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> 1) Users don’t want to lose their entire message history when they lose/change their phones so apps of this kind never become massively popular. I think this

by meibo 6y ago

> 1) Users don’t want to lose their entire message history when they lose/change their phones so apps of this kind never become massively popular. I think this is a key point to consider for Signal and the other "good" messengers - there's ways to do secure backups, it just needs to be implemented so well that you won't miss the convenience of Google Drive backups. I tend to fall back on anecdotes a lot, but the first thing my relatives ask me when setting up a new phone is "will I have my texts" - people want to be able to look through the past 10 years of conversation and especially media with someone and WhatsApp makes this as easy as one click during setup.

pampa 6y ago
> and WhatsApp makes this as easy as one click during setup. unless you switch platforms. then you lose it all
- tandav 6y ago
  Yes, this happened to me after iOS -> Android switch all messages was wiped, you cant load icloud backup on android
  - tw04 6y ago
    >you cant load icloud backup on android for free If you're willing to pay for an app, you can definitely do that. https://www.syncios.com/icloud/how-to-recover-data-from-itunes-icloud-backup-to-android-phone.html https://www.syncios.com/icloud/how-to-recover-data-from-itun... *I'm not advocating for this specific app, I've never used it and couldn't comment on how well it works, just an example*
    - codetrotter 6y ago
      The only mention of WhatsApp on that page is a link to https://www.syncios.com/whatsapp-transfer/ https://www.syncios.com/whatsapp-transfer/ Not sure if the WhatsApp transfer is a feature of their main product or if it’s sold separately. Either way I’d use the buy button on the page that is about WhatsApp to be sure, if I was looking to transfer WhatsApp data between iOS and Android.
  - dochtman 6y ago
    I've just spent like 10 hours this week trying to figure out how to get my Android history into iOS. I finally did succeed with one the paid apps, but it's crazy to me that Whatsapp hasn't fixed this (and neither has Signal, by the way).
    - pampa 6y ago
      Paid app is the new perl script! I wonder why there are paid apps an NO, ZERO information on how to do it with a text editor, some copyaste and javac/xcode. Like DeCSS, from a more civilized age
dhsysusbsjsi 6y ago
Amazingly this is why I’m attracted to Signal and have set all chats to 1 week auto delete. To me text chats should be ephemeral. If I want something to stick around for years, send to email.
- behnamoh 6y ago
  Even email is not permanent. There was a discussion a few months ago on HN where people were complaining that very old attachments just don't load up in Gmail, because they are not backed up on the servers.
  - troyvit 6y ago
    There's a difference between email not being permanent and gmail not being permanent.
    - behnamoh 6y ago
      Logically speaking, my sentence is correct.
- noxer 6y ago
  The blog post is old. Telegram now has auto delete for chats for e2e chats and even manual delete including deleting your partners messages if you want to (on both sides - obviously not in groups). So yes the quick chat that you dont want to be archived anywhere can be deleted quickly and easily. Ofc this does not prevent the other side from storing it in advance but its rather unlikely and It would no longer be possible to proof that yous send these messages. It would just be a text file that could be crafted. So depending on what you sent you have plausible deniability even if a backup exists.
  - fuzxi 6y ago
    >manual delete including deleting your partners messages if you want to (on both sides - obviously not in groups You can delete other people's messages for everyone in the chat if you're an admin of the group.
yatralalala 6y ago
Wire has backups and is e2e even for groups and all.
kitkat_new 6y ago
Matrix already has solved it. Message history is stored on the servers, like in Telegram. With the difference, that the end user has a secret. This secret can be written down/saved and/or be implicitly passed through his/her own devices by e.g. scanning a QR code. This works simultaneously across arbitrary platforms with arbitrary many devices including web. Telegram seems to want to create the illusion that there is nothing which can provide the experience of Telegram with encryption. It is not true.
- meibo 6y ago
  Matrix seems to be the best implementation of this I've seen up to now, I agree. Even just giving you the option to upload to Drive or iCloud, while allowing you to keep the key yourself on a note or another device, would be a step in the right direction for an app like WhatsApp that has no "messages" on the server at all after delivery(or so it always used to work, not sure if it's still the case - my GDPR export from yesterday literally only had my profile picture and contacts).
- mmis1000 6y ago
  If you requires them to write down or print, then there will be people just not do it and still lost their data all together. If you just infer it from user password. Someone is definitely going to use weak password and get cracked in seconds. If you requires a strict password rule to enforce strong password, someone is going to forget it and lock them out of their account. Because they only use this password here and there is literally no reason you use it the second time(most people only login from 1 device. Unless it is broken, you are not going to login the second time). Requires a physical device is also a no go. Because devices can break. Unless you have another backup, you are screwed. I am not sure there is a method that is secure(that don't lost message by accident) to most of the users. Lost messages and contacts is way more risky then your message may be seen by CIA to most users, I believe.
SergeAx 6y ago
Last time I checked WhatsApp deleted media older than several months. Moreover, there was no way to re-download that media from the cloud, I had to ask counterpart to re-send me the file (it was a work document).

