7 ms·

Look at the profiles of people arrested. Those were not desperate people left without jobs.

idlewords 6y ago
This is a common error in thinking. People act based on the perception (true or not) that their future is being taken away from them, far more than on current circumstance. People will endure shocking poverty if they are sure it means a better life for their kids, and people in very comfortable circumstances will rise up if they think they're headed for a decline.
scruple 6y ago
They were not, no. My Dad and I spoke on the phone today. They live in a depressed town in rural Ohio. He said, "I can see 9 Trump flags from the front porch." _Those_ people cannot afford to fly to D.C. They are desperate and they do feel abandoned. I have a hard time not saying here that they are justified in that feeling. It really does look like they've been abandoned. This is how we ended up with Trump in the first place...
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  It's difficult to see how to fix that though. A lot of the poorer regions in the UK had money pumped in from the EU yet they still voted for Brexit.
  - scruple 6y ago
    I don't know enough about the UK to comment on Brexit. I am familiar with rural, depressed regions of America, in particular in the Rust Belt (and the South). We need to figure out a way to address the lack of upward mobility, the lack of a social safety net, etc... People want some pretty basic things here. Like healthcare, affordable housing, decent schools, and jobs that pay a living wage. Nothing crazy. These things were the bedrock of the Sanders campaign, both times. From their perspective (and from mine, too, though today I live in a place where _most_ of these things are being met)... If the Government won't ensure these needs can be met than what purpose does the Government serve?
    - thewarrior 6y ago
      If they want government assistance then why do they vote for small government republicans?
      - scruple 6y ago
        Because they've been very cynically manipulated to vote for those people.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        Because they want government assistance for them, but not for everyone (re:minorities). Descendants of slaves and other poor minorities have been in the bottom rungs of society for a long time, but they didn’t have the voting power to affect change. The white people who can no longer consider themselves middle class (and above the bottom rungs) are now seeking change. But still not change for everyone, just enough change to help them maintain “class” superiority”. President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Edit: This probably doesn’t have anything specifically to do with white people, but it’s a tribal mechanic that exists everywhere, especially when the relative positions of power are changing. No one likes losing power. You don’t see this though when the whole pie is increasing in size, and everyone’s share is increasing, and relative positions are maintained. But I would say automation and outsourcing are, at the least, reconfiguring the relative positions of various tribes.
    - flukus 6y ago
      > Like healthcare, affordable housing, decent schools, and jobs that pay a living wage. Nothing crazy. These things were the bedrock of the Sanders campaign, both times. The hard one is jobs, it seems like acceptance that jobs aren't coming back might be the only solution. The worldwide trend for many decades has been people moving from rural to large urban areas with less and less people involved with primary production. It's really hard to see an end to that trend anytime soon. I don't know what form that acceptance will take, but I doubt Trump voters will be keen on UBI.
- ookblah 6y ago
  i am sure that represents a segment of america... that was what people were told to come to grips w/ in 2016, that we had abandoned rural america and how we "got" trump because of it. i don't buy that narrative now. i've felt i've bent over backwards to try to listen and in the end we've just moved further over. but looking at my small window in the midwest, it's not about economic desperation. most have actually voted against their own ideals economically. it's a perceived cultural war on "conservative" ideals from the "evil" liberal machine. i don't know what the solution is to bridge that divide.
