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My only response to that is apps that aren’t made to be good macOS citizens wouldn’t even vaguely register on my radar as ‘native’, even if they link against Co

My only response to that is apps that aren’t made to be good macOS citizens wouldn’t even vaguely register on my radar as ‘native’, even if they link against Cocoa. ‘Native’ on Apple platforms isn’t just a technical description, it’s also about UI and, more importantly, UX. Of course, Apple are starting to muddy the waters with UIKit for Mac — but even then, the fact that iOS apps can now run ‘natively’ on macOS goes a long way to showing that just because an app links against the relevant frameworks compiled for the right processor architecture, that doesn’t make it native in the Apple-y sense. Apps made using cross-platform frameworks like Qt and GTK certainly don’t register to me as native. They don’t just work differently, they even look odd. I don’t think this fazes Windows and Linux users/developers as much because there has never been any level of consistency remotely close to what Cocoa and macOS offers — if an app puts a few buttons in a slightly odd place, that’s not seen an a problem. So I agree with your point on a technical basis that my assessment wasn’t 100% technically true — but I think from the point of view of what ‘native apps’ means when discussing Apple platforms, I don’t think I’m too far off the mark.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> My only response to that is apps that aren’t made to be good macOS citizens wouldn’t even vaguely register on my radar as ‘native’, even if they link against Cocoa. Sure. But two things: 1) I wasn't saying that an app that use nib-less techniques couldn't do the right thing - it could. It could appear totally native if someone just does the work. 2) There are several pro creativity apps (Logic, Mainstage being the biggest) that are actually Apple products but they do not adhere to Apple guidelines. They use non-standard widgets, do not fully follow desktop interactivity guidelines, use the keyboard in non-standard ways. So even within the set of Apple's own applications, there are things that are about as different as a Qt or GTK application might be.
- zapzupnz 6y ago
  I agree on those points. Especially on the first: when people put in the hard work, those pay dividends — but often mean those apps lag behind when Apple does breaking changes (which must happen at least every 3 or 4 years). Apple’s Pro-apps are very alien. I expect that’s because they appeal to an audience that spends almost all their time in them, not moving much between a whole bunch of apps. Lastly: Nothing’s ever as non-native as a GTK app. :D Qt and Wx apps do an infinitely better job than any GTK app I’ve seen for macOS, even if I don’t think they come very close aside from tapping into Cocoa’s control drawing.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

> My only response to that is apps that aren’t made to be good macOS citizens wouldn’t even vaguely register on my radar as ‘native’, even if they link against Cocoa. Sure. But two things: 1) I wasn't saying that an app that use nib-less techniques couldn't do the right thing - it could. It could appear totally native if someone just does the work. 2) There are several pro creativity apps (Logic, Mainstage being the biggest) that are actually Apple products but they do not adhere to Apple guidelines. They use non-standard widgets, do not fully follow desktop interactivity guidelines, use the keyboard in non-standard ways. So even within the set of Apple's own applications, there are things that are about as different as a Qt or GTK application might be.

zapzupnz 6y ago
I agree on those points. Especially on the first: when people put in the hard work, those pay dividends — but often mean those apps lag behind when Apple does breaking changes (which must happen at least every 3 or 4 years). Apple’s Pro-apps are very alien. I expect that’s because they appeal to an audience that spends almost all their time in them, not moving much between a whole bunch of apps. Lastly: Nothing’s ever as non-native as a GTK app. :D Qt and Wx apps do an infinitely better job than any GTK app I’ve seen for macOS, even if I don’t think they come very close aside from tapping into Cocoa’s control drawing.