5 ms·

and here we are arguing of the slippery road of pulling down posts because it's against freedom of speech. As if the risk to democracy and its people is not hig

by Tarsul 6y ago

and here we are arguing of the slippery road of pulling down posts because it's against freedom of speech. As if the risk to democracy and its people is not higher due to letting all this happen. If the republicans do not come around in the next few years, I fear for America.

vorpalhex 6y ago
Democracy requires freedom of speech, and to abridge that freedom is to destroy Democracy. A building does not a government make. Whatever people harmed, windows broken, our government is not any worse off functionally than it was the day before. Yet this will be used to pass harmful laws, and like 9/11 it will do infinitely more damage to Democracy than whatever the original attackers did.
- malcolmgreaves 6y ago
  Your post reads as if it's downplaying the significance of Wednesday's failed coup attempt, and the incredible ramifications of it.
  - ordinaryradical 6y ago
    It is downplaying. What happened was unprecedented political violence and the only reason to make an argument like the parent is because you cannot admit it deserves a serious, judicial response.
    - cgriswald 6y ago
      > What happened was unprecedented political violence... Well, there were the little matters of the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War. And a few others of varying scope in this incomplete list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_Unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War (This isn't to disagree with you; or to downplay the seriousness or support the events of the sixth.) Edit: List formatting
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation's leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? All three branches of the government are whole (and save the executive, functioning, but the executive wasn't functioning before the coup either) and business is moving on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't respond with physical security, press charges appropriately or react - but calling it a coup attempt is something that not even the NYTimes supports: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-coup-attempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-...
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation’s leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? I see you understood the word “coup” but the “failed…attempt” surrounding that word. Attempted murder doesn’t stop being a serious offense because no one died, and attempted coup doesn’t become a minor event because only a handful of people died and the attempt to improperly seize power by force failed.
    - miguelmota 6y ago
      A successful coup or a failed coup, is still a coup. We can argue semantics but based on what happened it's clear this was a poorly executed attempt to undermine the government and seize political officials.
    - desertrider12 6y ago
      We didn't lose any branches of government, but the proceedings of the legislature were disrupted for most of a day. I'm sure if they had been working on an emergency thing and not a formality that it could be continued in a bunker but it still feels like a huge deal to me. Maybe it's mostly symbolic, idk. I agree though, it doesn't seem like a coup since they got in and then had no plan for what to do once there. It was just unfocused anger.
- ismaildonmez 6y ago
  For God’s sake, they were chanting “Hang Mike Pence”, make no mistake this could have been way worse if it wasn’t for the Secret Service and some brave police officer who mislead the mob away from Senate.
- majormajor 6y ago
  Democracy requires people to put a very high value on the preservation of democracy. It requires work, more than any abstract principles. Hiding behind those principles to excuse doing things that directly endanger democracy is shameful.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- miguelmota 6y ago
  Speech that incites imminent lawless action is not protected speech, for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
- joshgel 6y ago
  Do all Western democracies guarantee Freedom of Speech like in the US? I seem to remember reading this is actually a US-centric view that isn’t universally shared. Eg nazi slogans in present day Germany. Do we actually need to guarantee universal Freedom of Speech to have a democracy?
  - nullsense 6y ago
    Mostly what you need is sensible people that value democracy. That's all that's really required. If you have that the rest tends to work itself out, if you don't have that then nothing else matters.
  - staticman2 6y ago
    All Democracy's, including the United States, have limits on freedom of speech. Try publishing Harry Potter fanfiction in book stores in America and see what the court system does to you. Try showing female nipples on network television and see what the legal system does to you. Try sticking the Apple logo on your product without Apple's permission and see what the court system does to you. Free speech= democracy isn't a very nuanced view.
    - refurb 6y ago
      The US does value freedom of speech greater than pretty much every other country on the planet. Just because it’s not absolute doesn’t mean it’s not true.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      > Try showing female nipples on network television I think this is the US specific part :p. The rest I all agree with
  - aksss 6y ago