  - scruple 6y ago
    > i don't buy that narrative now. That narrative was 20 years in the making, at least. My father stopped working in 2002, at 52. He was essentially force retired, as the glass plant he was a technician at moved to India, but he had no retirement planning that accounted for starting retirement at 52. And, for the record, they're okay today, but it was in no small part to my own sacrifice, in my 20s, to help them keep their home and get back on their feet. The fact remains, he was simply unable to find work. And he had a health condition, to make matters worse. His story isn't unique, at least not to the places I am speaking about. I've heard this "voting against their own interests" rhetoric my entire life. It's misguided. These people have voted their entire lives and where did it get them? Broke and unemployed, forced to scrape by however they could. Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less.
    - imtringued 6y ago
      Yeah but now it is too late for effective policies that could have helped these people. Simple government stimulus in labor intensive industries would be enough. It's not like there is a shortage of "pointless busy work" like upgrading internet connections. Just build fiber everywhere. Get people with low qualifications back to work.
    - ookblah 6y ago
      then your father might be that segment i'm talking about, and i'm sorry that he was let down after working so faithfully for those years. i know fb isn't representative of a person's total views, but like the majority of my circle that leans conservative (i grew up smaller city, church goer blah blah, moved to coasts) just share the same stuff over and over. evil democrats doing xyz and we'll have socialism/communism, attack on "christian" ideals, all wrapped up in some religious/nationalistic garb. some might be economically struggling but it doesn't come out that way, or at least that doesn't appear to be their main thought. i feel perhaps in 2016 people did vote that way to have Trump shake things up, but after 4 years of seeing how he is... that they would do it again, actually, even MORE people would? not sure how to reconcile that.
- watwut 6y ago
  If you look at statistics, poor people in America tilt democrats. Lower middle class, middle class and higher tilt Trump. Granted race is even better predictor. But, it is simply not true that poor and low income people would be more likely to vote for Trump or constituted his base. That does not mean no poor person ever vote for Trump.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > If you look at statistics, poor people in America tilt democrats. Lower middle class, middle class and higher tilt Trump. If you look at 2020 exit polls, people making under $50k and $50k up to $100k lean Biden, people making $100k and up lean Trump. “Class” is more complicated, because within a socioeconomic class, income varies considerably by age. And Biden won younger voters (depending on the categories mused, up through 30-44 or 40-49), while Trump won older voters. If you look at education, (which also varies a bit by age, but is tied to class and less age variable than income), Biden won every education level except No college degree (and if you combine white/non-white with education level, he won every combination except whites with no college degree.)
- imtringued 6y ago
  Yeah but Trump isn't doing anything for them. Remember he is just a rich business man looking out for himself. Tax cuts for businesses don't help the poor, especially when those businesses don't have to employ American labor. He's also against some of the few labor intensive industries that are still growing.
aj7 6y ago
Exactly. And I noticed they were much younger and in much better condition than the people attending live Trump events.

