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You're not wrong, but you're missing the point. So long as those people feel that they don't have a voice, they will earnestly believe they are victims of an o

You're not wrong, but you're missing the point. So long as those people feel that they don't have a voice, they will earnestly believe they are victims of an oppressive dictatorship. From their perspective, they're fighting for liberty the same as the Boston Tea Party did way back when.

majormajor 6y ago
Their perspective is the result of people lying to them for personal power and profit for years. Blame those people, not the people trying to figure out maybe-too-late how to stop their victims from burning the whole country down.
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  I wasn't blaming anybody for anything. I'm trying to provide some perspective to help understand the problem, instead of immediately cast blame. Honestly, your knee-jerk reaction is part of the problem.
  - majormajor 6y ago
    Why do you think it's a knee-jerk reaction? This has been happening for decades and I've been worried about it for decades... and I'm worried I wasn't pessimistic enough. Why aren't you blaming anyone for anything? Do you not think what's happening is bad?
    - Judgmentality 6y ago
      It's a knee-jerk reaction because my comment said nothing about blame, and your response was entirely about who to blame.
      - majormajor 6y ago
        Ah, I see, I view it as on-topic for the thread, though, since the thread-starting post from 'lettergram put blame on Twitter, etc, for the feelings of these potential protestors.
    - gwright 6y ago
      Because industrial strength blaming isn't going to get us out of this pickle. We need to be talking about ways to get everyone to cool down and take a time out. Instead all I see is efforts to blame, cancel, belittle, and disparage lots of people well beyond Trump and the people actually at the Capitol building. I see lots of careless talk that puts 70 million Americans in the category of "not worth listening to -- ever!". How well do you think that is going to work out? Lots of people seem to think that the unrest is wholly due to the election results, but the political polarization pre-dates Trump by many years.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  You're all missing the point. How these people feel when they are committing violence in the streets, (and especially in the capitol), is no more relevant to our response than the weather being 'clear' or 'partly cloudy'. Maybe I need to explain it another way: Is it relevant how a BLM rioter feels when he's looting a store? Sure, the black grandma who's at the peaceful BLM protest in the morning? How she feels is important. I definitely have a tendency to listen to that type of protester. The armed BLM protesters that come only in the dark of night to loot and burn? No. How they feel is irrelevant to my response to them. Same with these self proclaimed 'patriots'. The ones at unarmed peaceful protests matter. But, quick question for you: How many do you see at unarmed peaceful protests? That pretty much tells you all you need to know. I'm only ashamed I that I had to see the Capitol fall to realize that how these violent people feel shouldn't matter.
lettergram 6y ago
^ Indeed, I’m trying to offer the opposing view. Remember, currently the left are impeaching the president with 9 days left (literally taking any future office from him). Worse, some elected officials are saying the republicans involved in challenging the election integrity (which is constitutional and unrelated), aided in causing the “insurrection”. They feel they’re being backed into a corner.
- whateveracct 6y ago
  His impeachment seems valid enough to me. 9 days left doesn't matter - if the President acts unlawfully in his last week, it would be Congress' duty to impeach, convict, and ban from a future term.
- pixl97 6y ago
  Democracy has backed them into a corner, now they are rejecting democracy.
- fatbird 6y ago
  But they're not being backed into a corner. They're factually wrong about almost everything that motivated the riots on Jan. 6th. They're self-insulating in a media bubble designed to cater to them. When engaged in dialogue, they're aggressively ignorant and accusatory. What do you do with a group of people claiming they don't have a voice under those circumstances? What do you do when they're acting out violent insurrectionist fantasies under those circumstances?
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  And? Do you know how long I've sat and listened to minority groups complain about being backed into a corner and having no voice? To my knowledge, none have ever gathered thousands of believers to attack the capitol in an attempt to thwart the implementation of the constitutional order. Given the number of groups that are backed in a corner in the US, given the number of groups that have no voice in the US, those are tenuous excuses at best. You want change? Do it the proper way like everyone else has to. Peaceful demonstrations that bring attention so that you can educate the population about your cause. Shortcuts like appealing to arms bring quick results but are doomed to failure long term.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yoyohello13 6y ago
