15 ms·

Getting Started with Signal

276 points by JustinGarrison 6y ago

jypepin 6y ago
I have a few family-related whatsapp groups and I've been thinking about asking/moving those groups to signal, but I really can't imagine my parents/sister/friends to understand, nor care about the facebook data issue. After all, they're all on Facebook and all use it. I don't think I'll ever get to request it, because I'm pretty sure it's going to fail, especially with my parents and other from this age group - having them download another app, signup, etc. will be too complicated. My family group is all iphone users, so I thought about moving this to iMessage, which feels more possible, but again, I'm not even sure my parents understand the difference between whatsapp and iMessage, as they send me messages on both platform without much logic. Like everything else "bad" that happens to Facebook, this event won't change much and impact on whatsapp will, unfortunately, not change anything. Remember when corporates stopped advertising on Facebook? They're all back.
- tapoxi 6y ago
  > I don't think I'll ever get to request it, because I'm pretty sure it's going to fail, especially with my parents and other from this age group - having them download another app, signup, etc. will be too complicated. I moved my whole family to Signal, and its surprisingly easy. It asks for their phone number, name (it's autocompleted) and a pin. You can create a link to your family's group chat so then can join without needing someone to invite them.
  - jsmcgd 6y ago
    I'm in the process of moving family and friends. For my friends who I believe are more than capable of moving, I just said them that I'm leaving WhatsApp, you can still reach me on Signal. Then I block them on WhatsApp, so I don't relapse. Almost all of them have moved across so far. I installed Signal for my mom and then blocked my myself on WhatsApp on her phone, so she's forced to use Signal to contact me. If someone can use WhatsApp they can definitely use Signal. It's more secure and it's cleaner.
    - thinkloop 6y ago
      > Then I block them on WhatsApp, so I don't relapse That's the key move, it takes guts
  - Sodman 6y ago
    Most people's whole family is already using WhatsApp to communicate amongst themselves, especially outside the US. It's not that signal is any harder to use, it's that you now need everyone to unlearn their "Use WhatsApp" behavior, and the only justifications you can give them is "Facebook/Privacy!". This might work with younger groups who really care about that stuff, but as you move up the age groups you'll start to find people who think "Well I already use Facebook daily, how is this different? Why should I care?", and eventually hit the age group that doesn't know the difference between SMS and WhatsApp, they're all just "messages". Obviously I'm over-generalizing a bit here, but even if I got my parents using Signal, they'd still use WhatsApp to talk to their friends. My parents' parents are even more locked in. Short of charging a monthly fee, I don't think there's anything WhatsApp could do that will get a majority of folks to actually uninstall it.
- gegtik 6y ago
  my 67 year old mother in law switched from whatsapp to signal and told me about it unbidden. its happening.
- baxtr 6y ago
  Some ideas: 1. Install the app when you visit, go to the process together (difficult these days, I know...) 2. If you have many iPhone users in your family, answer on iMessage whenever they send you a WhatsApp. This way you can pull them over slowly 3. If Android users send you a WhatsApp, check if they have Signal installed and answer there instead. It is "Salami tactics", but works for me.
- annadane 6y ago
  I don't like "nothing will happen" as a talking point. "Nothing will happen" because... they cornered the market. They're the only game in town. It's the only way for many people to contact their friends. It's not their fault Facebook is a scummy organization run by a sociopath, they don't really have any options. I don't like this implication that the public is to blame
- bondarchuk 6y ago
  They all moved to whatsapp one time too, I don't think Signal is any more difficult right?
  - multjoy 6y ago
    For the vast majority of people, WhatsApp works just fine; you’re trying to get them off something they’re comfortable with rather than getting them to use something better than SMS.
alperakgun 6y ago
I can't get started with Signal for the last few days. It rejects the correct SMS confirmation code it's sending/receiving itself :)
- prophesi 6y ago
  I doubt you're actually having this problem, but if you are, you can add an issue to the corresponding Android/iOS repo.
  - skyspor 6y ago
    They had announced capacity issues with SMS service due to onboarding a massive number of new users.
    - prophesi 6y ago
      That resulted in delays, not incorrect codes.
      - jandrese 6y ago
        Maybe the code was taking so long to get through that it was expiring? At any rate, I know a couple of people who have recently signed up so it's not affecting everybody.
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  You could try removing the SMS permission from the app, and just type the code into Signal manually once you get the SMS with the code.
Daniel_sk 6y ago
I moved 10 of my non-IT (male, age ~30-35) friends from FB Messenger group chat to Signal. None of them had any problems setting it up, none had any questions during the setup. I just invited them to the group after they created accounts (you can also use an invitation link) and the chat continued on Signal. No one has looked back at FB Messenger and we are not missing any functionality. I am slowly spreading in my circles and so far with only positive feedback.
- pjkundert 6y ago
  Yup, my wife just move a large group of non-technicals from Facebook Messenger to Signal. No problems, thus far!
- bouncing 6y ago
  The problem is, you have to "be that guy."
  - Daniel_sk 6y ago
    I have to. But in this case it's not a social network, I don't care if the rest of world uses WhatsApp. I don't need a "network effect". I am fine when the people around me use it. So I achieved my personal goal and while I am happy if more people will join, it will not impact my own usage.
    - afterburner 6y ago
      He means you have to be "that guy" that people actually listen to and would switch apps for.
      - dpoochieni 6y ago
        Well, if no one listens to you why even make the effort to keep in touch. That's a different problem and solved by Twitter and similar
        6y ago
pkulak 6y ago
> This is distinctly different than how iMessage and Telegram work because in both of those apps they store your private key. Does anyone have a moment to explain this one to me? Seems to me you'd of course have to store your own key on the device. And if Apple is storing it themselves... that's news to me and pretty concerning.
- rwcarlsen 6y ago
  Here's an article that goes over some of the issues: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/imessage-weak-encryption-matthew-green,32466.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/imessage-weak-encryption-m...
- resonanttoe 6y ago
  I think the author is over-simplifying here a deal. Page 99 here. https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/apple-platform-security-guide.pdf https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app... Which describes that the private keys are generated and held on device. Now I think this model *may change when you enable icloud messaging, in which case an encrypted messaging key may be stored in your icloud account. So you may opt to have apple store it, but in an encrypted manner that they can't undo. This part is a bit speculative on my part though, so grain of salt.
- JustinGarrison 6y ago
  iMessage does store a secure key locally on your device which never leaves. The main difference with iMessage is Apple is able to add more signing keys to decrypt the data if they wanted. This is what happens when you add a new device. In a no-trust model once you sign in on a new device you wouldn't see all of your old messages. Because all of your old messages are decrypted and sent to the new device this is evidence that a new signing key was added to the communication chain. Apple could also do this to decrypt your messages to give to a government agency or for whatever purposes they want without notifying you. https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/27/apple-explains-exactly-how-secure-imessage-really-is/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/27/apple-explains-exactly-how...
dlojudice 6y ago
I tried to migrate a busy group of friends from Whatsapp to Signal but a few lock-ins emerged: - stickers (big one!) - if it was possible to import whatsapp stickers library it would be a big win - on whatsapp it's easier to share news and memes from other groups - network effect - UX/UI - whatsapp seems to have a much tailored UI for beginners