This is a common error in thinking. People act based on the perception (true or not) that their future is being taken away from them, far more than on current circumstance. People will endure shocking poverty if they are sure it means a better life for their kids, and people in very comfortable circumstances will rise up if they think they're headed for a decline.

scruple 6y ago

They were not, no. My Dad and I spoke on the phone today. They live in a depressed town in rural Ohio. He said, "I can see 9 Trump flags from the front porch." _Those_ people cannot afford to fly to D.C. They are desperate and they do feel abandoned. I have a hard time not saying here that they are justified in that feeling. It really does look like they've been abandoned. This is how we ended up with Trump in the first place...

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
It's difficult to see how to fix that though. A lot of the poorer regions in the UK had money pumped in from the EU yet they still voted for Brexit.
- scruple 6y ago
  I don't know enough about the UK to comment on Brexit. I am familiar with rural, depressed regions of America, in particular in the Rust Belt (and the South). We need to figure out a way to address the lack of upward mobility, the lack of a social safety net, etc... People want some pretty basic things here. Like healthcare, affordable housing, decent schools, and jobs that pay a living wage. Nothing crazy. These things were the bedrock of the Sanders campaign, both times. From their perspective (and from mine, too, though today I live in a place where _most_ of these things are being met)... If the Government won't ensure these needs can be met than what purpose does the Government serve?
  - thewarrior 6y ago
    If they want government assistance then why do they vote for small government republicans?
    - scruple 6y ago
      Because they've been very cynically manipulated to vote for those people.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Because they want government assistance for them, but not for everyone (re:minorities). Descendants of slaves and other poor minorities have been in the bottom rungs of society for a long time, but they didn’t have the voting power to affect change. The white people who can no longer consider themselves middle class (and above the bottom rungs) are now seeking change. But still not change for everyone, just enough change to help them maintain “class” superiority”. President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Edit: This probably doesn’t have anything specifically to do with white people, but it’s a tribal mechanic that exists everywhere, especially when the relative positions of power are changing. No one likes losing power. You don’t see this though when the whole pie is increasing in size, and everyone’s share is increasing, and relative positions are maintained. But I would say automation and outsourcing are, at the least, reconfiguring the relative positions of various tribes.
  - flukus 6y ago
    > Like healthcare, affordable housing, decent schools, and jobs that pay a living wage. Nothing crazy. These things were the bedrock of the Sanders campaign, both times. The hard one is jobs, it seems like acceptance that jobs aren't coming back might be the only solution. The worldwide trend for many decades has been people moving from rural to large urban areas with less and less people involved with primary production. It's really hard to see an end to that trend anytime soon. I don't know what form that acceptance will take, but I doubt Trump voters will be keen on UBI.
ookblah 6y ago
i am sure that represents a segment of america... that was what people were told to come to grips w/ in 2016, that we had abandoned rural america and how we "got" trump because of it. i don't buy that narrative now. i've felt i've bent over backwards to try to listen and in the end we've just moved further over. but looking at my small window in the midwest, it's not about economic desperation. most have actually voted against their own ideals economically. it's a perceived cultural war on "conservative" ideals from the "evil" liberal machine. i don't know what the solution is to bridge that divide.
- scruple 6y ago
  > i don't buy that narrative now. That narrative was 20 years in the making, at least. My father stopped working in 2002, at 52. He was essentially force retired, as the glass plant he was a technician at moved to India, but he had no retirement planning that accounted for starting retirement at 52. And, for the record, they're okay today, but it was in no small part to my own sacrifice, in my 20s, to help them keep their home and get back on their feet. The fact remains, he was simply unable to find work. And he had a health condition, to make matters worse. His story isn't unique, at least not to the places I am speaking about. I've heard this "voting against their own interests" rhetoric my entire life. It's misguided. These people have voted their entire lives and where did it get them? Broke and unemployed, forced to scrape by however they could. Trump won specifically because he was a vote AGAINST the status quo, which had stopped working for these people decades ago... Nothing more, nothing less.
  - imtringued 6y ago
    Yeah but now it is too late for effective policies that could have helped these people. Simple government stimulus in labor intensive industries would be enough. It's not like there is a shortage of "pointless busy work" like upgrading internet connections. Just build fiber everywhere. Get people with low qualifications back to work.
  - ookblah 6y ago
    then your father might be that segment i'm talking about, and i'm sorry that he was let down after working so faithfully for those years. i know fb isn't representative of a person's total views, but like the majority of my circle that leans conservative (i grew up smaller city, church goer blah blah, moved to coasts) just share the same stuff over and over. evil democrats doing xyz and we'll have socialism/communism, attack on "christian" ideals, all wrapped up in some religious/nationalistic garb. some might be economically struggling but it doesn't come out that way, or at least that doesn't appear to be their main thought. i feel perhaps in 2016 people did vote that way to have Trump shake things up, but after 4 years of seeing how he is... that they would do it again, actually, even MORE people would? not sure how to reconcile that.
watwut 6y ago
If you look at statistics, poor people in America tilt democrats. Lower middle class, middle class and higher tilt Trump. Granted race is even better predictor. But, it is simply not true that poor and low income people would be more likely to vote for Trump or constituted his base. That does not mean no poor person ever vote for Trump.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > If you look at statistics, poor people in America tilt democrats. Lower middle class, middle class and higher tilt Trump. If you look at 2020 exit polls, people making under $50k and $50k up to $100k lean Biden, people making $100k and up lean Trump. “Class” is more complicated, because within a socioeconomic class, income varies considerably by age. And Biden won younger voters (depending on the categories mused, up through 30-44 or 40-49), while Trump won older voters. If you look at education, (which also varies a bit by age, but is tied to class and less age variable than income), Biden won every education level except No college degree (and if you combine white/non-white with education level, he won every combination except whites with no college degree.)
imtringued 6y ago
Yeah but Trump isn't doing anything for them. Remember he is just a rich business man looking out for himself. Tax cuts for businesses don't help the poor, especially when those businesses don't have to employ American labor. He's also against some of the few labor intensive industries that are still growing.

aj7 6y ago

Exactly. And I noticed they were much younger and in much better condition than the people attending live Trump events.