4 ms·

They stopped being protestors the second they stormed the capitol looking to kill or kidnap elected officials. They’re insurrectionists, and being charged as su

They stopped being protestors the second they stormed the capitol looking to kill or kidnap elected officials. They’re insurrectionists, and being charged as such.

Rebelgecko 6y ago
Were any of the 3 that had heart issues/strokes actually in the Capitol building?
- newacct583 6y ago
  FWIW: the legal tresspass started several hundred feet away from the building proper. There was a police barrier in place that was the first thing violated.
- cma 6y ago
  There was a lady with a don't tread on me flag that was trampled to death in a crowd/mob squeeze against the police: https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/22221070/woman-trump-supporter-trampled-death-us-capitol https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/22221070/woman-trump-sup... If it was a heart issue there was a bit more to it than simple heart attack.
  - nostromo 6y ago
    There are conflicting reports of how she died. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rosanne-boyland-died-capitol-riot-promised-stand-sidelines-sister-says/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rosanne-boyland-died-capitol-ri... The Onionesque headline is apparently too good to fact check though, because lots of media outlets are running with it for laughs.
    - cma 6y ago
      I think both accounts of he friend that was with her and the detective that contacted the family could easily be simultaneously true: she could have been crushed, pulled out, and then died of cardiac arrest later, and tried to indicate that in my original post where I said more Han a simple heart attack (as in instead a heart attack triggered by trauma, etc.).
silexia 6y ago
There was an insurrection last week. What caused it? If you took the beliefs of the people involved in the insurrection to be true, you probably would join an insurrection as well. They believe that an election was stolen and that democracy has been destroyed in the United States and replaced with some form of a deep state dictatorship. Trump supporters believe this because they have been lied to repeatedly for years without corrections they found to be believable. How do we correct these firmly held (but false) beliefs? We need to hold people who lie accountable. If a talk show host makes a claim that an election was fraudulently stolen, that host needs to be able to provide real evidence to support that claim in a court of law or face civil / criminal penalties for disseminating false information. Many people on HN hate the removal of Trump from Twitter and Facebook, and the removal of Parler from AWS... but private companies always have the right to choose who they do business with, barring a very limited set of protected classes. "Big Tech" are private businesses that most conservatives would support being able to exercise their freedom to choose who to do business with, and Big Tech made the right decision in removing people and organizations from their platforms who have repeatedly tried to promote harmful lies. Beyond holding liars accountable, we do need to do a better job of making the truth more easily accessed. Perhaps holding elections in some sort of open source / public format would help... then you could look up your own vote and the votes of your friends to confirm, and also double check the counts across the nation.
- majormajor 6y ago
  > Beyond holding liars accountable, we do need to do a better job of making the truth more easily accessed. Perhaps holding elections in some sort of open source / public format would help... then you could look up your own vote and the votes of your friends to confirm, and also double check the counts across the nation. Private votes is itself a practice with very strong reasoning behind it, to prevent coercion and such. So I can't really get behind this. But yes, it points directly at the problem right now: if recounts and audits overseen by agencies run by members of their own political party aren't enough for these people, what would be? How far should we be asked to go to appease these people? Could we even reasonably appease them? When others are constantly shouting from their TV that they're being abused?
zaroth 6y ago
Has anyone actually been charged with sedition, treason, or insurrection?
- jacobriis 6y ago
  No they've been charged with misdemeanor "entry into a restricted area" and or felony "violent entry into a restricted area and disorderly conduct".
- NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  FBI has indicated that they are in the process of putting together a larger case.
- bchmod777 6y ago
  Well, unfortunately they can't be charged with the most serious charges until Trump leaves office, as it's highly likely that he would pardon them. If anyone is shocked by this... why? He pardoned mass murderers that were employed by Betsy Devos's family's mercenary company a few weeks ago; pardoning his supporters is what he's hoping to do.
- AniseAbyss 6y ago
  No, they pulled their white privilege get out of jail card.
- dang 6y ago
  You've been using HN primarily for political battle. We ban accounts that do that (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...), regardless of which politics they're battling for. It's against the site rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and destroys what HN is supposed to exist for, which is curious conversation on a wide range of topics.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    I think a lot of people have been using HN for political battle since January 6th, but I stand by my comment history, and I think that I more than earn an ongoing voice in the HN community with my contributions each week. I don't think it's fair to say I have been using "HN primarily for political battle". When I do post on political threads, I try to do so with reasonable counter-points, logical debate, and appeal to avoid hyperbole and flame wars. I am certainly not perfect, but that is my aim. I'll try to do better. Over the last 2 weeks I've posted 48 threads, 30 of which were non-political. Some of the highlights; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25684154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25684154 (+128) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585764 (+31) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25697136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25697136 (+30) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25589742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25589742 (+6 posted late, underrated) Of my rare political post, which of course have been +3 sigma more frequent since the 6th, here are some that I fully stand behind; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25695844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25695844 (+21) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25688330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25688330 (+10) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25691821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25691821 (+9) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711604 (+4) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711572 (+1, was in fact disinformation) And in full disclosure, some that were less substantive; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677651 (+3) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25680846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25680846 (+1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25710688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25710688 (-2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25693504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25693504 (-4) I'm not sure if you took issue with this particular post, which is currently (+12) and a totally fair point to question an incorrect factual claim by throw_m239339, who by the way I usually agree with. EDIT: I see that you posted a ton of these warnings throughout the site on many profiles, which helps me feel less singled out. Again, I'll try to do better. You have an impossible task the last 6 days.
tomcam 6y ago
As has been said so often in the past year about other protests, they were “mostly peaceful“. It would be very difficult to prosecute on charges such as kidnapping, etc. because they are generally not true and very difficult to prove. I assume you feel the same way about the antifa and BLM protesters who stormed the houses of the mayor of Seattle, the governor of Washington, and the mayor of Portland?
- rovolo 6y ago
  I'm only familiar with the Jenny Durkan (mayor of Seattle) incident. However, I don't think graffiti on her fence and the street are really the same type of 'storming'. From her public complaint: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13YZiZXv6votoHh_CjhxEUhgth_ZaqAGE/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/13YZiZXv6votoHh_CjhxEUhgth_Z... "Using her official position to lead a march to my home, despite the fact that it was publicly known I was not there, and she and organizers knew that my address was protected under the state confidentiality program because of threats against me due largely to my work as U.S. Attorney. All of us have joined hundreds of demonstrations across the City, but Councilmember Sawant and her followers chose to do so with reckless disregard of the safety of my family and children. In addition, during or after Councilmember Sawant’s speech at that rally, her followers vandalized my home by spray-painting obscenities. (Photo attached)"
dragonwriter 6y ago
> They’re insurrectionists, and being charged as such. They are not yet being charged as such (and I’d be surprised if insurrection was a charge, though “seditious conspiracy” seems likely a fairly easy case to make). Mostly, the charges are much simpler (which is unsurprising; its easy to survive a probable cause hearing for “unlawful entry to a restricted building or grounds”, it takes a lot more evidence for seditious conspiracy, treason, insurrection, conspiracy to impede or injure an officer of the united states, or any of the myriad of less simple but more serious crimes they might end up charged with as further investigation occurs.)