- suyash 6y ago
  Is there a GitHub issue or someone to make this as a feature request for Signal since it's an open source project? +1 to easy migration features that can allow folks and groups to move from WhatsApp to Signal.
  - Daniel_sk 6y ago
    https://community.signalusers.org/c/feature-requests https://community.signalusers.org/c/feature-requests
- gen3 6y ago
  I found a bunch of sticker packs here that were easy to install. There must be a way to import telegram sticker packs, because I see them referenced. https://signalstickers.com https://signalstickers.com
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Klonoar 6y ago
  At least for Telegram, there are sub-groups out there that port stickers from other services (e.g, LINE). Hard to imagine that won't crop up for Signal eventually, if not already.
- another_kel 6y ago
  FYI: Telegram checks all these boxes.
  - 6y ago
renewiltord 6y ago
My mum and dad (in their 60s) asked us to move from WhatsApp. They did all the work (setting up the groups and everything). I just chatted.
suyash 6y ago
Here is how I rate them now: 1. Worst Offender : Facebook Messenger --> spyware for tracking all your activities even in background 2. WhatsApp : Lost trust in it since Facebook bought it, more so with the new terms and conditions. Data is not safe anymore. 3. Telegram : Trust it's privacy but it's proposed business model is also advertisement based so avoiding it. 4. Signal : Best option, there are some sacrifices to be made with lack of contacts and some features but slowly and surely we can turn the tide. Also it's open source funded by a Non-Profit so that gets it bonus points. Reference: https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-...
- Angostura 6y ago
  I rate them differently- I can use Facebook and supply minimal real personal information. WhatsApp by contrast demands full access to all my contacts whether they use WhatsApp or not
  - Daniel_sk 6y ago
    You don't need to give permissions to contacts, you can add a contact manually in WhatsApp.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      That has not been true in forever on either iOS or Android, if it ever was. It is possible to reply to numbers bot listed in your contacts; and apparently it is possible to initiate chats with numbers by using a web api which triggers a platform specific app action. But you’d be left with phone numbers as identifiers, and at most the user’s self description which is sometimes they name and sometimes just something like “xxx”
- querez 6y ago
  you're missing Threema
  - 6y ago
notjes 6y ago
What is the business model of Signal? How are they paying their bills?
- jliptzin 6y ago
  Donations
- anaclet0 6y ago
  Donations
- noisenotsignal 6y ago
  They are a non-profit, so they're funded by grants and donations.
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
After being in the business world for 30 years, one truism is that business relationships can only be sustained for the long term if the interests of the parties are aligned. All parties need to contribute and all parties need to benefit, and the contributions and benefits need to be commensurate all around. Social media and their users are struggling because their (our) interests have not been aligned all along. Initially, the services grew by providing great value. They developed equity through size and usage. Interests were not aligned for the long term because they lost money quarter after quarter. Then came the day they needed to convert the equity into revenue. At that point, the pendulum swung back the other way. The users had given up privacy and publicized their lives to the world and developed habitual (addictive?) use. The user experience deteriorated, '3rd parties' paid for access and insinuated their banners into our feeds. We've become invested in these platforms, in some cases literally by developing primary income from YouTube, Locals, OnlyFans, ... Clearly, we still don't have aligned business interests. How can 'Big Tech' and 5 billion Internet users align our interests for the long term?
- bdamm 6y ago
  It seems clear that interests can be very aligned where users are paying for their product. It is only when services are "free" where alignment is an issue.
  - crummy 6y ago
    Free like Signal?
    - hcurtiss 6y ago
      That's a fair comment, but a non-profit that relies on donations (as opposed to selling services to somebody other than me) strikes me as very different than Facebook et al.
      - krrrh 6y ago
        It’s a viable model though. WhatsApp had only ~50 employees and already 500m users when it was purchased for ~$20B. They were already profitable on the $1/year after the first year subscription model. Signal is approaching similar metrics (except it’s supported by a $50m endowment from Brian Acton instead of donations). It’s easy to say that the mechanics of chat are pretty simple and a global chat service can be maintained by a roomful of engineers, but is the original algorithm-free, chronological Twitter that much more complex? It’s hard to believe there aren’t any other billionaires out there who would be willing to create an endowment securing the perpetual existence of a free social network. Charging $1 a year like WhatsApp used to wouldn’t be such a bad idea once it got bootstrapped either, since it would make it much harder to run bot armies.
dk2377 6y ago
I give it a couple of weeks before screen shot of "violent" groups on Signal go viral, and the ban hammer will come unless they build a backdoor or remove the end-to-end encryption feature entirely.
- jkepler 6y ago
  M'y guess is Moxie would shut the company down before introducing a backdoor. Also, if the gov tries to ban it, its just open-soirce software, right? Haven't courts (in the US at least) ruled that code is speech, and therefore protected from government restrictions by the 1st Amendment?
  - Evidlo 6y ago
    If you're referring to Facebook and Twitter banning Trump-related things, I think that was voluntary for them to avoid PR troubles.
  - dk2377 6y ago
    Yes but if there's political/public support, Big Tech will sure jump in and get rid of their potential competitor.
  - grej 6y ago
    Except I doubt that's how it will work. They just have to get Apple and Google to bow to the pressure again and remove it from the app store. Restricting the first amendment is a lot easier if you can effectively do it without actually doing it officially.
- wsdrdsw 6y ago
  I'm not sure I'm buying it but the fact that Telegram is not an american company is a big plus over Signal
exabrial 6y ago
One thing I wish signal had is key transparency. How come I can't see my own key hash and my contacts keys? I know they'r trying to keep it simple, but power users should be able to do this.
- codethief 6y ago
  But you can? Open a conversation -> Menu -> Conversation settings -> View safety number. Note that the safety number is basically a combination of your and your contact's (DHKE-negotiated) keys and is thus going to be different for every conversation. The reason both keys are not shown separately is that it apparently confused users.
  - exabrial 6y ago
    Interesting, and thanks! Normally DHKE is authenticated though with public key cryptography? The way I understand is DHKE establishes a secret... with someone but in order to ensure it was your intended party, not a hostile government, usually a public key signature exchange takes place.
    - codethief 6y ago
      That's correct, it's an authenticated Diffie-Hellman key exchange. I'm not sure why they don't show the actual public keys anywhere but I suppose it doesn't make a lot of sense for the general public and it'd only be confusing. In fact, the cryptography is even more complicated: The Signal protocol uses a so-called double ratchet algorithm[0] which derives from the session/conversation keys a new ephemeral message key whenever possible (again using a DHKE). This has the added advantage of providing forward secrecy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm
- pa7ch 6y ago
  They have a feature called safety numbers in the conversation settings. Lets you pull up a QR code and number so you can verify public keys with someone in person or out of band. Then if you hit a verify button which i assume makes the warnings for someone's key changing louder or something like that.
bilal4hmed 6y ago
The problem that Signal has to solve, transfer of new messages to a new phone. Right now the iOS transfer is a whole lot better than the manual android process ( ive heard the former is not fool proof ) Being a house full of Pixel devices and sole IT person, I dont want to be responsible for lost messages when it comes time for a new phone. Also if your phone is lost or bricked ( either platform ) say goodbye to messages Moving from Android to iOS, bye messages. I can move my savvier friends and family over, but the rest will remain on whatsapp where "its easier" compromise works.
- beagle3 6y ago
