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The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's

The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. I was in a federal prison camp and it is primarily an exercise in leisure. The entire day was composed of well.. nothing. If you like reading, fresh air, and exercise you're in luck. If you like alcohol, drugs, and facetime you're in luck. There is very little programming activity to do. If you have the funds to support yourself you can get anything you want from the outside. You can have any book sent in or buy an illicit cell phone. There are so few guards to watch you and very little motivation to crack down on rampant offenses. The First Step Act is supposed to make programming uniform across all institutions and reward programming with sentence reductions. That's a fantastic idea and I hope that it works out well. There are very few levels to pull to incentivize people, but that should provide motivation. The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home. It was unpleasant to work as a laborer in block masonry, but it lead me back to the shipyard. That has lead me to a better opportunity in the shipyard. This was only afforded to me because I went to a university with name recognition in a field with job prospects. That combined with my previous maritime experience is the only reason I'm not still day laboring will praying for a better opportunity. If you have limited work experience and were accustomed to a high(er) level of living before incarceration it will be difficult to adjust to life after prison. There are so many thorny issues with the judicial system in the USA that reach into so many aspects of life.

clairity 6y ago
thanks for relating your incarceration story. with the benefit of hindsight, 'tough on crime' was plainly power exerting itself on the populace to enhance its own esteem, not an exercise in creating a more just society. let's cut every sentence (and sentencing guidelines) by 90% right off the bat and use the savings for better rehabilitation programs (like more support systems, instructional content, and training programs). involve families and communities to integrate folks back into society.
- rwmurrayVT 6y ago
  I will say that my sentence and incarceration was a good personal experience. I did actually receive every thing I needed to get it sorted out. I was in RDAP and had plenty of time for introspection. You get out what you put in, but for most there are not enough things you can put in.
  - clairity 6y ago
    yes, some folks (at certain points in their lives) need more guidance to find their way. hopefully that's what we can work towards, rather than just lock-em up for as long as we can.
- SubuSS 6y ago
  I can sympathize with how this will work out for non-career criminals. How do you see this working out for repeat offenders? Seattle today has a mini-version of this FWIW: We have offenders who have 44+ counts of 'minor' arrests and a felony conviction on the street [1] getting involved in public shootings. Overall I like the part where folks who have paid their dues get their life back through a measured re-introduction back into regular society (from jail). Even over here, we will need oversight from professionals who have insight into both the worlds who can help with the transition. I don't think commuting sentences by 90% is the answer. [1] https://komonews.com/news/local/who-are-the-alleged-downtown-seattle-shooters https://komonews.com/news/local/who-are-the-alleged-downtown...
  - jsjsbdkj 6y ago
    The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. The very notion of a "career criminal" is driven by the lack of a social safety net and inability to secure a job on release. I can imagine if you're homeless and targeted by the police it would be very easy to rack up 50 arrests in a year. If it was possible for everyone to make a living wage the vast majority of "career criminals" would choose a less dangerous way to make a living.
  - _underfl0w_ 6y ago
cubano 6y ago
> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know plenty of you reading this with your secure jobs and paychecks have done illegal things and not been caught...well what if you were? I mean I hear all day all the "protections" that this group and that group are getting recognized for, and meanwhile all I want is an opportunity to work my ass off in the field that I have loved since I was a 13yo kid riding my bike to the local Radio Shack on weekends so I could literally sit-in the window display and program on the TRS-80 and save my "work" to a cassette drive. But no...hiring me (or anyone else in my situation) would apparently pose such an existential threat to companies so in need of people with my exact talent stack that I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago. I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseum here on HN, so I don't expect any new answers to my questions, but maybe a few of you with open ears and the ability to think outside the box when it comes to hiring could be a bit more understanding if a qualified candidate with past legal issues come thru your interview process.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago Is there any legislative push to seal records of non-violent offenders after N years of non-recividism? Seven years for most crimes, and fourteen for fraud and corruption would seem fair.
  - BikiniPrince 6y ago