At this point it's very difficult to assure them they have a voice. Hell, I didn't even vote for Trump but I don't think I have a voice. As an average citizen, it's our lot in life to be ruled over by the rich an powerful. It's always been that way, and the more I see of our "democracy" the more I believe it will stay that way.
- imnotlost 6y ago
  You can vote in local elections, you can vote for a representative for congress, you can vote for a representative for senate, you can vote for local propositions. What is your expectation? What do you mean by "voice"?
starik36 6y ago
This is a good point. And with the tech giants banning accounts, tightening screws, de-platforming and demonetizing whomever they please, I don't see how those can possibly feel like they do have a voice. I think it's poignant that the Russian opposition to Putin is up in arms about Twitter banning Trump. Because de-platforming (web, TV and radio) is how the loss of freedom of speech started in Russia after Yeltsin resigned and Putin started getting rid of voices critical of him.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  The tech companies banning, deplatforming, etc. is exactly their voice turned back on them. They don't think private companies should have to bake a cake for a gay couple, so, why should they believe private companies should host the President, after he's been given extra special treatment to be allowed to remain, and still managed to fuck that up? Maybe people need to learn to stop voting against their interests. Maybe they need to learn "rules for thee, but not for me" isn't how it ought to work.
  - starik36 6y ago
    The baking company isn't the only game in town. But things like YouTube are factual monopolies. Therefore they should be treated like a utility. Now, if every bakery in town refused to do a gay cake - that would be a problem.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      I found this with a 10 second search on YouTube's parent company's search engine: https://kinsta.com/blog/video-hosting/ https://kinsta.com/blog/video-hosting/ Can't conservatives go make their own video hosting platform? We’ve already seen how willing they are to take their ball to their own, private little country club when things get too hot for them. Crying “monopoly” doesn’t ring true here. What’s the “free market” argument that says a private business should be forced to host hate speech, for free? What’s even the legal argument that YouTube is a monopoly, when DoJ has taken exactly zero action towards breaking it up? Edit: light rephrasing
SllX 6y ago
I don’t tolerate this crap from the left, why should I tolerate it from the right? We’ve got elections up the wazoo at every level of government including positions we just plain shouldn’t be electing at all; and most States have some form of ballot initiative. Both major parties and most of the minor ones are more or less a free for all as to who can join and vote for representatives and policies there. In other words, everyone has a voice. Some are louder, some are quieter, but feeling like you’re not being heard? That’s the sort of namby-pamby crap you can expect from a college campus full of kids that haven’t figured out their life yet. If college kids stormed the Capitol, you think we should excuse their actions and shouldn’t charge them with insurrection because they’ve mistaken the Capitol for Boston Harbor and 2021 for 1773? Then why should we tolerate it from anyone else simply because they backed the losing candidate? If you watched the process from October 2020 through January 5th 2021, you saw a fairly thorough stress test of our system of elections from voting, vote collections, ballot tracking, ballot verification, suits in courts of law, the counting process, the canvassing process, the re-canvassing and re-counting process in some cases, the certification of votes, the appointment of electors through Safe Harbor Day, the actual meeting of the electors to cast their votes and finally the final counting of the electors votes by Congress. Whatever you think of our system, it is thorough, and even Trump appointed judges that gave his campaign their day in court weren’t buying this moat and bailey bullshit the President’s lawyers walked in with. Even during the process of the counting in Congress, objections were raised, and summarily shot down, a process entirely completed by elected representatives. Now we will complete the transition of power. It may not be as peaceful as before, but the President’s powers have an expiration date. If Biden can’t be sworn in till midnight a week after normal for some unforeseen reason, Trump’s Presidency still expires at a fixed time and a fixed date, not when the next President is sworn in, but at Noon, EST, January 20th 2021. Insurrectionists can fight for their liberty in a Court of Law. Hopefully they find one with more sympathy than I possess for them.

majormajor 6y ago

Their perspective is the result of people lying to them for personal power and profit for years. Blame those people, not the people trying to figure out maybe-too-late how to stop their victims from burning the whole country down.