  You can’t move WhatsApp message history between iOS and WhatsApp.
  - bilal4hmed 6y ago
    fair enough, still whatsapp android to android OR ios to ios is easier than Signal
- FreakyT 6y ago
  Exactly this. A lot of other messaging apps have this problem (read the App Store reviews of LINE for a sampler of people upset about it), and I find it baffling. Have these devs never lost a phone (or had one break unexpectedly?) It seems like it should be trivial to back up message history to the cloud.
  - sliken 6y ago
    Well trick is, once your phone is lost, will you remember a nice secure key? How do you protect from various evil entities from stealing your cloud backups?
    - FreakyT 6y ago
      The cloud backups themselves could be encrypted with a key that I control, couldn’t they?
temporaryacc1 6y ago
All things equal, it's good in itself to diversify geographically your portfolio of apps. Signal is in Silicon Valley, Telegram is in Dubai, so I go for Telegram.
vinay427 6y ago
I love that Signal generally seems receptive to features that users ask for. It's far from perfect, as there are certain features I've seen repeatedly requested that are still yet to be implemented, but over the years that I've used it, Signal has come much closer to a full-featured WhatsApp alternative while taking the harder path of maintaining privacy for these additions. My personal wishlist: - Making the app available on F-Droid, either on the official repos or just hosting a third-party one - Bringing the Android backup solution (encrypted blob) to iOS - Bringing the iOS backup solution (direct device transfer over Wi-Fi) to Android - Signup with usernames/emails as an option instead of only verified phone numbers - A more reliable desktop client, because most of my contacts on Signal (myself included) have experienced syncing issues, message decryption issues, notification issues, etc. I do like that the desktop client is temporarily standalone in that the phone running the app does not need to be available, although I have had to re-connect the two every once in a while so I don't find it reassuring to depend on the desktop client alone.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  There is bad blood between F-Droid and the Signal devs. I don’t expect the app to ever appear on F-Droid. Signal’s developers are on record as preferring the Google Play store as the official distribution method, and even downloading the APK directly from the Signal website is something they tolerate only grudgingly. Plus, some are predicting that forthcoming changes to Android – Google possibly mainstreaming its “advanced protection” model so that phone owners cannot install the F-Droid APK except through enabling ADB and pushing it to the phone from a computer over the command line – will further marginalize F-Droid.
  - sliken 6y ago
    Not sure about today, but didn't f-droid sign all apps with an f-droid key, meaning you have to trust f-droid instead of Whisper systems? From a security point of view it seems quite reasonable to object to f-droid handling all signatures.
    - codethief 6y ago
davb 6y ago
I'd probably switch to (and get friends to switch to) Signal if it supported Android Tablets and had a web app (like web.whatsapp.com). Those items might seem minor but having to always have my phone next to me, even when I'm browsing on my tablet, is inconvenient. Same goes for not being able to login easily to a semi-trusted device via the web (e.g. my work laptop - I don't want to install the desktop client, but I trust it enough to login to a web app, possibly in an incognito window).
- sabellito 6y ago
  Same here. The web client is extremely convenient.
  - ArnoVW 6y ago
    There's a desktop client that may be of use to you.
    - jandrese 6y ago
      The desktop client is sadly a bloated Electron app that has to be paired with your phone. Thankfully it's not completely hopeless as the pairing only has to happen once and it doesn't require your phone to be online all the time to work.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Does Signal really not run on Android tablets? While you do need to receive an SMS to set up a Signal account, you can receive that SMS on any other device, even a dumbphone.
- ggm 6y ago
  It does work on tablets, but its a side load apk, and unlike laptop/desktop it cannot be used as an "adjunct" to your phone: it becomes an independent entity or takes over the entire state.
sabellito 6y ago
I'd switch to signal over telegram if it had a web client :(
dilippkumar 6y ago
Comparing Signal features with Whatsapp I have two thoughts: 1. I noticed that Whatsapp allows me to add someone to a call (sort of like upgrading a phone call to a group call). I couldn't find a way to do that with Signal - although Signal supports group calls (that is, calling an entire group at once). It's a minor feature, but I discovered that I rely upon it quite often. 2. Last year, I attempted to switch from iOS to Android - and I discovered that there isn't a clean way to move my whatsapp messages over. On iOS, whatsapp creates a backup on iCloud, there isn't any way to recover that on Android. I aborted the attempt to switch to Android only because losing my whatsapp chat history was unacceptable. Signal currently seems to be just as bad. However, if signal can implement a reasonable way to create backups and recover them across devices and operating systems, it will seal the deal and convince me to permanently delete whatsapp from all my devices.
dave_sid 6y ago
Band Mule has chat built in to it. As well as a calendar, scheduler, set list manager and audio player.
wwright 6y ago
I think it’s interesting that not many people here bring up Discord. It’s by far the most challenging competitor for the average user, IMO. Full of features and very easy to use.
- moosebear847 6y ago
  Discord imo feels like 10 different spammy chat concert halls (rooms of 50+ people). Feature-wise though it has great group audio chat, and okay(a bit low-quality)-but-immediately-available video chat.
- Labo333 6y ago
  Discord is awesome but does not have support for end-to-end encryption AFAIK
  - wwright 6y ago
    Most people care a LOT more about the easy audio and video chat.
Evidlo 6y ago
So is everyone OK with this big migration to another centralized service that doesn't interoperate? Imagine if e-mail had been like this. You can't talk to your friends if they have a different provider, and you're not allowed to use your own client anymore.
- BoysenberryPi 6y ago
  Can you not just place a regular call over wifi through Signal? It typically requires a phone number so I don't see why it wouldn't allow that.
- evilos 6y ago
  Well signal does have the SMS fallback, it's just not secure. But neither is email.
CalChris 6y ago
It's interesting to look open Signal and see a steady influx of my contacts show up as new users.
rho4 6y ago
To me signal is like the new charging standard or version control system to rule them all: I am now forced to juggle (n + 1) versions in my life. And no web client means I am forced to type on my mobile (ugh), and I cannot mitigate the hurt with Franz.
- hans1729 6y ago
  fwiw, signal has a decent client for macos
- celsoazevedo 6y ago
  They have a desktop client. It's very basic though.
maciejw 6y ago
Some months ago Delta Chat [0] trended on HN. I think in a perfect world email based chat would solve a lot of the problems with current apps like Whatsapp or even Signal. But based on Gmail popularity I assume it would just mean that Google would get the data in most cases. [0] https://delta.chat https://delta.chat
kawfey 6y ago
I want to make my Signal (i.e. my personal cell phone number) public, but I don't want to put my cell phone number up to the internet to open up spam and MITM 2FA SMS attacks. What's the best way to do this? Burner SIM? Google Voice number? Landline service? Go find a payphone?
- thekyle 6y ago
  Google Voice would probably be the best free option.
- codethief 6y ago
  Or you wait till Signal works without phone numbers. See https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_private_messenger_team_here_we_support_an/giks8hv/ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_p...
bravura 6y ago
The "tied to your phone number" thing is weird for me, both Telegram and Signal. If you want to change your phone number, how do these platforms handle it? Do your contacts get updated or what? What happens to people with your old number? If your phone breaks, and you get a new one, how do they handle backups? (My iPhone's WhatsApp backups somehow disappeared when I got a droid.) These questions are particularly infuriating for digital nomads and people living abroad. I want an inexpensive cheap way to keep my US number I've had for 10 years. I've also heard horror stories that Google Voice (or Fi? Can't figure it out) will shut down your account if you live internationally.
- JustinGarrison 6y ago