    You can in some circumstances depending on the crime and age of offense. What can you convince a judge to do is all I know. My home town had a deputy that wanted to be a sheriff or had won the position. However, they had a minor record. Parents filed statutory rape charges because he was 18 and she was 17. They just didn’t like him and they were eventually married later. Still, he carried they charge for 20 years. The sealing or removal was made public notice and of course everyone talks. In the grand scheme of things it was his wife and the age difference issue was amended in law. Because people recognize kids don’t magically not socialize on 18.
mumblemumble 6y ago
> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home. I'm so happy to hear that you had that. A while back, a member of my community was not so lucky. He got caught with an ounce of pot, spent some time in prison. When he got out, he had no legitimate job prospects due to his criminal record. He did eventually a job, though, through networking. In this case, the network was some prison acquaintances - apparently the only people who would/could offer him an opportunity. A while later he got caught stealing cars for a chop shop. Rinse and repeat. I don't think I really understood it until I saw it with my own eyes: the US criminal justice system, by being so retributive, isn't just (wantonly, excessively) harming people who get caught. It's also a significant cause of US crime in the first place.
- the_only_law 6y ago
  Not exactly the same, as I believe there were more than drugs involved, but several years ago, I met someone who had been through the system in his youth. I didn’t really like the guy at first, as he was rather volatile and could suddenly turn aggressive (diagnosed bipolar, don’t know if he was actively treated at the time), but as time went on we were mostly cool. Eventually he would tell me about his life, how he had gone to school for three years, but had to drop out for a variety of reasons. He would talk about his time spent homeless and the things he would do to get by or protect his stuff. It was pretty clear he wasn’t ok mentally. He couldn’t find good work, due to his record, and felt condemned to working a near minimum wage job to support him and his wife in the run down town we lived in. Eventually, he started getting erratic, confronting his managers about issues with his paycheck among other things. One morning, we heard he had crashed his car into a ditch and I didn’t hear anything from or about him for several months until a mutual acquaintance had informed me he had committed suicide at 27.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  Why do these people stay in the US? In Europe if you say that you were imprisoned for smoking pot, people will just laugh at the situation, because it’s so hard to believe.
  - 6y ago
gowld 6y ago
Since it's HN, to clarify: When you write "programming", do you mean "writing software", "rehabilition activities", or both?
- rwmurrayVT 6y ago
  Programming in this context means activities that are available to better yourself. There are very little chances for education, skill training, drug therapy, etc. It varies wildly institution to institution.
tyingq 6y ago
"The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever." This is worse than it used to be, as companies of any size can now pull not just convictions, but arrests as well. And not just felonies, but misdemeanors too. Background checks used to be less accessible. They are now cheap, fast, and easily nationwide or worldwide.
- jimnotgym 6y ago
  Arrests? That surely is a clear violation of the principle of innocent until proven guilty?
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Arrested people are not a protected class so employers are free to discriminate based on that criteria.
- rwmurrayVT 6y ago
  Every one and their mother can run a background check or google your name to find your history. It's very accessible compared to even 10 years ago.
kace91 6y ago
> The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. Don't you think one helps with the other? Honest question. As in, the less people in the system, the easier it would be to dedicate to each person the resources needed to rehabilitate, rather than just keeping them inside?
- rwmurrayVT 6y ago
  Yes. The smaller the population the more resources per person.
DaedPsyker 6y ago
Why does it need to be just programming? I don't understand this attitude, whether in schools or jail, program, program, program. I program too, its my job so I get it provides a living but my God do we get myopic at times. Other careers, good ones too are out there.
- njovin 6y ago
  "Programming" in this context refers to having rehabilitation programs in place for prisoners, not computer programming.
- mroset 6y ago
  I believe programming in this context means "scheduled (often educational) activities", not coding.
SkyBelow 6y ago
>The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. Do people generally want rehabilitation? I find that when I talk to people, they want rehabilitation for minor crimes and retribution for major crimes, but when feel comfortable enough with talking about it, they generally don't want the minor crimes to be illegal to begin with. Once you get them to discuss the group they actually want in prison, it tends to consist of people they retribution against. Try asking people what is a crime that deserve 2 years of prison, give or take a year. I find few are able to place crimes into that window, even though 2 years is plenty of time to rehabilitation people if one was actively working at it.
- rwmurrayVT 6y ago
  There is also a large disparity between drug crimes and financial crimes. The mandatory minimum for 1 pound of heroin or cocaine was 2x-5x my entire sentence for securities fraud that caused substantial financial swings by even the most lenient of accounting.