    England has been pretty notoriously abridging the "right to offend" for years now. And as you point out, there's Germany. > Do we actually need [FoS]? It probably depends on how much you trust the government to be "self-regulated" in prioritizing the liberty of the people over time. Democracy is not the natural state of things by any means.
- triceratops 6y ago
  > A building does not a government make. That sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship might say. "Yeah, he burned my wardrobe but I didn't like those clothes anyway". Please seek help.
aksss 6y ago
Freedom of speech != B&E, looting, vandalizing, threatening physical violence. Freedom of speech protects the expression of beliefs and ideas, and there is a legal line between that and inciting riot. Punish when the line is crossed, but protect the expression of ideas and beliefs up to that line. Risk intolerance is behind the fear of letting people close to the line, but that's where we talk about slippery slopes - your risk tolerance is not the same as others, and if you start moving the bar down it happens for everybody (even the most righteous causes) not just the people you hate today. > if {party people} do not come around in next few years, I fear for America It's interesting that I've heard that in years past but from my friends on the right talking about Democrats and violent protests. I'm not justifying the actions in the Capitol (I condemn them frequently), but listening to people aligned with either part I do find it interesting that this feels like a [downward] spiral. The question is how to break out of it and reset.
- res0nat0r 6y ago
  The issue is the storming of the capitol last week is directly related to online disinformation, propaganda and the lack of removal of violent and lying rhetoric, and finally thanks to some real world violence the online companies are starting to crack down just out of fear of culpability and likely eventual regulation. > It's interesting that I've heard that in years past but from my friends on the right talking about Democrats and violent protests. The issue with this is one is rooted in reality and one is not. The biggest danger to US citizens right now is due to right wing violence, not left wing. https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-3...
  - FFRefresh 6y ago
    > The biggest danger to US citizens right now is due to right wing violence, not left wing. False dichotomy. You are hyper-focused on the american partisan culture war, that you've lost sight of the bigger picture. I'm guessing you consume a lot of content from the news & entertainment companies, as they do tend to convey this as well. Let's take your 'right-wing extremists have killed 117 people since 2010' point that was presented in the article. Where does that 117 rank in terms of causes of death since 2010?
downandout 6y ago
If the republicans do not come around in the next few years, I fear for America. What exactly do you mean by “do not come around”. Come around to what? That suppression of free speech is a good thing? I’m an independent, and I think Trump has a serious amount of responsibility for what happened here. But the suppression of free speech offends me on every level, regardless of who the target of the suppression is. We either have free speech or we don’t.
- brown9-2 6y ago
  Republicans need to come around on topics like admitting who won the election, ceasing to lie to their voters about it, and asking themselves why such a large part of their voting base and media ecosystem is based around spreading or believing in obvious bullshit like QAnon.
- objectivetruth 6y ago
  > Come around to what? When polls show nearly half of Republicans support the Capitol Insurgents, there are LOTS of things that Republicans need to come around to. Come "back" around to the belief that the court is the final arbiter of disputes in our country, NOT whoever sends the most maniacs in a frenzied mob. Come around to the belief that yes, they did in fact lose the 2020 presidential election fairly, as stated by every state and county election official, including the GOP's. Come around to the belief that the US "peaceful transition of power" during presidential elections was in fact a good thing, not a centuries-old tradition to be thrown away in a futile attempt to install a game show host as dictator-for-life. Source: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/01/07/nearly-half-of-republicans-support-the-invasion-of-the-us-capitol https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/01/07/nearly-h...
- polemic 6y ago
  > We either have free speech or we don’t. Perhaps one of the best things Americans could do is throw away demonstrably false dichotomies like this. You have defamation laws, you have copyright & IP law, contract law etc. Freedom of expression is a right that is balanced against other types of rights and freedoms. No doubt the USA puts more weight on freedom of expression over other rights, but it's by no means the only setting that confers a functioning democracy. It's entirely valid to discuss where the balance should sit. Indeed it's the _only_ way to discuss it rationally.
MrMan 6y ago
Next few days maybe

by Tarsul 6y ago

vorpalhex 6y ago

Democracy requires freedom of speech, and to abridge that freedom is to destroy Democracy. A building does not a government make. Whatever people harmed, windows broken, our government is not any worse off functionally than it was the day before. Yet this will be used to pass harmful laws, and like 9/11 it will do infinitely more damage to Democracy than whatever the original attackers did.

