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Democracy requires freedom of speech, and to abridge that freedom is to destroy Democracy. A building does not a government make. Whatever people harmed, windo

Democracy requires freedom of speech, and to abridge that freedom is to destroy Democracy. A building does not a government make. Whatever people harmed, windows broken, our government is not any worse off functionally than it was the day before. Yet this will be used to pass harmful laws, and like 9/11 it will do infinitely more damage to Democracy than whatever the original attackers did.

malcolmgreaves 6y ago
Your post reads as if it's downplaying the significance of Wednesday's failed coup attempt, and the incredible ramifications of it.
- ordinaryradical 6y ago
  It is downplaying. What happened was unprecedented political violence and the only reason to make an argument like the parent is because you cannot admit it deserves a serious, judicial response.
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    > What happened was unprecedented political violence... Well, there were the little matters of the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War. And a few others of varying scope in this incomplete list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_Unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War (This isn't to disagree with you; or to downplay the seriousness or support the events of the sixth.) Edit: List formatting
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation's leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? All three branches of the government are whole (and save the executive, functioning, but the executive wasn't functioning before the coup either) and business is moving on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't respond with physical security, press charges appropriately or react - but calling it a coup attempt is something that not even the NYTimes supports: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-coup-attempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation’s leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? I see you understood the word “coup” but the “failed…attempt” surrounding that word. Attempted murder doesn’t stop being a serious offense because no one died, and attempted coup doesn’t become a minor event because only a handful of people died and the attempt to improperly seize power by force failed.
  - miguelmota 6y ago
    A successful coup or a failed coup, is still a coup. We can argue semantics but based on what happened it's clear this was a poorly executed attempt to undermine the government and seize political officials.
  - desertrider12 6y ago
    We didn't lose any branches of government, but the proceedings of the legislature were disrupted for most of a day. I'm sure if they had been working on an emergency thing and not a formality that it could be continued in a bunker but it still feels like a huge deal to me. Maybe it's mostly symbolic, idk. I agree though, it doesn't seem like a coup since they got in and then had no plan for what to do once there. It was just unfocused anger.
ismaildonmez 6y ago
For God’s sake, they were chanting “Hang Mike Pence”, make no mistake this could have been way worse if it wasn’t for the Secret Service and some brave police officer who mislead the mob away from Senate.
majormajor 6y ago
Democracy requires people to put a very high value on the preservation of democracy. It requires work, more than any abstract principles. Hiding behind those principles to excuse doing things that directly endanger democracy is shameful.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
miguelmota 6y ago
Speech that incites imminent lawless action is not protected speech, for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
joshgel 6y ago
Do all Western democracies guarantee Freedom of Speech like in the US? I seem to remember reading this is actually a US-centric view that isn’t universally shared. Eg nazi slogans in present day Germany. Do we actually need to guarantee universal Freedom of Speech to have a democracy?
- nullsense 6y ago
  Mostly what you need is sensible people that value democracy. That's all that's really required. If you have that the rest tends to work itself out, if you don't have that then nothing else matters.
- staticman2 6y ago
  All Democracy's, including the United States, have limits on freedom of speech. Try publishing Harry Potter fanfiction in book stores in America and see what the court system does to you. Try showing female nipples on network television and see what the legal system does to you. Try sticking the Apple logo on your product without Apple's permission and see what the court system does to you. Free speech= democracy isn't a very nuanced view.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The US does value freedom of speech greater than pretty much every other country on the planet. Just because it’s not absolute doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    > Try showing female nipples on network television I think this is the US specific part :p. The rest I all agree with
- aksss 6y ago
  England has been pretty notoriously abridging the "right to offend" for years now. And as you point out, there's Germany. > Do we actually need [FoS]? It probably depends on how much you trust the government to be "self-regulated" in prioritizing the liberty of the people over time. Democracy is not the natural state of things by any means.
triceratops 6y ago
> A building does not a government make. That sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship might say. "Yeah, he burned my wardrobe but I didn't like those clothes anyway". Please seek help.

malcolmgreaves 6y ago

Your post reads as if it's downplaying the significance of Wednesday's failed coup attempt, and the incredible ramifications of it.

ordinaryradical 6y ago
It is downplaying. What happened was unprecedented political violence and the only reason to make an argument like the parent is because you cannot admit it deserves a serious, judicial response.
- cgriswald 6y ago
  > What happened was unprecedented political violence... Well, there were the little matters of the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War. And a few others of varying scope in this incomplete list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_Unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War (This isn't to disagree with you; or to downplay the seriousness or support the events of the sixth.) Edit: List formatting
vorpalhex 6y ago
Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation's leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? All three branches of the government are whole (and save the executive, functioning, but the executive wasn't functioning before the coup either) and business is moving on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't respond with physical security, press charges appropriately or react - but calling it a coup attempt is something that not even the NYTimes supports: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-coup-attempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-...
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation’s leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? I see you understood the word “coup” but the “failed…attempt” surrounding that word. Attempted murder doesn’t stop being a serious offense because no one died, and attempted coup doesn’t become a minor event because only a handful of people died and the attempt to improperly seize power by force failed.
- miguelmota 6y ago
  A successful coup or a failed coup, is still a coup. We can argue semantics but based on what happened it's clear this was a poorly executed attempt to undermine the government and seize political officials.
- desertrider12 6y ago
  We didn't lose any branches of government, but the proceedings of the legislature were disrupted for most of a day. I'm sure if they had been working on an emergency thing and not a formality that it could be continued in a bunker but it still feels like a huge deal to me. Maybe it's mostly symbolic, idk. I agree though, it doesn't seem like a coup since they got in and then had no plan for what to do once there. It was just unfocused anger.

ismaildonmez 6y ago

For God’s sake, they were chanting “Hang Mike Pence”, make no mistake this could have been way worse if it wasn’t for the Secret Service and some brave police officer who mislead the mob away from Senate.

majormajor 6y ago

Democracy requires people to put a very high value on the preservation of democracy. It requires work, more than any abstract principles. Hiding behind those principles to excuse doing things that directly endanger democracy is shameful.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

miguelmota 6y ago

Speech that incites imminent lawless action is not protected speech, for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

joshgel 6y ago

Do all Western democracies guarantee Freedom of Speech like in the US? I seem to remember reading this is actually a US-centric view that isn’t universally shared. Eg nazi slogans in present day Germany. Do we actually need to guarantee universal Freedom of Speech to have a democracy?

nullsense 6y ago
Mostly what you need is sensible people that value democracy. That's all that's really required. If you have that the rest tends to work itself out, if you don't have that then nothing else matters.
staticman2 6y ago
All Democracy's, including the United States, have limits on freedom of speech. Try publishing Harry Potter fanfiction in book stores in America and see what the court system does to you. Try showing female nipples on network television and see what the legal system does to you. Try sticking the Apple logo on your product without Apple's permission and see what the court system does to you. Free speech= democracy isn't a very nuanced view.
- refurb 6y ago
  The US does value freedom of speech greater than pretty much every other country on the planet. Just because it’s not absolute doesn’t mean it’s not true.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  > Try showing female nipples on network television I think this is the US specific part :p. The rest I all agree with
aksss 6y ago
England has been pretty notoriously abridging the "right to offend" for years now. And as you point out, there's Germany. > Do we actually need [FoS]? It probably depends on how much you trust the government to be "self-regulated" in prioritizing the liberty of the people over time. Democracy is not the natural state of things by any means.

triceratops 6y ago

> A building does not a government make. That sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship might say. "Yeah, he burned my wardrobe but I didn't like those clothes anyway". Please seek help.