4 ms·

i am sure that represents a segment of america... that was what people were told to come to grips w/ in 2016, that we had abandoned rural america and how we "go

i am sure that represents a segment of america... that was what people were told to come to grips w/ in 2016, that we had abandoned rural america and how we "got" trump because of it. i don't buy that narrative now. i've felt i've bent over backwards to try to listen and in the end we've just moved further over. but looking at my small window in the midwest, it's not about economic desperation. most have actually voted against their own ideals economically. it's a perceived cultural war on "conservative" ideals from the "evil" liberal machine. i don't know what the solution is to bridge that divide.

scruple 6y ago
> i don't buy that narrative now. That narrative was 20 years in the making, at least. My father stopped working in 2002, at 52. He was essentially force retired, as the glass plant he was a technician at moved to India, but he had no retirement planning that accounted for starting retirement at 52. And, for the record, they're okay today, but it was in no small part to my own sacrifice, in my 20s, to help them keep their home and get back on their feet. The fact remains, he was simply unable to find work. And he had a health condition, to make matters worse. His story isn't unique, at least not to the places I am speaking about. I've heard this "voting against their own interests" rhetoric my entire life. It's misguided. These people have voted their entire lives and where did it get them? Broke and unemployed, forced to scrape by however they could. Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less.
- imtringued 6y ago
  Yeah but now it is too late for effective policies that could have helped these people. Simple government stimulus in labor intensive industries would be enough. It's not like there is a shortage of "pointless busy work" like upgrading internet connections. Just build fiber everywhere. Get people with low qualifications back to work.
- ookblah 6y ago
  then your father might be that segment i'm talking about, and i'm sorry that he was let down after working so faithfully for those years. i know fb isn't representative of a person's total views, but like the majority of my circle that leans conservative (i grew up smaller city, church goer blah blah, moved to coasts) just share the same stuff over and over. evil democrats doing xyz and we'll have socialism/communism, attack on "christian" ideals, all wrapped up in some religious/nationalistic garb. some might be economically struggling but it doesn't come out that way, or at least that doesn't appear to be their main thought. i feel perhaps in 2016 people did vote that way to have Trump shake things up, but after 4 years of seeing how he is... that they would do it again, actually, even MORE people would? not sure how to reconcile that.
- aj7 6y ago
  scruple is exactly right. We “educated professionals” and coders, etc. have to understand that economic changes have stripped the very dignity from millions of people.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  > Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less. But as it turned out, a vote for Trump was not a vote against the status quo after all. He got elected, had a cooperative congress, and then... what policies did he enact to help rural Americans like your father? Nothing! All he managed to achieve were (surprise,surprise) tax cuts for the wealthy. Maybe he could have done much for rural America economically, but he didn’t. And then they still voted for him! I don’t buy the narrative either. Nobody is voting for trump in 2020 because they really think he is going to help rural America economically. His actions have never matched his rhetoric.
jerry1979 6y ago
Out of curiosity, why would an American worker vote for a democrat? To get a Bronze Plan? To have no seat at the NAFTA table?
- watwut 6y ago
  I dont know, but workers actually do vote more for democrats then for republicans.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Considering that before the bronze plan, Republicans offered no plan, I don’t see why not. Additionally, it was Republicans who handicapped the ACA and a public option by pretty much every one of them being ideologically against improvements since any huge increase in healthcare for the people at the bottom would mean huge tax increases.
  - jerry1979 6y ago
    Republicans did have a plan: Obamacare is essentially the conservative-lite version of healthcare. Take a look at some of the differences between obamacare and a Heritage Foundation conservative dream plan: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/12/the-aca-v-the-heritage-plan-a-comparison-in-chart-form https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/12/the-aca-v-the-h... While examining the important differences between the plans in the chart towards the middle of the page, it is important to remember that this is the difference democrats bring to the table in terms of actual lived experiences for working people. The table highlights wonky specifics and continuations of the current system that all look the same in the wash. For working Americans, it is very difficult to see any substantial difference between the two parties. However, there are very large culture differences between the two which conveniently keeps the working class divided.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      What I meant was the Republicans had control of the legislative and executive branches when Bush was president, but they were not able to pass any legislation that would help people get access to healthcare. In fact, the only big legislation I recall Republicans passing in my lifetime is lowering taxes for some people and the Patriot Act/Homeland Security nonsense.
j8hn 6y ago
After the 2016 election I was really curious as to how Trump could be elected. Most of my peers brushed it off as dumb, racist white people, but I really wanted to understand. Especially since I had family who had voted for him who I don't consider to be dumb or racist. I'm from the coast and live in the city. When taking a road trip through the Midwest, it hit me that people from the rust belt and rural areas had to vote for his message. Honestly it was depressing to see the decaying factories and poverty stricken areas. He was giving them hope and was going to fight for them. Anyway, I may be wrong but that's just my perspective. Someone posted this video here yesterday with Steve Bannon explaining the populist movement and how Trump came to be president. There are multiple parts and this video is over two hours long but worth the watch. I'm not normally one to watch a video over half an hour and especially not Steve Bannon, but it's quite fascinating to hear this story and perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm5xxlajTW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm5xxlajTW0