malcolmgreaves 6y ago
Your post reads as if it's downplaying the significance of Wednesday's failed coup attempt, and the incredible ramifications of it.
- ordinaryradical 6y ago
  It is downplaying. What happened was unprecedented political violence and the only reason to make an argument like the parent is because you cannot admit it deserves a serious, judicial response.
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    > What happened was unprecedented political violence... Well, there were the little matters of the American Revolutionary War and the American Civil War. And a few others of varying scope in this incomplete list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rebellions_in_the_Unit... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newburgh_Conspiracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%E2%80%93Baxter_War (This isn't to disagree with you; or to downplay the seriousness or support the events of the sixth.) Edit: List formatting
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation's leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? All three branches of the government are whole (and save the executive, functioning, but the executive wasn't functioning before the coup either) and business is moving on. That doesn't mean we shouldn't respond with physical security, press charges appropriately or react - but calling it a coup attempt is something that not even the NYTimes supports: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-coup-attempt.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/world/americas/what-is-a-...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Did we lose the Senate? What about the house? Do we have an enemy force occupying our capital? Are our nation’s leaders kidnapped? Are there insurgents fighting in the streets? I see you understood the word “coup” but the “failed…attempt” surrounding that word. Attempted murder doesn’t stop being a serious offense because no one died, and attempted coup doesn’t become a minor event because only a handful of people died and the attempt to improperly seize power by force failed.
  - miguelmota 6y ago
    A successful coup or a failed coup, is still a coup. We can argue semantics but based on what happened it's clear this was a poorly executed attempt to undermine the government and seize political officials.
  - desertrider12 6y ago
    We didn't lose any branches of government, but the proceedings of the legislature were disrupted for most of a day. I'm sure if they had been working on an emergency thing and not a formality that it could be continued in a bunker but it still feels like a huge deal to me. Maybe it's mostly symbolic, idk. I agree though, it doesn't seem like a coup since they got in and then had no plan for what to do once there. It was just unfocused anger.
ismaildonmez 6y ago
For God’s sake, they were chanting “Hang Mike Pence”, make no mistake this could have been way worse if it wasn’t for the Secret Service and some brave police officer who mislead the mob away from Senate.
majormajor 6y ago
Democracy requires people to put a very high value on the preservation of democracy. It requires work, more than any abstract principles. Hiding behind those principles to excuse doing things that directly endanger democracy is shameful.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
miguelmota 6y ago
Speech that incites imminent lawless action is not protected speech, for good reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
joshgel 6y ago
Do all Western democracies guarantee Freedom of Speech like in the US? I seem to remember reading this is actually a US-centric view that isn’t universally shared. Eg nazi slogans in present day Germany. Do we actually need to guarantee universal Freedom of Speech to have a democracy?
- nullsense 6y ago
  Mostly what you need is sensible people that value democracy. That's all that's really required. If you have that the rest tends to work itself out, if you don't have that then nothing else matters.
- staticman2 6y ago
  All Democracy's, including the United States, have limits on freedom of speech. Try publishing Harry Potter fanfiction in book stores in America and see what the court system does to you. Try showing female nipples on network television and see what the legal system does to you. Try sticking the Apple logo on your product without Apple's permission and see what the court system does to you. Free speech= democracy isn't a very nuanced view.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The US does value freedom of speech greater than pretty much every other country on the planet. Just because it’s not absolute doesn’t mean it’s not true.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    > Try showing female nipples on network television I think this is the US specific part :p. The rest I all agree with
- aksss 6y ago
  England has been pretty notoriously abridging the "right to offend" for years now. And as you point out, there's Germany. > Do we actually need [FoS]? It probably depends on how much you trust the government to be "self-regulated" in prioritizing the liberty of the people over time. Democracy is not the natural state of things by any means.
triceratops 6y ago
> A building does not a government make. That sounds like something someone in an abusive relationship might say. "Yeah, he burned my wardrobe but I didn't like those clothes anyway". Please seek help.