  I have a link in the post on how to use a twilio number instead of your real phone number. Signal PINS is the first step to making non-phone number identification work. https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059792-Signal-PIN https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059792-Si...
- mynameisash 6y ago
  I have no idea about phone number changes (I've had the same phone number for 20 years), but my phone broke not terribly long ago and I had to reinstall everything. As I recall, my Signal data came back just fine. Looks like you have to enable it[0], so I assume that's what I did. > The "tied to your phone number" thing is weird for me, both Telegram and Signal. Isn't this restriction also applicable to WhatsApp? [0] https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059752-Backup-and-Restore-Messages#android_enable https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059752-Ba...
shireboy 6y ago
I'll probably burn some karma on this, but I have to ask as I'm genuinely trying to form a consistent opinion on these topics and understand better. Given that lots of people on HN are advocating in favor of Parler being deplatformed on the grounds it was used by groups to advocate and coordinate violence, and given that it's not a stretch to imagine that e2e encrypted communication apps like Signal have groups on them spreading "fake news" and "advocating violence" and cannot be moderated, how does one reconcile supporting Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp, but not Parler? What's the fundamental moral or technical difference that makes one ethical but not the other?
- throwaway829 6y ago
  Parler has right wing users. Telegram has not been labeled right wing. That's the difference.
  - anderber 6y ago
    This is not true, Parler was actively trying to be right wing and saying they're just about free speech. Their moderation says otherwise.
    - eplanit 6y ago
      Twitter claims to be neutral but their moderation reveals their active left-bias.
      - berkes 6y ago
        Without backup or evidence, that sounds like a very populist thing to say. Makes me wonder if with data, math and statistics 'right' or 'left' can be distinguished at all: since they are so ambiguous and fluid concepts.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- anderber 6y ago
b0tch7 6y ago
Question for you smart people: I don't have a FB Profile hence don't have the FB App nor FB Messenger, but I do use whatsapp extensively. Do I need to be overly concerned with whatsapp's privacy changes?
djsumdog 6y ago
I connected Singal the other day to my Matrix server via a bridge: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-rule-them-all/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-r... I currently have Hangouts/Messenger/Telegram and Signal all connected via bridges to Matrix. I pump all my Facebook/Messenger/Hangouts traffic in my browser through a VPN to the server where the bridges are hosted so Google/Messenger won't flag them for security. This took a couple of tries of logging in outside of the proxy to FB, getting the security warning and then switching back to the proxy with the same cookies so FB/Google algos learn the IP is safe. Hopefully when I move, if I keep all those same rules in place (using FoxyProxy for Firefox or Chrome-based browsers) and turning off location on my Android device permanently (will also move to a PinePhone soon), I can make it difficult for Google/FB to know my location after I move from my current city. Singal and Telegram are great because they have standard APIs that make it easy for a Matrix Bridge. For FB and Google I have to trick them, which makes them hostile to developers and tech people. We've had to do this for years with libpurple plugins as well: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/there-is-an-ios-device-attached-to-my-google-account-and-i-do-not-own-any-apple-products/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/there-is-an-ios-device-attach...
dbg31415 6y ago
I really want to like Signal, just... it's so shitty at times. Discord and Slack are great. Even Microsoft Teams. Shitty things about Signal: 1) When you set "Disappearing Messages" it's for any messages that come in after that point. I think it should be for the whole thread. Even though the UX implies it's for the entire conversation, it's really just for messages sent after the setting was changed. Moreover... let's say you change the settings a few times... you have no idea if / when individual messages will disappear. 2) When you delete a message on your phone, it's still on your desktop -- and everyone else's devices. It's really frustrating that if I send a typo, I can't delete it or fix it. Worse, it appears to delete... and being native to Discord / Slack / Teams... I expect it to delete for everyone. They did change message text from "Delete" to "Delete message for me" but even that doesn't even delete across all my devices. 3) You can't edit messages after you send them. 4) Functionality is different on a phone vs a desktop. You can't do nearly as much on the desktop version. 5) It's funky when you change phones. You can't like sync all your old messages from one device to another. It'll pull them on to a Desktop client, but it won't pull them into a new Mobile phone client. Dunno, just bad UX. 6) Signal is still based on phone numbers... I don't trust phone number based 2FA, so I don't really trust Signal to be based on phone numbers either. But it's not all bad! Some things they added which make it feel less horrible... they finally did add meta data previews for URLs. That was nice. They added ability to give tapbacks / emjoi responses, and "reply" to messages. I think all this in the last year or so. They're working on it... but like it still feels like they're aiming for shitty old cell phone text messages as what they are trying to replace... I wish they were aiming for Discord / Slack / Teams as those platforms have really done a great job with chat. By far, the platform with the most improvement was Microsoft Teams. They had this wonky Skype For Business who knows hybrid approach. And they had a lot of the same issues around messages not being synced between devices. They fixed that in the last 18 months. I've been using Signal since Snowden, but in my opinion Signal still has a long way to go before it's something I would actually want to use to chat with friends.
- hiq 6y ago
  > 1) ... you have no idea if / when individual messages will disappear. There's a small clock between the sending date and the (double) tick which indicates just that. Also, I think it's recent, but if you select a message then click the 'i' (information) at the top there's a countdown that says exactly in how much time it disappears. > 4) Functionality is different on a phone vs a desktop. You can't do nearly as much on the desktop version. Which features are you missing on the desktop version? They seem to have implemented calls recently, I'm not sure what's still missing. I mostly write text messages though, so I wouldn't know. > 5) It's funky when you change phones. You can't like sync all your old messages from one device to another. It'll pull them on to a Desktop client, but it won't pull them into a new Mobile phone client. Dunno, just bad UX. Is it better with e.g. WhatsApp? You have to transfer the backup files anyway, right? If you're on Android it should boil down to transferring the backup files, just like with WhatsApp. It does suck on iOS from what I've read. > 6) Signal is still based on phone numbers... I don't trust phone number based 2FA, so I don't really trust Signal to be based on phone numbers either. Phone numbers are a problem, but they're on a good track to get rid of them while still providing the same privacy. In the meantime, I don't think it's a security risk if you have a random pin. If you compare Signal with Discord, Slack and Microsoft Teams, Signal will never win on features. AFAIK these are not E2EE and they don't really try to reduce the metadata or even data known by the servers. Basically a feature vs. security trade-off.
patrickdavey 6y ago
I love signal, or at least the idea of it. I've been trying to get family onto it and away from WhatsApp for years, and we finally tried this week. Unfortunately, my messages to the family group are stuck spinning (24 hours now) and I'm not seeing any new messages in the group (and should be). Nightmare. If anyone knows a fix I'd love to hear it (have tried leaving the group and rejoining, restarting phone etc)
lasfallas 6y ago
I wish Signal had a setting for alternative media handling. Guessing that a lot of WhatsApp users like myself rely on the built in media backup to Google Drive. The automatically, well ordered media stored locally on the phone, with dates received in filenames, is great for people who like to have local media backups. WhatsApp image folder can also be added to services like the Google Pictures backup. All those missing features are Signal deal breakers for some people