scruple 6y ago

> i don't buy that narrative now. That narrative was 20 years in the making, at least. My father stopped working in 2002, at 52. He was essentially force retired, as the glass plant he was a technician at moved to India, but he had no retirement planning that accounted for starting retirement at 52. And, for the record, they're okay today, but it was in no small part to my own sacrifice, in my 20s, to help them keep their home and get back on their feet. The fact remains, he was simply unable to find work. And he had a health condition, to make matters worse. His story isn't unique, at least not to the places I am speaking about. I've heard this "voting against their own interests" rhetoric my entire life. It's misguided. These people have voted their entire lives and where did it get them? Broke and unemployed, forced to scrape by however they could. Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less.

imtringued 6y ago
Yeah but now it is too late for effective policies that could have helped these people. Simple government stimulus in labor intensive industries would be enough. It's not like there is a shortage of "pointless busy work" like upgrading internet connections. Just build fiber everywhere. Get people with low qualifications back to work.
ookblah 6y ago
then your father might be that segment i'm talking about, and i'm sorry that he was let down after working so faithfully for those years. i know fb isn't representative of a person's total views, but like the majority of my circle that leans conservative (i grew up smaller city, church goer blah blah, moved to coasts) just share the same stuff over and over. evil democrats doing xyz and we'll have socialism/communism, attack on "christian" ideals, all wrapped up in some religious/nationalistic garb. some might be economically struggling but it doesn't come out that way, or at least that doesn't appear to be their main thought. i feel perhaps in 2016 people did vote that way to have Trump shake things up, but after 4 years of seeing how he is... that they would do it again, actually, even MORE people would? not sure how to reconcile that.
aj7 6y ago
scruple is exactly right. We “educated professionals” and coders, etc. have to understand that economic changes have stripped the very dignity from millions of people.
ryandrake 6y ago
> Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less. But as it turned out, a vote for Trump was not a vote against the status quo after all. He got elected, had a cooperative congress, and then... what policies did he enact to help rural Americans like your father? Nothing! All he managed to achieve were (surprise,surprise) tax cuts for the wealthy. Maybe he could have done much for rural America economically, but he didn’t. And then they still voted for him! I don’t buy the narrative either. Nobody is voting for trump in 2020 because they really think he is going to help rural America economically. His actions have never matched his rhetoric.

jerry1979 6y ago

Out of curiosity, why would an American worker vote for a democrat? To get a Bronze Plan? To have no seat at the NAFTA table?

watwut 6y ago
I dont know, but workers actually do vote more for democrats then for republicans.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
Considering that before the bronze plan, Republicans offered no plan, I don’t see why not. Additionally, it was Republicans who handicapped the ACA and a public option by pretty much every one of them being ideologically against improvements since any huge increase in healthcare for the people at the bottom would mean huge tax increases.
- jerry1979 6y ago
  Republicans did have a plan: Obamacare is essentially the conservative-lite version of healthcare. Take a look at some of the differences between obamacare and a Heritage Foundation conservative dream plan: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/12/the-aca-v-the-heritage-plan-a-comparison-in-chart-form https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/12/the-aca-v-the-h... While examining the important differences between the plans in the chart towards the middle of the page, it is important to remember that this is the difference democrats bring to the table in terms of actual lived experiences for working people. The table highlights wonky specifics and continuations of the current system that all look the same in the wash. For working Americans, it is very difficult to see any substantial difference between the two parties. However, there are very large culture differences between the two which conveniently keeps the working class divided.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    What I meant was the Republicans had control of the legislative and executive branches when Bush was president, but they were not able to pass any legislation that would help people get access to healthcare. In fact, the only big legislation I recall Republicans passing in my lifetime is lowering taxes for some people and the Patriot Act/Homeland Security nonsense.

j8hn 6y ago

After the 2016 election I was really curious as to how Trump could be elected. Most of my peers brushed it off as dumb, racist white people, but I really wanted to understand. Especially since I had family who had voted for him who I don't consider to be dumb or racist. I'm from the coast and live in the city. When taking a road trip through the Midwest, it hit me that people from the rust belt and rural areas had to vote for his message. Honestly it was depressing to see the decaying factories and poverty stricken areas. He was giving them hope and was going to fight for them. Anyway, I may be wrong but that's just my perspective. Someone posted this video here yesterday with Steve Bannon explaining the populist movement and how Trump came to be president. There are multiple parts and this video is over two hours long but worth the watch. I'm not normally one to watch a video over half an hour and especially not Steve Bannon, but it's quite fascinating to hear this story and perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm5xxlajTW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm5xxlajTW0