Judgmentality 6y ago
I wasn't blaming anybody for anything. I'm trying to provide some perspective to help understand the problem, instead of immediately cast blame. Honestly, your knee-jerk reaction is part of the problem.
- majormajor 6y ago
  Why do you think it's a knee-jerk reaction? This has been happening for decades and I've been worried about it for decades... and I'm worried I wasn't pessimistic enough. Why aren't you blaming anyone for anything? Do you not think what's happening is bad?
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    It's a knee-jerk reaction because my comment said nothing about blame, and your response was entirely about who to blame.
    - majormajor 6y ago
      Ah, I see, I view it as on-topic for the thread, though, since the thread-starting post from 'lettergram put blame on Twitter, etc, for the feelings of these potential protestors.
  - gwright 6y ago
    Because industrial strength blaming isn't going to get us out of this pickle. We need to be talking about ways to get everyone to cool down and take a time out. Instead all I see is efforts to blame, cancel, belittle, and disparage lots of people well beyond Trump and the people actually at the Capitol building. I see lots of careless talk that puts 70 million Americans in the category of "not worth listening to -- ever!". How well do you think that is going to work out? Lots of people seem to think that the unrest is wholly due to the election results, but the political polarization pre-dates Trump by many years.
bilbo0s 6y ago
You're all missing the point. How these people feel when they are committing violence in the streets, (and especially in the capitol), is no more relevant to our response than the weather being 'clear' or 'partly cloudy'. Maybe I need to explain it another way: Is it relevant how a BLM rioter feels when he's looting a store? Sure, the black grandma who's at the peaceful BLM protest in the morning? How she feels is important. I definitely have a tendency to listen to that type of protester. The armed BLM protesters that come only in the dark of night to loot and burn? No. How they feel is irrelevant to my response to them. Same with these self proclaimed 'patriots'. The ones at unarmed peaceful protests matter. But, quick question for you: How many do you see at unarmed peaceful protests? That pretty much tells you all you need to know. I'm only ashamed I that I had to see the Capitol fall to realize that how these violent people feel shouldn't matter.

lettergram 6y ago

^ Indeed, I’m trying to offer the opposing view. Remember, currently the left are impeaching the president with 9 days left (literally taking any future office from him). Worse, some elected officials are saying the republicans involved in challenging the election integrity (which is constitutional and unrelated), aided in causing the “insurrection”. They feel they’re being backed into a corner.

whateveracct 6y ago
His impeachment seems valid enough to me. 9 days left doesn't matter - if the President acts unlawfully in his last week, it would be Congress' duty to impeach, convict, and ban from a future term.
pixl97 6y ago
Democracy has backed them into a corner, now they are rejecting democracy.
fatbird 6y ago
But they're not being backed into a corner. They're factually wrong about almost everything that motivated the riots on Jan. 6th. They're self-insulating in a media bubble designed to cater to them. When engaged in dialogue, they're aggressively ignorant and accusatory. What do you do with a group of people claiming they don't have a voice under those circumstances? What do you do when they're acting out violent insurrectionist fantasies under those circumstances?
bilbo0s 6y ago
And? Do you know how long I've sat and listened to minority groups complain about being backed into a corner and having no voice? To my knowledge, none have ever gathered thousands of believers to attack the capitol in an attempt to thwart the implementation of the constitutional order. Given the number of groups that are backed in a corner in the US, given the number of groups that have no voice in the US, those are tenuous excuses at best. You want change? Do it the proper way like everyone else has to. Peaceful demonstrations that bring attention so that you can educate the population about your cause. Shortcuts like appealing to arms bring quick results but are doomed to failure long term.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yoyohello13 6y ago