They stopped being protestors the second they stormed the capitol looking to kill or kidnap elected officials. They’re insurrectionists, and being charged as such.

Rebelgecko 6y ago

Were any of the 3 that had heart issues/strokes actually in the Capitol building?

newacct583 6y ago
FWIW: the legal tresspass started several hundred feet away from the building proper. There was a police barrier in place that was the first thing violated.
cma 6y ago
There was a lady with a don't tread on me flag that was trampled to death in a crowd/mob squeeze against the police: https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/22221070/woman-trump-supporter-trampled-death-us-capitol https://www.revolt.tv/news/2021/1/8/22221070/woman-trump-sup... If it was a heart issue there was a bit more to it than simple heart attack.
- nostromo 6y ago
  There are conflicting reports of how she died. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rosanne-boyland-died-capitol-riot-promised-stand-sidelines-sister-says/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rosanne-boyland-died-capitol-ri... The Onionesque headline is apparently too good to fact check though, because lots of media outlets are running with it for laughs.
  - cma 6y ago
    I think both accounts of he friend that was with her and the detective that contacted the family could easily be simultaneously true: she could have been crushed, pulled out, and then died of cardiac arrest later, and tried to indicate that in my original post where I said more Han a simple heart attack (as in instead a heart attack triggered by trauma, etc.).

silexia 6y ago

There was an insurrection last week. What caused it? If you took the beliefs of the people involved in the insurrection to be true, you probably would join an insurrection as well. They believe that an election was stolen and that democracy has been destroyed in the United States and replaced with some form of a deep state dictatorship. Trump supporters believe this because they have been lied to repeatedly for years without corrections they found to be believable. How do we correct these firmly held (but false) beliefs? We need to hold people who lie accountable. If a talk show host makes a claim that an election was fraudulently stolen, that host needs to be able to provide real evidence to support that claim in a court of law or face civil / criminal penalties for disseminating false information. Many people on HN hate the removal of Trump from Twitter and Facebook, and the removal of Parler from AWS... but private companies always have the right to choose who they do business with, barring a very limited set of protected classes. "Big Tech" are private businesses that most conservatives would support being able to exercise their freedom to choose who to do business with, and Big Tech made the right decision in removing people and organizations from their platforms who have repeatedly tried to promote harmful lies. Beyond holding liars accountable, we do need to do a better job of making the truth more easily accessed. Perhaps holding elections in some sort of open source / public format would help... then you could look up your own vote and the votes of your friends to confirm, and also double check the counts across the nation.

