9 ms·

Is it me or there's some cognitive dissonance going on with the whole article discussing the ramifications of a nationalization without describing at all what s

by xster 6y ago

Is it me or there's some cognitive dissonance going on with the whole article discussing the ramifications of a nationalization without describing at all what sourced this "news" in the first place? A cursory search seems to show this is a regurgitation on a sourceless Radio Free Asia article (https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/alibaba-probe-12252020170303.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/alibaba-probe-1225202...) from December?

DaedPsyker 6y ago
I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  Shitty reporting is not always the CCPs fault.
- xster 6y ago
  How are you sourcing that conclusion? I'm not well versed but I enjoy watching finance related UGC and analyses on Bilibili. There's certainly tons of in-depth content and discussion about Ant's leveraging practices and the involvement of financial regulations.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US people generally have actually a surprising amount of understanding of the basic structure of government, values and so on. You go to a very educated audience in the US or other Western nations and it's still embarrassing. And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    > lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant It's crazy how tied to a warped view of China people get. Like, I have serious issues with China too, but the picture many people seem to have in their mind is just not modern China whatsoever.
  - quonn 6y ago
    > The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. > And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously. The West will mostly separate production within about a decade or two. It‘s not a problem at all.
    - bun_at_work 6y ago
      Do you have any sources to support the claim that the West will separate production within a decade or two?
      - quonn 6y ago
        My reading of the news in the last year or so and connecting the dots. I‘m not the only one saying it of course.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - scarmig 6y ago
      >> misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions > It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. This is exactly the kind of reductive thinking that is getting the West into trouble. There is no dictatorship system. At most, it points to a non-democratic system. But that term covers an incredibly wide variety of regimes, from 1920s Portugal to Latin American Cold War authoritarian regimes to the USSR to Maoist China to contemporary China, and all of them are very different creatures. The differences between these are much wider than the differences between democratic systems (e.g. US vs Israel vs India), which are already very wide.
thewarrior 6y ago
Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.
- devy 6y ago
  Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authoritarian countries. I used to know a number of its journalists, and they strive for neutrality and factual reporting in places where that is not allowed. It's the Asian version of Radio Marti, or Radio Free Europe. Funded by the U.S. taxpayers, run by the U.S. government, to bring information to the world. There's nothing new here. This has been going on longer than most of us have been alive. It's like BBC News, but without all of the sensationalism that has crept into the Beeb over the last couple of decades. Trying to paint it as some kind of covert propaganda machine illustrates a lack of knowledge, or a personal political agenda.
  - Leary 6y ago
    NYTimes seems to disagree: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propaganda-network-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      That article is 44 years old. RFA isn't part of the CIA. It's part of U.S. Agency for Global Media. From Wikipedia: an independent agency of the United States government which operates various state-run media outlets.[2] It describes its mission, "vital to US national interests", to "inform, engage, and connect people around the world in support of freedom and democracy"[3] and in accordance with the "broad foreign policy objectives of the United States".[4] USAGM supervises Voice of America (VOA), Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio y Televisión Martí, Radio Free Asia, and Alhurra TV and Radio Sawa.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
The RFA references Song Qing, "Internet finance industry insider": "These nationalizations are definitely happening, and [the antitrust investigation] will likely speed up that process," Song said. "It's also, I think, about making an example of [Ant and Alibaba]." So I would trust the article as much as I would trust Song Qing.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  So I would trust the article as much as I would trust Song Qing. What does that mean in this context? What do you know about Song Qing that the rest of us don't that makes him untrustworthy? A quick search didn't come up with anything. Do you have an informative link?
  - eloff 6y ago
    What do you know that makes him trustworthy? This is just a rumor spread by a single person at the point. Not very substantial at all. About as believable as when Sally at work says there's layoffs coming - but she's the receptionist.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      Because I trust the reporters at RFA and RFA's long-earned reputation not to select Sally the receptionist as a credible source. That's the difference between bloggers and journalists. That's why I want to know who this person is, and why I asked the critic for more information about him. I trust RFA more than I trust some rando commenter on HN.
      - eloff 6y ago
        You also have to weigh that with how unusual the news is. The more unlikely the event the more credible the source would need to be. This doesn't seem impossible knowing the CCP, but it would take more than a single source rumor before I'd consider it credible.
      - 6y ago
dang 6y ago
I think we need to wait until there's something more substantial to go on. The headline makes it sound like this is a thing, when in fact (as far as we know so far?) it's a rumor. There's a long tradition of "$Person hasn't been seen in public -> gigantic dramatic narrative" in media stories about authoritarian countries. No doubt it's great for clicks, but these things mostly turn out not to be true. If this one turns out to be true, we'll certainly find out and discuss it then. Edit: also, there have already been a bunch of major threads on basically this same story: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22jack%20ma%22%20comments%3E10%20points%3E10&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

by xster 6y ago

DaedPsyker 6y ago

I think the CCP is mostly at fault. They wanted to control and limit discussion and even news on alibaba so of course people are going to speculate in the absence of information.