clairity 6y ago

thanks for relating your incarceration story. with the benefit of hindsight, 'tough on crime' was plainly power exerting itself on the populace to enhance its own esteem, not an exercise in creating a more just society. let's cut every sentence (and sentencing guidelines) by 90% right off the bat and use the savings for better rehabilitation programs (like more support systems, instructional content, and training programs). involve families and communities to integrate folks back into society.

rwmurrayVT 6y ago
I will say that my sentence and incarceration was a good personal experience. I did actually receive every thing I needed to get it sorted out. I was in RDAP and had plenty of time for introspection. You get out what you put in, but for most there are not enough things you can put in.
- clairity 6y ago
  yes, some folks (at certain points in their lives) need more guidance to find their way. hopefully that's what we can work towards, rather than just lock-em up for as long as we can.
SubuSS 6y ago
I can sympathize with how this will work out for non-career criminals. How do you see this working out for repeat offenders? Seattle today has a mini-version of this FWIW: We have offenders who have 44+ counts of 'minor' arrests and a felony conviction on the street [1] getting involved in public shootings. Overall I like the part where folks who have paid their dues get their life back through a measured re-introduction back into regular society (from jail). Even over here, we will need oversight from professionals who have insight into both the worlds who can help with the transition. I don't think commuting sentences by 90% is the answer. [1] https://komonews.com/news/local/who-are-the-alleged-downtown-seattle-shooters https://komonews.com/news/local/who-are-the-alleged-downtown...
- jsjsbdkj 6y ago
  The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. The very notion of a "career criminal" is driven by the lack of a social safety net and inability to secure a job on release. I can imagine if you're homeless and targeted by the police it would be very easy to rack up 50 arrests in a year. If it was possible for everyone to make a living wage the vast majority of "career criminals" would choose a less dangerous way to make a living.
- _underfl0w_ 6y ago

cubano 6y ago

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. Tell me about it. Between my prison "stigma" and the discriminatory ageism that is very prevalent in the industry, and even though I have 30 years professional programming experience, I am currently finding it impossible to find any work. Can someone please tell me...what am I supposed to do at age 55? Find a new "career"...doing what? I know plenty of you reading this with your secure jobs and paychecks have done illegal things and not been caught...well what if you were? I mean I hear all day all the "protections" that this group and that group are getting recognized for, and meanwhile all I want is an opportunity to work my ass off in the field that I have loved since I was a 13yo kid riding my bike to the local Radio Shack on weekends so I could literally sit-in the window display and program on the TRS-80 and save my "work" to a cassette drive. But no...hiring me (or anyone else in my situation) would apparently pose such an existential threat to companies so in need of people with my exact talent stack that I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago. I know this subject has been discussed ad nauseum here on HN, so I don't expect any new answers to my questions, but maybe a few of you with open ears and the ability to think outside the box when it comes to hiring could be a bit more understanding if a qualified candidate with past legal issues come thru your interview process.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> I can't even be considered once it's discovered I went to prison some 20 years ago Is there any legislative push to seal records of non-violent offenders after N years of non-recividism? Seven years for most crimes, and fourteen for fraud and corruption would seem fair.
- BikiniPrince 6y ago
  You can in some circumstances depending on the crime and age of offense. What can you convince a judge to do is all I know. My home town had a deputy that wanted to be a sheriff or had won the position. However, they had a minor record. Parents filed statutory rape charges because he was 18 and she was 17. They just didn’t like him and they were eventually married later. Still, he carried they charge for 20 years. The sealing or removal was made public notice and of course everyone talks. In the grand scheme of things it was his wife and the age difference issue was amended in law. Because people recognize kids don’t magically not socialize on 18.