I have a few family-related whatsapp groups and I've been thinking about asking/moving those groups to signal, but I really can't imagine my parents/sister/friends to understand, nor care about the facebook data issue. After all, they're all on Facebook and all use it. I don't think I'll ever get to request it, because I'm pretty sure it's going to fail, especially with my parents and other from this age group - having them download another app, signup, etc. will be too complicated. My family group is all iphone users, so I thought about moving this to iMessage, which feels more possible, but again, I'm not even sure my parents understand the difference between whatsapp and iMessage, as they send me messages on both platform without much logic. Like everything else "bad" that happens to Facebook, this event won't change much and impact on whatsapp will, unfortunately, not change anything. Remember when corporates stopped advertising on Facebook? They're all back.

tapoxi 6y ago
> I don't think I'll ever get to request it, because I'm pretty sure it's going to fail, especially with my parents and other from this age group - having them download another app, signup, etc. will be too complicated. I moved my whole family to Signal, and its surprisingly easy. It asks for their phone number, name (it's autocompleted) and a pin. You can create a link to your family's group chat so then can join without needing someone to invite them.
- jsmcgd 6y ago
  I'm in the process of moving family and friends. For my friends who I believe are more than capable of moving, I just said them that I'm leaving WhatsApp, you can still reach me on Signal. Then I block them on WhatsApp, so I don't relapse. Almost all of them have moved across so far. I installed Signal for my mom and then blocked my myself on WhatsApp on her phone, so she's forced to use Signal to contact me. If someone can use WhatsApp they can definitely use Signal. It's more secure and it's cleaner.
  - thinkloop 6y ago
    > Then I block them on WhatsApp, so I don't relapse That's the key move, it takes guts
- Sodman 6y ago
  Most people's whole family is already using WhatsApp to communicate amongst themselves, especially outside the US. It's not that signal is any harder to use, it's that you now need everyone to unlearn their "Use WhatsApp" behavior, and the only justifications you can give them is "Facebook/Privacy!". This might work with younger groups who really care about that stuff, but as you move up the age groups you'll start to find people who think "Well I already use Facebook daily, how is this different? Why should I care?", and eventually hit the age group that doesn't know the difference between SMS and WhatsApp, they're all just "messages". Obviously I'm over-generalizing a bit here, but even if I got my parents using Signal, they'd still use WhatsApp to talk to their friends. My parents' parents are even more locked in. Short of charging a monthly fee, I don't think there's anything WhatsApp could do that will get a majority of folks to actually uninstall it.
gegtik 6y ago
my 67 year old mother in law switched from whatsapp to signal and told me about it unbidden. its happening.
baxtr 6y ago
Some ideas: 1. Install the app when you visit, go to the process together (difficult these days, I know...) 2. If you have many iPhone users in your family, answer on iMessage whenever they send you a WhatsApp. This way you can pull them over slowly 3. If Android users send you a WhatsApp, check if they have Signal installed and answer there instead. It is "Salami tactics", but works for me.
annadane 6y ago
I don't like "nothing will happen" as a talking point. "Nothing will happen" because... they cornered the market. They're the only game in town. It's the only way for many people to contact their friends. It's not their fault Facebook is a scummy organization run by a sociopath, they don't really have any options. I don't like this implication that the public is to blame
bondarchuk 6y ago
They all moved to whatsapp one time too, I don't think Signal is any more difficult right?
- multjoy 6y ago
  For the vast majority of people, WhatsApp works just fine; you’re trying to get them off something they’re comfortable with rather than getting them to use something better than SMS.

alperakgun 6y ago

I can't get started with Signal for the last few days. It rejects the correct SMS confirmation code it's sending/receiving itself :)

prophesi 6y ago
I doubt you're actually having this problem, but if you are, you can add an issue to the corresponding Android/iOS repo.
- skyspor 6y ago
  They had announced capacity issues with SMS service due to onboarding a massive number of new users.
  - prophesi 6y ago
    That resulted in delays, not incorrect codes.
    - jandrese 6y ago
      Maybe the code was taking so long to get through that it was expiring? At any rate, I know a couple of people who have recently signed up so it's not affecting everybody.
the_pwner224 6y ago
You could try removing the SMS permission from the app, and just type the code into Signal manually once you get the SMS with the code.

Daniel_sk 6y ago

I moved 10 of my non-IT (male, age ~30-35) friends from FB Messenger group chat to Signal. None of them had any problems setting it up, none had any questions during the setup. I just invited them to the group after they created accounts (you can also use an invitation link) and the chat continued on Signal. No one has looked back at FB Messenger and we are not missing any functionality. I am slowly spreading in my circles and so far with only positive feedback.

pjkundert 6y ago
Yup, my wife just move a large group of non-technicals from Facebook Messenger to Signal. No problems, thus far!
bouncing 6y ago
The problem is, you have to "be that guy."
- Daniel_sk 6y ago
  I have to. But in this case it's not a social network, I don't care if the rest of world uses WhatsApp. I don't need a "network effect". I am fine when the people around me use it. So I achieved my personal goal and while I am happy if more people will join, it will not impact my own usage.
  - afterburner 6y ago
    He means you have to be "that guy" that people actually listen to and would switch apps for.
    - dpoochieni 6y ago
      Well, if no one listens to you why even make the effort to keep in touch. That's a different problem and solved by Twitter and similar
      - 6y ago

pkulak 6y ago

> This is distinctly different than how iMessage and Telegram work because in both of those apps they store your private key. Does anyone have a moment to explain this one to me? Seems to me you'd of course have to store your own key on the device. And if Apple is storing it themselves... that's news to me and pretty concerning.

rwcarlsen 6y ago
Here's an article that goes over some of the issues: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/imessage-weak-encryption-matthew-green,32466.html https://www.tomshardware.com/news/imessage-weak-encryption-m...
resonanttoe 6y ago
I think the author is over-simplifying here a deal. Page 99 here. https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/apple-platform-security-guide.pdf https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app... Which describes that the private keys are generated and held on device. Now I think this model *may change when you enable icloud messaging, in which case an encrypted messaging key may be stored in your icloud account. So you may opt to have apple store it, but in an encrypted manner that they can't undo. This part is a bit speculative on my part though, so grain of salt.
JustinGarrison 6y ago
iMessage does store a secure key locally on your device which never leaves. The main difference with iMessage is Apple is able to add more signing keys to decrypt the data if they wanted. This is what happens when you add a new device. In a no-trust model once you sign in on a new device you wouldn't see all of your old messages. Because all of your old messages are decrypted and sent to the new device this is evidence that a new signing key was added to the communication chain. Apple could also do this to decrypt your messages to give to a government agency or for whatever purposes they want without notifying you. https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/27/apple-explains-exactly-how-secure-imessage-really-is/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/02/27/apple-explains-exactly-how...