majormajor 6y ago
> Beyond holding liars accountable, we do need to do a better job of making the truth more easily accessed. Perhaps holding elections in some sort of open source / public format would help... then you could look up your own vote and the votes of your friends to confirm, and also double check the counts across the nation. Private votes is itself a practice with very strong reasoning behind it, to prevent coercion and such. So I can't really get behind this. But yes, it points directly at the problem right now: if recounts and audits overseen by agencies run by members of their own political party aren't enough for these people, what would be? How far should we be asked to go to appease these people? Could we even reasonably appease them? When others are constantly shouting from their TV that they're being abused?

zaroth 6y ago

Has anyone actually been charged with sedition, treason, or insurrection?

jacobriis 6y ago
No they've been charged with misdemeanor "entry into a restricted area" and or felony "violent entry into a restricted area and disorderly conduct".
NikolaeVarius 6y ago
FBI has indicated that they are in the process of putting together a larger case.
bchmod777 6y ago
Well, unfortunately they can't be charged with the most serious charges until Trump leaves office, as it's highly likely that he would pardon them. If anyone is shocked by this... why? He pardoned mass murderers that were employed by Betsy Devos's family's mercenary company a few weeks ago; pardoning his supporters is what he's hoping to do.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
No, they pulled their white privilege get out of jail card.
dang 6y ago
You've been using HN primarily for political battle. We ban accounts that do that (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0&query=primarily%20test%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...), regardless of which politics they're battling for. It's against the site rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and destroys what HN is supposed to exist for, which is curious conversation on a wide range of topics.
- zaroth 6y ago
  I think a lot of people have been using HN for political battle since January 6th, but I stand by my comment history, and I think that I more than earn an ongoing voice in the HN community with my contributions each week. I don't think it's fair to say I have been using "HN primarily for political battle". When I do post on political threads, I try to do so with reasonable counter-points, logical debate, and appeal to avoid hyperbole and flame wars. I am certainly not perfect, but that is my aim. I'll try to do better. Over the last 2 weeks I've posted 48 threads, 30 of which were non-political. Some of the highlights; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25684154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25684154 (+128) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25585764 (+31) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25697136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25697136 (+30) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25589742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25589742 (+6 posted late, underrated) Of my rare political post, which of course have been +3 sigma more frequent since the 6th, here are some that I fully stand behind; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25695844 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25695844 (+21) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25688330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25688330 (+10) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25691821 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25691821 (+9) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711604 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711604 (+4) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25711572 (+1, was in fact disinformation) And in full disclosure, some that were less substantive; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25677651 (+3) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25680846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25680846 (+1) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25710688 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25710688 (-2) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25693504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25693504 (-4) I'm not sure if you took issue with this particular post, which is currently (+12) and a totally fair point to question an incorrect factual claim by throw_m239339, who by the way I usually agree with. EDIT: I see that you posted a ton of these warnings throughout the site on many profiles, which helps me feel less singled out. Again, I'll try to do better. You have an impossible task the last 6 days.

tomcam 6y ago

As has been said so often in the past year about other protests, they were “mostly peaceful“. It would be very difficult to prosecute on charges such as kidnapping, etc. because they are generally not true and very difficult to prove. I assume you feel the same way about the antifa and BLM protesters who stormed the houses of the mayor of Seattle, the governor of Washington, and the mayor of Portland?

rovolo 6y ago
I'm only familiar with the Jenny Durkan (mayor of Seattle) incident. However, I don't think graffiti on her fence and the street are really the same type of 'storming'. From her public complaint: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13YZiZXv6votoHh_CjhxEUhgth_ZaqAGE/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/13YZiZXv6votoHh_CjhxEUhgth_Z... "Using her official position to lead a march to my home, despite the fact that it was publicly known I was not there, and she and organizers knew that my address was protected under the state confidentiality program because of threats against me due largely to my work as U.S. Attorney. All of us have joined hundreds of demonstrations across the City, but Councilmember Sawant and her followers chose to do so with reckless disregard of the safety of my family and children. In addition, during or after Councilmember Sawant’s speech at that rally, her followers vandalized my home by spray-painting obscenities. (Photo attached)"

dragonwriter 6y ago

> They’re insurrectionists, and being charged as such. They are not yet being charged as such (and I’d be surprised if insurrection was a charge, though “seditious conspiracy” seems likely a fairly easy case to make). Mostly, the charges are much simpler (which is unsurprising; its easy to survive a probable cause hearing for “unlawful entry to a restricted building or grounds”, it takes a lot more evidence for seditious conspiracy, treason, insurrection, conspiracy to impede or injure an officer of the united states, or any of the myriad of less simple but more serious crimes they might end up charged with as further investigation occurs.)