whimsicalism 6y ago
Shitty reporting is not always the CCPs fault.
xster 6y ago
How are you sourcing that conclusion? I'm not well versed but I enjoy watching finance related UGC and analyses on Bilibili. There's certainly tons of in-depth content and discussion about Ant's leveraging practices and the involvement of financial regulations.
Barrin92 6y ago
Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US people generally have actually a surprising amount of understanding of the basic structure of government, values and so on. You go to a very educated audience in the US or other Western nations and it's still embarrassing. And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant It's crazy how tied to a warped view of China people get. Like, I have serious issues with China too, but the picture many people seem to have in their mind is just not modern China whatsoever.
- quonn 6y ago
  > The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. > And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously. The West will mostly separate production within about a decade or two. It‘s not a problem at all.
  - bun_at_work 6y ago
    Do you have any sources to support the claim that the West will separate production within a decade or two?
    - quonn 6y ago
      My reading of the news in the last year or so and connecting the dots. I‘m not the only one saying it of course.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - scarmig 6y ago
    >> misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions > It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. This is exactly the kind of reductive thinking that is getting the West into trouble. There is no dictatorship system. At most, it points to a non-democratic system. But that term covers an incredibly wide variety of regimes, from 1920s Portugal to Latin American Cold War authoritarian regimes to the USSR to Maoist China to contemporary China, and all of them are very different creatures. The differences between these are much wider than the differences between democratic systems (e.g. US vs Israel vs India), which are already very wide.

thewarrior 6y ago

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.

devy 6y ago
Yep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Asia
reaperducer 6y ago
Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authoritarian countries. I used to know a number of its journalists, and they strive for neutrality and factual reporting in places where that is not allowed. It's the Asian version of Radio Marti, or Radio Free Europe. Funded by the U.S. taxpayers, run by the U.S. government, to bring information to the world. There's nothing new here. This has been going on longer than most of us have been alive. It's like BBC News, but without all of the sensationalism that has crept into the Beeb over the last couple of decades. Trying to paint it as some kind of covert propaganda machine illustrates a lack of knowledge, or a personal political agenda.
- Leary 6y ago
  NYTimes seems to disagree: https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propaganda-network-built-by-the-cia-a-worldwide-network.html https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    That article is 44 years old. RFA isn't part of the CIA. It's part of U.S. Agency for Global Media. From Wikipedia: an independent agency of the United States government which operates various state-run media outlets.[2] It describes its mission, "vital to US national interests", to "inform, engage, and connect people around the world in support of freedom and democracy"[3] and in accordance with the "broad foreign policy objectives of the United States".[4] USAGM supervises Voice of America (VOA), Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio y Televisión Martí, Radio Free Asia, and Alhurra TV and Radio Sawa.

bigpumpkin 6y ago

The RFA references Song Qing, "Internet finance industry insider": "These nationalizations are definitely happening, and [the antitrust investigation] will likely speed up that process," Song said. "It's also, I think, about making an example of [Ant and Alibaba]." So I would trust the article as much as I would trust Song Qing.

reaperducer 6y ago
So I would trust the article as much as I would trust Song Qing. What does that mean in this context? What do you know about Song Qing that the rest of us don't that makes him untrustworthy? A quick search didn't come up with anything. Do you have an informative link?
- eloff 6y ago
  What do you know that makes him trustworthy? This is just a rumor spread by a single person at the point. Not very substantial at all. About as believable as when Sally at work says there's layoffs coming - but she's the receptionist.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Because I trust the reporters at RFA and RFA's long-earned reputation not to select Sally the receptionist as a credible source. That's the difference between bloggers and journalists. That's why I want to know who this person is, and why I asked the critic for more information about him. I trust RFA more than I trust some rando commenter on HN.
    - eloff 6y ago
      You also have to weigh that with how unusual the news is. The more unlikely the event the more credible the source would need to be. This doesn't seem impossible knowing the CCP, but it would take more than a single source rumor before I'd consider it credible.
    - 6y ago

dang 6y ago

I think we need to wait until there's something more substantial to go on. The headline makes it sound like this is a thing, when in fact (as far as we know so far?) it's a rumor. There's a long tradition of "$Person hasn't been seen in public -> gigantic dramatic narrative" in media stories about authoritarian countries. No doubt it's great for clicks, but these things mostly turn out not to be true. If this one turns out to be true, we'll certainly find out and discuss it then. Edit: also, there have already been a bunch of major threads on basically this same story: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22jack%20ma%22%20comments%3E10%20points%3E10&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...