dlojudice 6y ago

I tried to migrate a busy group of friends from Whatsapp to Signal but a few lock-ins emerged: - stickers (big one!) - if it was possible to import whatsapp stickers library it would be a big win - on whatsapp it's easier to share news and memes from other groups - network effect - UX/UI - whatsapp seems to have a much tailored UI for beginners

suyash 6y ago
Is there a GitHub issue or someone to make this as a feature request for Signal since it's an open source project? +1 to easy migration features that can allow folks and groups to move from WhatsApp to Signal.
- Daniel_sk 6y ago
  https://community.signalusers.org/c/feature-requests https://community.signalusers.org/c/feature-requests
gen3 6y ago
I found a bunch of sticker packs here that were easy to install. There must be a way to import telegram sticker packs, because I see them referenced. https://signalstickers.com https://signalstickers.com
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Klonoar 6y ago
At least for Telegram, there are sub-groups out there that port stickers from other services (e.g, LINE). Hard to imagine that won't crop up for Signal eventually, if not already.
another_kel 6y ago
FYI: Telegram checks all these boxes.
- 6y ago

renewiltord 6y ago

My mum and dad (in their 60s) asked us to move from WhatsApp. They did all the work (setting up the groups and everything). I just chatted.

suyash 6y ago

Here is how I rate them now: 1. Worst Offender : Facebook Messenger --> spyware for tracking all your activities even in background 2. WhatsApp : Lost trust in it since Facebook bought it, more so with the new terms and conditions. Data is not safe anymore. 3. Telegram : Trust it's privacy but it's proposed business model is also advertisement based so avoiding it. 4. Signal : Best option, there are some sacrifices to be made with lack of contacts and some features but slowly and surely we can turn the tide. Also it's open source funded by a Non-Profit so that gets it bonus points. Reference: https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-...

Angostura 6y ago
I rate them differently- I can use Facebook and supply minimal real personal information. WhatsApp by contrast demands full access to all my contacts whether they use WhatsApp or not
- Daniel_sk 6y ago
  You don't need to give permissions to contacts, you can add a contact manually in WhatsApp.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    That has not been true in forever on either iOS or Android, if it ever was. It is possible to reply to numbers bot listed in your contacts; and apparently it is possible to initiate chats with numbers by using a web api which triggers a platform specific app action. But you’d be left with phone numbers as identifiers, and at most the user’s self description which is sometimes they name and sometimes just something like “xxx”
querez 6y ago
you're missing Threema
- 6y ago

notjes 6y ago

What is the business model of Signal? How are they paying their bills?

jliptzin 6y ago
Donations
anaclet0 6y ago
Donations
noisenotsignal 6y ago
They are a non-profit, so they're funded by grants and donations.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

After being in the business world for 30 years, one truism is that business relationships can only be sustained for the long term if the interests of the parties are aligned. All parties need to contribute and all parties need to benefit, and the contributions and benefits need to be commensurate all around. Social media and their users are struggling because their (our) interests have not been aligned all along. Initially, the services grew by providing great value. They developed equity through size and usage. Interests were not aligned for the long term because they lost money quarter after quarter. Then came the day they needed to convert the equity into revenue. At that point, the pendulum swung back the other way. The users had given up privacy and publicized their lives to the world and developed habitual (addictive?) use. The user experience deteriorated, '3rd parties' paid for access and insinuated their banners into our feeds. We've become invested in these platforms, in some cases literally by developing primary income from YouTube, Locals, OnlyFans, ... Clearly, we still don't have aligned business interests. How can 'Big Tech' and 5 billion Internet users align our interests for the long term?

bdamm 6y ago
It seems clear that interests can be very aligned where users are paying for their product. It is only when services are "free" where alignment is an issue.
- crummy 6y ago
  Free like Signal?
  - hcurtiss 6y ago
    That's a fair comment, but a non-profit that relies on donations (as opposed to selling services to somebody other than me) strikes me as very different than Facebook et al.
    - krrrh 6y ago
      It’s a viable model though. WhatsApp had only ~50 employees and already 500m users when it was purchased for ~$20B. They were already profitable on the $1/year after the first year subscription model. Signal is approaching similar metrics (except it’s supported by a $50m endowment from Brian Acton instead of donations). It’s easy to say that the mechanics of chat are pretty simple and a global chat service can be maintained by a roomful of engineers, but is the original algorithm-free, chronological Twitter that much more complex? It’s hard to believe there aren’t any other billionaires out there who would be willing to create an endowment securing the perpetual existence of a free social network. Charging $1 a year like WhatsApp used to wouldn’t be such a bad idea once it got bootstrapped either, since it would make it much harder to run bot armies.

dk2377 6y ago

I give it a couple of weeks before screen shot of "violent" groups on Signal go viral, and the ban hammer will come unless they build a backdoor or remove the end-to-end encryption feature entirely.

jkepler 6y ago
M'y guess is Moxie would shut the company down before introducing a backdoor. Also, if the gov tries to ban it, its just open-soirce software, right? Haven't courts (in the US at least) ruled that code is speech, and therefore protected from government restrictions by the 1st Amendment?
- Evidlo 6y ago
  If you're referring to Facebook and Twitter banning Trump-related things, I think that was voluntary for them to avoid PR troubles.
- dk2377 6y ago
  Yes but if there's political/public support, Big Tech will sure jump in and get rid of their potential competitor.
- grej 6y ago
  Except I doubt that's how it will work. They just have to get Apple and Google to bow to the pressure again and remove it from the app store. Restricting the first amendment is a lot easier if you can effectively do it without actually doing it officially.
wsdrdsw 6y ago
I'm not sure I'm buying it but the fact that Telegram is not an american company is a big plus over Signal

exabrial 6y ago

One thing I wish signal had is key transparency. How come I can't see my own key hash and my contacts keys? I know they'r trying to keep it simple, but power users should be able to do this.

codethief 6y ago
But you can? Open a conversation -> Menu -> Conversation settings -> View safety number. Note that the safety number is basically a combination of your and your contact's (DHKE-negotiated) keys and is thus going to be different for every conversation. The reason both keys are not shown separately is that it apparently confused users.
- exabrial 6y ago
  Interesting, and thanks! Normally DHKE is authenticated though with public key cryptography? The way I understand is DHKE establishes a secret... with someone but in order to ensure it was your intended party, not a hostile government, usually a public key signature exchange takes place.
  - codethief 6y ago
    That's correct, it's an authenticated Diffie-Hellman key exchange. I'm not sure why they don't show the actual public keys anywhere but I suppose it doesn't make a lot of sense for the general public and it'd only be confusing. In fact, the cryptography is even more complicated: The Signal protocol uses a so-called double ratchet algorithm[0] which derives from the session/conversation keys a new ephemeral message key whenever possible (again using a DHKE). This has the added advantage of providing forward secrecy. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Ratchet_Algorithm
pa7ch 6y ago
They have a feature called safety numbers in the conversation settings. Lets you pull up a QR code and number so you can verify public keys with someone in person or out of band. Then if you hit a verify button which i assume makes the warnings for someone's key changing louder or something like that.

bilal4hmed 6y ago

The problem that Signal has to solve, transfer of new messages to a new phone. Right now the iOS transfer is a whole lot better than the manual android process ( ive heard the former is not fool proof ) Being a house full of Pixel devices and sole IT person, I dont want to be responsible for lost messages when it comes time for a new phone. Also if your phone is lost or bricked ( either platform ) say goodbye to messages Moving from Android to iOS, bye messages. I can move my savvier friends and family over, but the rest will remain on whatsapp where "its easier" compromise works.

