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Access to legal counsel is in a special category. Law firms are expected to represent people accused of the very worst crimes in order to promote a just outcome

by edbob 6y ago

Access to legal counsel is in a special category. Law firms are expected to represent people accused of the very worst crimes in order to promote a just outcome. It's extremely disturbing that political actions which may be distasteful but could never be prosecuted as crimes in normal circumstances have become a justification to harass law firms until they refuse to represent a client. I say "normal circumstances" because I'm not sure how long it will be until we get show trials and mass convictions of political figures.

NineStarPoint 6y ago
Do you have reason to believe that it’s harassment that is stopping these people from getting legal counsel? Many of these people, Trump especially, have shown that they refuse to listen to legal council and will lie for no good reason at all, then throw their legal council under the bus if it seems like it will advantage them. There are many good reasons lawyers might not want to touch the current situation with a ten foot pole besides harrasement.
- edbob 6y ago
  I'll give a few quick links, but a quick search turns up dozens and I think you're competent enough to search for yourself. You have public statements of "Yes, going after Trump’s law firms is fair game" and then you have the expected harassment and law firms pulling out en masse. Maybe the client's toxicity is a factor, but that should be the only factor. [0] https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/11/16/exclusive-lawyer-at-pa-secretary-of-states-law-firm-harassed-trump-lawyer-accused-her-of-treason-n1152353 https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/11/1... [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/13/law-firm-drops-trump-campaign-436418 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/13/law-firm-drops-trum... [2] https://thenewamerican.com/new-low-democrats-approve-harassment-of-trump-attorneys/ https://thenewamerican.com/new-low-democrats-approve-harassm...
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    If we start compelling lawyers to provide legal counsel to clients, what protections do we afford those lawyers? In several cases over the last election, Judges threatened lawyers with sanctions and loss of right to practice for bringing forth clearly baseless lawsuits and wasting the court's time. If we affirm that the right to legal counsel is a human right and that corporations also receive that right, how do we protect lawyers from clients which ignore legal counsel and file frivolous that can threaten the lawyer's right to practice law?
cptskippy 6y ago
> Law firms are expected to represent people accused of the very worst crimes in order to promote a just outcome. We're entitled to an attorney when defending ourselves from criminal prosecution, but where does it say we're entitled to legal counsel at any other time? At the end of the day Law Firms are businesses, and again these are just businesses protecting their own self interests. If they end up needing legal counsel for a criminal trial they'll receive it. Otherwise they can just grab a phonebook and start calling ambulance chasers until they find one who will meet their other legal needs.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  There is some advocacy to provide public defenders in civil matters. The reasoning is that financial damages can effectively deny liberty, even though the method differs from criminal. That of course would not mean pressing private firms into public service.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    > That of course would not mean pressing private firms into public service. Even so that wouldn't apply here. Parler lost their private counsel, not their legal counsel.
- edbob 6y ago
  Legal rights are distinct from ideals and principles. "Freedom of speech", for example, is primarily an ideal. It has some encoding in law because it is such a valuable ideal, but no one should conflate the two and think that the ideal of "freedom of speech" doesn't apply unless the law says so. The law is not an ideal. Access to legal representation is similarly an ideal that can't be reduced to its partial encoding in a very flawed legal system.
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    Do you believe that the idea of legal representation as a basic human right applies in the absence of pending litigation? Does corporate personhood extend to the idea of legal representation? Does the right to legal representation mandate that any legal firm be compelled to provide counsel to any client who demands it?

by edbob 6y ago

NineStarPoint 6y ago

Do you have reason to believe that it’s harassment that is stopping these people from getting legal counsel? Many of these people, Trump especially, have shown that they refuse to listen to legal council and will lie for no good reason at all, then throw their legal council under the bus if it seems like it will advantage them. There are many good reasons lawyers might not want to touch the current situation with a ten foot pole besides harrasement.

edbob 6y ago
I'll give a few quick links, but a quick search turns up dozens and I think you're competent enough to search for yourself. You have public statements of "Yes, going after Trump’s law firms is fair game" and then you have the expected harassment and law firms pulling out en masse. Maybe the client's toxicity is a factor, but that should be the only factor. [0] https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/11/16/exclusive-lawyer-at-pa-secretary-of-states-law-firm-harassed-trump-lawyer-accused-her-of-treason-n1152353 https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2020/11/1... [1] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/13/law-firm-drops-trump-campaign-436418 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/13/law-firm-drops-trum... [2] https://thenewamerican.com/new-low-democrats-approve-harassment-of-trump-attorneys/ https://thenewamerican.com/new-low-democrats-approve-harassm...
- cptskippy 6y ago
  If we start compelling lawyers to provide legal counsel to clients, what protections do we afford those lawyers? In several cases over the last election, Judges threatened lawyers with sanctions and loss of right to practice for bringing forth clearly baseless lawsuits and wasting the court's time. If we affirm that the right to legal counsel is a human right and that corporations also receive that right, how do we protect lawyers from clients which ignore legal counsel and file frivolous that can threaten the lawyer's right to practice law?

cptskippy 6y ago

> Law firms are expected to represent people accused of the very worst crimes in order to promote a just outcome. We're entitled to an attorney when defending ourselves from criminal prosecution, but where does it say we're entitled to legal counsel at any other time? At the end of the day Law Firms are businesses, and again these are just businesses protecting their own self interests. If they end up needing legal counsel for a criminal trial they'll receive it. Otherwise they can just grab a phonebook and start calling ambulance chasers until they find one who will meet their other legal needs.

1123581321 6y ago
There is some advocacy to provide public defenders in civil matters. The reasoning is that financial damages can effectively deny liberty, even though the method differs from criminal. That of course would not mean pressing private firms into public service.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  > That of course would not mean pressing private firms into public service. Even so that wouldn't apply here. Parler lost their private counsel, not their legal counsel.
edbob 6y ago
Legal rights are distinct from ideals and principles. "Freedom of speech", for example, is primarily an ideal. It has some encoding in law because it is such a valuable ideal, but no one should conflate the two and think that the ideal of "freedom of speech" doesn't apply unless the law says so. The law is not an ideal. Access to legal representation is similarly an ideal that can't be reduced to its partial encoding in a very flawed legal system.
- cptskippy 6y ago
  Do you believe that the idea of legal representation as a basic human right applies in the absence of pending litigation? Does corporate personhood extend to the idea of legal representation? Does the right to legal representation mandate that any legal firm be compelled to provide counsel to any client who demands it?