At this point it's very difficult to assure them they have a voice. Hell, I didn't even vote for Trump but I don't think I have a voice. As an average citizen, it's our lot in life to be ruled over by the rich an powerful. It's always been that way, and the more I see of our "democracy" the more I believe it will stay that way.

imnotlost 6y ago
You can vote in local elections, you can vote for a representative for congress, you can vote for a representative for senate, you can vote for local propositions. What is your expectation? What do you mean by "voice"?

starik36 6y ago

This is a good point. And with the tech giants banning accounts, tightening screws, de-platforming and demonetizing whomever they please, I don't see how those can possibly feel like they do have a voice. I think it's poignant that the Russian opposition to Putin is up in arms about Twitter banning Trump. Because de-platforming (web, TV and radio) is how the loss of freedom of speech started in Russia after Yeltsin resigned and Putin started getting rid of voices critical of him.

pmiller2 6y ago
The tech companies banning, deplatforming, etc. is exactly their voice turned back on them. They don't think private companies should have to bake a cake for a gay couple, so, why should they believe private companies should host the President, after he's been given extra special treatment to be allowed to remain, and still managed to fuck that up? Maybe people need to learn to stop voting against their interests. Maybe they need to learn "rules for thee, but not for me" isn't how it ought to work.
- starik36 6y ago
  The baking company isn't the only game in town. But things like YouTube are factual monopolies. Therefore they should be treated like a utility. Now, if every bakery in town refused to do a gay cake - that would be a problem.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I found this with a 10 second search on YouTube's parent company's search engine: https://kinsta.com/blog/video-hosting/ https://kinsta.com/blog/video-hosting/ Can't conservatives go make their own video hosting platform? We’ve already seen how willing they are to take their ball to their own, private little country club when things get too hot for them. Crying “monopoly” doesn’t ring true here. What’s the “free market” argument that says a private business should be forced to host hate speech, for free? What’s even the legal argument that YouTube is a monopoly, when DoJ has taken exactly zero action towards breaking it up? Edit: light rephrasing

SllX 6y ago

I don’t tolerate this crap from the left, why should I tolerate it from the right? We’ve got elections up the wazoo at every level of government including positions we just plain shouldn’t be electing at all; and most States have some form of ballot initiative. Both major parties and most of the minor ones are more or less a free for all as to who can join and vote for representatives and policies there. In other words, everyone has a voice. Some are louder, some are quieter, but feeling like you’re not being heard? That’s the sort of namby-pamby crap you can expect from a college campus full of kids that haven’t figured out their life yet. If college kids stormed the Capitol, you think we should excuse their actions and shouldn’t charge them with insurrection because they’ve mistaken the Capitol for Boston Harbor and 2021 for 1773? Then why should we tolerate it from anyone else simply because they backed the losing candidate? If you watched the process from October 2020 through January 5th 2021, you saw a fairly thorough stress test of our system of elections from voting, vote collections, ballot tracking, ballot verification, suits in courts of law, the counting process, the canvassing process, the re-canvassing and re-counting process in some cases, the certification of votes, the appointment of electors through Safe Harbor Day, the actual meeting of the electors to cast their votes and finally the final counting of the electors votes by Congress. Whatever you think of our system, it is thorough, and even Trump appointed judges that gave his campaign their day in court weren’t buying this moat and bailey bullshit the President’s lawyers walked in with. Even during the process of the counting in Congress, objections were raised, and summarily shot down, a process entirely completed by elected representatives. Now we will complete the transition of power. It may not be as peaceful as before, but the President’s powers have an expiration date. If Biden can’t be sworn in till midnight a week after normal for some unforeseen reason, Trump’s Presidency still expires at a fixed time and a fixed date, not when the next President is sworn in, but at Noon, EST, January 20th 2021. Insurrectionists can fight for their liberty in a Court of Law. Hopefully they find one with more sympathy than I possess for them.