beagle3 6y ago
You can’t move WhatsApp message history between iOS and WhatsApp.
- bilal4hmed 6y ago
  fair enough, still whatsapp android to android OR ios to ios is easier than Signal
FreakyT 6y ago
Exactly this. A lot of other messaging apps have this problem (read the App Store reviews of LINE for a sampler of people upset about it), and I find it baffling. Have these devs never lost a phone (or had one break unexpectedly?) It seems like it should be trivial to back up message history to the cloud.
- sliken 6y ago
  Well trick is, once your phone is lost, will you remember a nice secure key? How do you protect from various evil entities from stealing your cloud backups?
  - FreakyT 6y ago
    The cloud backups themselves could be encrypted with a key that I control, couldn’t they?

temporaryacc1 6y ago

All things equal, it's good in itself to diversify geographically your portfolio of apps. Signal is in Silicon Valley, Telegram is in Dubai, so I go for Telegram.

vinay427 6y ago

I love that Signal generally seems receptive to features that users ask for. It's far from perfect, as there are certain features I've seen repeatedly requested that are still yet to be implemented, but over the years that I've used it, Signal has come much closer to a full-featured WhatsApp alternative while taking the harder path of maintaining privacy for these additions. My personal wishlist: - Making the app available on F-Droid, either on the official repos or just hosting a third-party one - Bringing the Android backup solution (encrypted blob) to iOS - Bringing the iOS backup solution (direct device transfer over Wi-Fi) to Android - Signup with usernames/emails as an option instead of only verified phone numbers - A more reliable desktop client, because most of my contacts on Signal (myself included) have experienced syncing issues, message decryption issues, notification issues, etc. I do like that the desktop client is temporarily standalone in that the phone running the app does not need to be available, although I have had to re-connect the two every once in a while so I don't find it reassuring to depend on the desktop client alone.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
There is bad blood between F-Droid and the Signal devs. I don’t expect the app to ever appear on F-Droid. Signal’s developers are on record as preferring the Google Play store as the official distribution method, and even downloading the APK directly from the Signal website is something they tolerate only grudgingly. Plus, some are predicting that forthcoming changes to Android – Google possibly mainstreaming its “advanced protection” model so that phone owners cannot install the F-Droid APK except through enabling ADB and pushing it to the phone from a computer over the command line – will further marginalize F-Droid.
- sliken 6y ago
  Not sure about today, but didn't f-droid sign all apps with an f-droid key, meaning you have to trust f-droid instead of Whisper systems? From a security point of view it seems quite reasonable to object to f-droid handling all signatures.
  - codethief 6y ago

davb 6y ago

I'd probably switch to (and get friends to switch to) Signal if it supported Android Tablets and had a web app (like web.whatsapp.com). Those items might seem minor but having to always have my phone next to me, even when I'm browsing on my tablet, is inconvenient. Same goes for not being able to login easily to a semi-trusted device via the web (e.g. my work laptop - I don't want to install the desktop client, but I trust it enough to login to a web app, possibly in an incognito window).

sabellito 6y ago
Same here. The web client is extremely convenient.
- ArnoVW 6y ago
  There's a desktop client that may be of use to you.
  - jandrese 6y ago
    The desktop client is sadly a bloated Electron app that has to be paired with your phone. Thankfully it's not completely hopeless as the pairing only has to happen once and it doesn't require your phone to be online all the time to work.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Does Signal really not run on Android tablets? While you do need to receive an SMS to set up a Signal account, you can receive that SMS on any other device, even a dumbphone.
ggm 6y ago
It does work on tablets, but its a side load apk, and unlike laptop/desktop it cannot be used as an "adjunct" to your phone: it becomes an independent entity or takes over the entire state.

sabellito 6y ago

I'd switch to signal over telegram if it had a web client :(

dilippkumar 6y ago

Comparing Signal features with Whatsapp I have two thoughts: 1. I noticed that Whatsapp allows me to add someone to a call (sort of like upgrading a phone call to a group call). I couldn't find a way to do that with Signal - although Signal supports group calls (that is, calling an entire group at once). It's a minor feature, but I discovered that I rely upon it quite often. 2. Last year, I attempted to switch from iOS to Android - and I discovered that there isn't a clean way to move my whatsapp messages over. On iOS, whatsapp creates a backup on iCloud, there isn't any way to recover that on Android. I aborted the attempt to switch to Android only because losing my whatsapp chat history was unacceptable. Signal currently seems to be just as bad. However, if signal can implement a reasonable way to create backups and recover them across devices and operating systems, it will seal the deal and convince me to permanently delete whatsapp from all my devices.

dave_sid 6y ago

Band Mule has chat built in to it. As well as a calendar, scheduler, set list manager and audio player.

wwright 6y ago

I think it’s interesting that not many people here bring up Discord. It’s by far the most challenging competitor for the average user, IMO. Full of features and very easy to use.

moosebear847 6y ago
Discord imo feels like 10 different spammy chat concert halls (rooms of 50+ people). Feature-wise though it has great group audio chat, and okay(a bit low-quality)-but-immediately-available video chat.
Labo333 6y ago
Discord is awesome but does not have support for end-to-end encryption AFAIK
- wwright 6y ago
  Most people care a LOT more about the easy audio and video chat.

Evidlo 6y ago

So is everyone OK with this big migration to another centralized service that doesn't interoperate? Imagine if e-mail had been like this. You can't talk to your friends if they have a different provider, and you're not allowed to use your own client anymore.

BoysenberryPi 6y ago
Can you not just place a regular call over wifi through Signal? It typically requires a phone number so I don't see why it wouldn't allow that.
evilos 6y ago
Well signal does have the SMS fallback, it's just not secure. But neither is email.

CalChris 6y ago

It's interesting to look open Signal and see a steady influx of my contacts show up as new users.

rho4 6y ago

To me signal is like the new charging standard or version control system to rule them all: I am now forced to juggle (n + 1) versions in my life. And no web client means I am forced to type on my mobile (ugh), and I cannot mitigate the hurt with Franz.

hans1729 6y ago
fwiw, signal has a decent client for macos
celsoazevedo 6y ago
They have a desktop client. It's very basic though.

maciejw 6y ago

Some months ago Delta Chat [0] trended on HN. I think in a perfect world email based chat would solve a lot of the problems with current apps like Whatsapp or even Signal. But based on Gmail popularity I assume it would just mean that Google would get the data in most cases. [0] https://delta.chat https://delta.chat

kawfey 6y ago

I want to make my Signal (i.e. my personal cell phone number) public, but I don't want to put my cell phone number up to the internet to open up spam and MITM 2FA SMS attacks. What's the best way to do this? Burner SIM? Google Voice number? Landline service? Go find a payphone?

thekyle 6y ago
Google Voice would probably be the best free option.
codethief 6y ago
Or you wait till Signal works without phone numbers. See https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_private_messenger_team_here_we_support_an/giks8hv/ https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/kt91qk/signal_p...

bravura 6y ago

The "tied to your phone number" thing is weird for me, both Telegram and Signal. If you want to change your phone number, how do these platforms handle it? Do your contacts get updated or what? What happens to people with your old number? If your phone breaks, and you get a new one, how do they handle backups? (My iPhone's WhatsApp backups somehow disappeared when I got a droid.) These questions are particularly infuriating for digital nomads and people living abroad. I want an inexpensive cheap way to keep my US number I've had for 10 years. I've also heard horror stories that Google Voice (or Fi? Can't figure it out) will shut down your account if you live internationally.