by meibo 6y ago

pampa 6y ago

> and WhatsApp makes this as easy as one click during setup. unless you switch platforms. then you lose it all

tandav 6y ago
Yes, this happened to me after iOS -> Android switch all messages was wiped, you cant load icloud backup on android
- tw04 6y ago
  >you cant load icloud backup on android for free If you're willing to pay for an app, you can definitely do that. https://www.syncios.com/icloud/how-to-recover-data-from-itunes-icloud-backup-to-android-phone.html https://www.syncios.com/icloud/how-to-recover-data-from-itun... *I'm not advocating for this specific app, I've never used it and couldn't comment on how well it works, just an example*
  - codetrotter 6y ago
    The only mention of WhatsApp on that page is a link to https://www.syncios.com/whatsapp-transfer/ https://www.syncios.com/whatsapp-transfer/ Not sure if the WhatsApp transfer is a feature of their main product or if it’s sold separately. Either way I’d use the buy button on the page that is about WhatsApp to be sure, if I was looking to transfer WhatsApp data between iOS and Android.
- dochtman 6y ago
  I've just spent like 10 hours this week trying to figure out how to get my Android history into iOS. I finally did succeed with one the paid apps, but it's crazy to me that Whatsapp hasn't fixed this (and neither has Signal, by the way).
  - pampa 6y ago
    Paid app is the new perl script! I wonder why there are paid apps an NO, ZERO information on how to do it with a text editor, some copyaste and javac/xcode. Like DeCSS, from a more civilized age

dhsysusbsjsi 6y ago

Amazingly this is why I’m attracted to Signal and have set all chats to 1 week auto delete. To me text chats should be ephemeral. If I want something to stick around for years, send to email.

behnamoh 6y ago
Even email is not permanent. There was a discussion a few months ago on HN where people were complaining that very old attachments just don't load up in Gmail, because they are not backed up on the servers.
- troyvit 6y ago
  There's a difference between email not being permanent and gmail not being permanent.
  - behnamoh 6y ago
    Logically speaking, my sentence is correct.
noxer 6y ago
The blog post is old. Telegram now has auto delete for chats for e2e chats and even manual delete including deleting your partners messages if you want to (on both sides - obviously not in groups). So yes the quick chat that you dont want to be archived anywhere can be deleted quickly and easily. Ofc this does not prevent the other side from storing it in advance but its rather unlikely and It would no longer be possible to proof that yous send these messages. It would just be a text file that could be crafted. So depending on what you sent you have plausible deniability even if a backup exists.
- fuzxi 6y ago
  >manual delete including deleting your partners messages if you want to (on both sides - obviously not in groups You can delete other people's messages for everyone in the chat if you're an admin of the group.

yatralalala 6y ago

Wire has backups and is e2e even for groups and all.

kitkat_new 6y ago

Matrix already has solved it. Message history is stored on the servers, like in Telegram. With the difference, that the end user has a secret. This secret can be written down/saved and/or be implicitly passed through his/her own devices by e.g. scanning a QR code. This works simultaneously across arbitrary platforms with arbitrary many devices including web. Telegram seems to want to create the illusion that there is nothing which can provide the experience of Telegram with encryption. It is not true.

meibo 6y ago
Matrix seems to be the best implementation of this I've seen up to now, I agree. Even just giving you the option to upload to Drive or iCloud, while allowing you to keep the key yourself on a note or another device, would be a step in the right direction for an app like WhatsApp that has no "messages" on the server at all after delivery(or so it always used to work, not sure if it's still the case - my GDPR export from yesterday literally only had my profile picture and contacts).
mmis1000 6y ago
If you requires them to write down or print, then there will be people just not do it and still lost their data all together. If you just infer it from user password. Someone is definitely going to use weak password and get cracked in seconds. If you requires a strict password rule to enforce strong password, someone is going to forget it and lock them out of their account. Because they only use this password here and there is literally no reason you use it the second time(most people only login from 1 device. Unless it is broken, you are not going to login the second time). Requires a physical device is also a no go. Because devices can break. Unless you have another backup, you are screwed. I am not sure there is a method that is secure(that don't lost message by accident) to most of the users. Lost messages and contacts is way more risky then your message may be seen by CIA to most users, I believe.

SergeAx 6y ago

Last time I checked WhatsApp deleted media older than several months. Moreover, there was no way to re-download that media from the cloud, I had to ask counterpart to re-send me the file (it was a work document).