aksss 6y ago

Freedom of speech != B&E, looting, vandalizing, threatening physical violence. Freedom of speech protects the expression of beliefs and ideas, and there is a legal line between that and inciting riot. Punish when the line is crossed, but protect the expression of ideas and beliefs up to that line. Risk intolerance is behind the fear of letting people close to the line, but that's where we talk about slippery slopes - your risk tolerance is not the same as others, and if you start moving the bar down it happens for everybody (even the most righteous causes) not just the people you hate today. > if {party people} do not come around in next few years, I fear for America It's interesting that I've heard that in years past but from my friends on the right talking about Democrats and violent protests. I'm not justifying the actions in the Capitol (I condemn them frequently), but listening to people aligned with either part I do find it interesting that this feels like a [downward] spiral. The question is how to break out of it and reset.

res0nat0r 6y ago
The issue is the storming of the capitol last week is directly related to online disinformation, propaganda and the lack of removal of violent and lying rhetoric, and finally thanks to some real world violence the online companies are starting to crack down just out of fear of culpability and likely eventual regulation. > It's interesting that I've heard that in years past but from my friends on the right talking about Democrats and violent protests. The issue with this is one is rooted in reality and one is not. The biggest danger to US citizens right now is due to right wing violence, not left wing. https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-329-since-1994-antifa-killed-none-2020-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/right-wing-extremists-kill-3...
- FFRefresh 6y ago
  > The biggest danger to US citizens right now is due to right wing violence, not left wing. False dichotomy. You are hyper-focused on the american partisan culture war, that you've lost sight of the bigger picture. I'm guessing you consume a lot of content from the news & entertainment companies, as they do tend to convey this as well. Let's take your 'right-wing extremists have killed 117 people since 2010' point that was presented in the article. Where does that 117 rank in terms of causes of death since 2010?

downandout 6y ago

If the republicans do not come around in the next few years, I fear for America. What exactly do you mean by “do not come around”. Come around to what? That suppression of free speech is a good thing? I’m an independent, and I think Trump has a serious amount of responsibility for what happened here. But the suppression of free speech offends me on every level, regardless of who the target of the suppression is. We either have free speech or we don’t.

brown9-2 6y ago
Republicans need to come around on topics like admitting who won the election, ceasing to lie to their voters about it, and asking themselves why such a large part of their voting base and media ecosystem is based around spreading or believing in obvious bullshit like QAnon.
objectivetruth 6y ago
> Come around to what? When polls show nearly half of Republicans support the Capitol Insurgents, there are LOTS of things that Republicans need to come around to. Come "back" around to the belief that the court is the final arbiter of disputes in our country, NOT whoever sends the most maniacs in a frenzied mob. Come around to the belief that yes, they did in fact lose the 2020 presidential election fairly, as stated by every state and county election official, including the GOP's. Come around to the belief that the US "peaceful transition of power" during presidential elections was in fact a good thing, not a centuries-old tradition to be thrown away in a futile attempt to install a game show host as dictator-for-life. Source: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/01/07/nearly-half-of-republicans-support-the-invasion-of-the-us-capitol https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/01/07/nearly-h...
polemic 6y ago
> We either have free speech or we don’t. Perhaps one of the best things Americans could do is throw away demonstrably false dichotomies like this. You have defamation laws, you have copyright & IP law, contract law etc. Freedom of expression is a right that is balanced against other types of rights and freedoms. No doubt the USA puts more weight on freedom of expression over other rights, but it's by no means the only setting that confers a functioning democracy. It's entirely valid to discuss where the balance should sit. Indeed it's the _only_ way to discuss it rationally.

MrMan 6y ago

Next few days maybe