JustinGarrison 6y ago
I have a link in the post on how to use a twilio number instead of your real phone number. Signal PINS is the first step to making non-phone number identification work. https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059792-Signal-PIN https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059792-Si...
mynameisash 6y ago
I have no idea about phone number changes (I've had the same phone number for 20 years), but my phone broke not terribly long ago and I had to reinstall everything. As I recall, my Signal data came back just fine. Looks like you have to enable it[0], so I assume that's what I did. > The "tied to your phone number" thing is weird for me, both Telegram and Signal. Isn't this restriction also applicable to WhatsApp? [0] https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059752-Backup-and-Restore-Messages#android_enable https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007059752-Ba...

shireboy 6y ago

I'll probably burn some karma on this, but I have to ask as I'm genuinely trying to form a consistent opinion on these topics and understand better. Given that lots of people on HN are advocating in favor of Parler being deplatformed on the grounds it was used by groups to advocate and coordinate violence, and given that it's not a stretch to imagine that e2e encrypted communication apps like Signal have groups on them spreading "fake news" and "advocating violence" and cannot be moderated, how does one reconcile supporting Signal/Telegram/WhatsApp, but not Parler? What's the fundamental moral or technical difference that makes one ethical but not the other?

throwaway829 6y ago
Parler has right wing users. Telegram has not been labeled right wing. That's the difference.
- anderber 6y ago
  This is not true, Parler was actively trying to be right wing and saying they're just about free speech. Their moderation says otherwise.
  - eplanit 6y ago
    Twitter claims to be neutral but their moderation reveals their active left-bias.
    - berkes 6y ago
      Without backup or evidence, that sounds like a very populist thing to say. Makes me wonder if with data, math and statistics 'right' or 'left' can be distinguished at all: since they are so ambiguous and fluid concepts.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
anderber 6y ago

b0tch7 6y ago

Question for you smart people: I don't have a FB Profile hence don't have the FB App nor FB Messenger, but I do use whatsapp extensively. Do I need to be overly concerned with whatsapp's privacy changes?

djsumdog 6y ago

I connected Singal the other day to my Matrix server via a bridge: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-rule-them-all/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/matrix-one-chat-protocol-to-r... I currently have Hangouts/Messenger/Telegram and Signal all connected via bridges to Matrix. I pump all my Facebook/Messenger/Hangouts traffic in my browser through a VPN to the server where the bridges are hosted so Google/Messenger won't flag them for security. This took a couple of tries of logging in outside of the proxy to FB, getting the security warning and then switching back to the proxy with the same cookies so FB/Google algos learn the IP is safe. Hopefully when I move, if I keep all those same rules in place (using FoxyProxy for Firefox or Chrome-based browsers) and turning off location on my Android device permanently (will also move to a PinePhone soon), I can make it difficult for Google/FB to know my location after I move from my current city. Singal and Telegram are great because they have standard APIs that make it easy for a Matrix Bridge. For FB and Google I have to trick them, which makes them hostile to developers and tech people. We've had to do this for years with libpurple plugins as well: https://battlepenguin.com/tech/there-is-an-ios-device-attached-to-my-google-account-and-i-do-not-own-any-apple-products/ https://battlepenguin.com/tech/there-is-an-ios-device-attach...

dbg31415 6y ago

I really want to like Signal, just... it's so shitty at times. Discord and Slack are great. Even Microsoft Teams. Shitty things about Signal: 1) When you set "Disappearing Messages" it's for any messages that come in after that point. I think it should be for the whole thread. Even though the UX implies it's for the entire conversation, it's really just for messages sent after the setting was changed. Moreover... let's say you change the settings a few times... you have no idea if / when individual messages will disappear. 2) When you delete a message on your phone, it's still on your desktop -- and everyone else's devices. It's really frustrating that if I send a typo, I can't delete it or fix it. Worse, it appears to delete... and being native to Discord / Slack / Teams... I expect it to delete for everyone. They did change message text from "Delete" to "Delete message for me" but even that doesn't even delete across all my devices. 3) You can't edit messages after you send them. 4) Functionality is different on a phone vs a desktop. You can't do nearly as much on the desktop version. 5) It's funky when you change phones. You can't like sync all your old messages from one device to another. It'll pull them on to a Desktop client, but it won't pull them into a new Mobile phone client. Dunno, just bad UX. 6) Signal is still based on phone numbers... I don't trust phone number based 2FA, so I don't really trust Signal to be based on phone numbers either. But it's not all bad! Some things they added which make it feel less horrible... they finally did add meta data previews for URLs. That was nice. They added ability to give tapbacks / emjoi responses, and "reply" to messages. I think all this in the last year or so. They're working on it... but like it still feels like they're aiming for shitty old cell phone text messages as what they are trying to replace... I wish they were aiming for Discord / Slack / Teams as those platforms have really done a great job with chat. By far, the platform with the most improvement was Microsoft Teams. They had this wonky Skype For Business who knows hybrid approach. And they had a lot of the same issues around messages not being synced between devices. They fixed that in the last 18 months. I've been using Signal since Snowden, but in my opinion Signal still has a long way to go before it's something I would actually want to use to chat with friends.

hiq 6y ago
> 1) ... you have no idea if / when individual messages will disappear. There's a small clock between the sending date and the (double) tick which indicates just that. Also, I think it's recent, but if you select a message then click the 'i' (information) at the top there's a countdown that says exactly in how much time it disappears. > 4) Functionality is different on a phone vs a desktop. You can't do nearly as much on the desktop version. Which features are you missing on the desktop version? They seem to have implemented calls recently, I'm not sure what's still missing. I mostly write text messages though, so I wouldn't know. > 5) It's funky when you change phones. You can't like sync all your old messages from one device to another. It'll pull them on to a Desktop client, but it won't pull them into a new Mobile phone client. Dunno, just bad UX. Is it better with e.g. WhatsApp? You have to transfer the backup files anyway, right? If you're on Android it should boil down to transferring the backup files, just like with WhatsApp. It does suck on iOS from what I've read. > 6) Signal is still based on phone numbers... I don't trust phone number based 2FA, so I don't really trust Signal to be based on phone numbers either. Phone numbers are a problem, but they're on a good track to get rid of them while still providing the same privacy. In the meantime, I don't think it's a security risk if you have a random pin. If you compare Signal with Discord, Slack and Microsoft Teams, Signal will never win on features. AFAIK these are not E2EE and they don't really try to reduce the metadata or even data known by the servers. Basically a feature vs. security trade-off.

patrickdavey 6y ago

I love signal, or at least the idea of it. I've been trying to get family onto it and away from WhatsApp for years, and we finally tried this week. Unfortunately, my messages to the family group are stuck spinning (24 hours now) and I'm not seeing any new messages in the group (and should be). Nightmare. If anyone knows a fix I'd love to hear it (have tried leaving the group and rejoining, restarting phone etc)

lasfallas 6y ago

I wish Signal had a setting for alternative media handling. Guessing that a lot of WhatsApp users like myself rely on the built in media backup to Google Drive. The automatically, well ordered media stored locally on the phone, with dates received in filenames, is great for people who like to have local media backups. WhatsApp image folder can also be added to services like the Google Pictures backup. All those missing features are Signal deal breakers for some people