mumblemumble 6y ago

> The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever. I count myself blessed to have opportunities when I came home. I'm so happy to hear that you had that. A while back, a member of my community was not so lucky. He got caught with an ounce of pot, spent some time in prison. When he got out, he had no legitimate job prospects due to his criminal record. He did eventually a job, though, through networking. In this case, the network was some prison acquaintances - apparently the only people who would/could offer him an opportunity. A while later he got caught stealing cars for a chop shop. Rinse and repeat. I don't think I really understood it until I saw it with my own eyes: the US criminal justice system, by being so retributive, isn't just (wantonly, excessively) harming people who get caught. It's also a significant cause of US crime in the first place.

the_only_law 6y ago
Not exactly the same, as I believe there were more than drugs involved, but several years ago, I met someone who had been through the system in his youth. I didn’t really like the guy at first, as he was rather volatile and could suddenly turn aggressive (diagnosed bipolar, don’t know if he was actively treated at the time), but as time went on we were mostly cool. Eventually he would tell me about his life, how he had gone to school for three years, but had to drop out for a variety of reasons. He would talk about his time spent homeless and the things he would do to get by or protect his stuff. It was pretty clear he wasn’t ok mentally. He couldn’t find good work, due to his record, and felt condemned to working a near minimum wage job to support him and his wife in the run down town we lived in. Eventually, he started getting erratic, confronting his managers about issues with his paycheck among other things. One morning, we heard he had crashed his car into a ditch and I didn’t hear anything from or about him for several months until a mutual acquaintance had informed me he had committed suicide at 27.
xiphias2 6y ago
Why do these people stay in the US? In Europe if you say that you were imprisoned for smoking pot, people will just laugh at the situation, because it’s so hard to believe.
- 6y ago

gowld 6y ago

Since it's HN, to clarify: When you write "programming", do you mean "writing software", "rehabilition activities", or both?

rwmurrayVT 6y ago
Programming in this context means activities that are available to better yourself. There are very little chances for education, skill training, drug therapy, etc. It varies wildly institution to institution.

tyingq 6y ago

"The problem after that is the stigma that follows you around forever." This is worse than it used to be, as companies of any size can now pull not just convictions, but arrests as well. And not just felonies, but misdemeanors too. Background checks used to be less accessible. They are now cheap, fast, and easily nationwide or worldwide.

jimnotgym 6y ago
Arrests? That surely is a clear violation of the principle of innocent until proven guilty?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Arrested people are not a protected class so employers are free to discriminate based on that criteria.
rwmurrayVT 6y ago
Every one and their mother can run a background check or google your name to find your history. It's very accessible compared to even 10 years ago.

kace91 6y ago

> The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. Don't you think one helps with the other? Honest question. As in, the less people in the system, the easier it would be to dedicate to each person the resources needed to rehabilitate, rather than just keeping them inside?

rwmurrayVT 6y ago
Yes. The smaller the population the more resources per person.

DaedPsyker 6y ago

Why does it need to be just programming? I don't understand this attitude, whether in schools or jail, program, program, program. I program too, its my job so I get it provides a living but my God do we get myopic at times. Other careers, good ones too are out there.

njovin 6y ago
"Programming" in this context refers to having rehabilitation programs in place for prisoners, not computer programming.
mroset 6y ago
I believe programming in this context means "scheduled (often educational) activities", not coding.

SkyBelow 6y ago

>The #1 issue in the USA beyond simple conviction and incarceration is rehabilitation. At the federal level, where I have personal experience, it seems like it's entirely retribution instead of rehabilitation. Do people generally want rehabilitation? I find that when I talk to people, they want rehabilitation for minor crimes and retribution for major crimes, but when feel comfortable enough with talking about it, they generally don't want the minor crimes to be illegal to begin with. Once you get them to discuss the group they actually want in prison, it tends to consist of people they retribution against. Try asking people what is a crime that deserve 2 years of prison, give or take a year. I find few are able to place crimes into that window, even though 2 years is plenty of time to rehabilitation people if one was actively working at it.

rwmurrayVT 6y ago
There is also a large disparity between drug crimes and financial crimes. The mandatory minimum for 1 pound of heroin or cocaine was 2x-5x my entire sentence for securities fraud that caused substantial financial swings by even the most lenient of accounting.