8 ms·

The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. We live in a digital age. If having the wrong opinion means you can get your ban

The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. We live in a digital age. If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government.

djakaitis 6y ago
The mob... keep living the hyperbole. One day you’ll realize you are the baddies.
- NoOneCaresAtAll 6y ago
  "The baddies" What are you, nine years old?
claudiug 6y ago
Wrong opinions? They ban nazi lovers
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  So you mean that 75M people who voted for trump are nazi lovers? I'm not American, but, wow. Be sure to always agree with your new ruling party, and vote as they say, or you might find yourself to be a nazi lover, too.
  - grahamburger 6y ago
    No one has been banned for voting for Trump. Those 75m people are fine, apart from the ones who stormed the capitol.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      Did Trump campaign storm the Capitol? You have evidence?
deleted 6y ago
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ookblah 6y ago
gab got de-platformed and the mob didn't come for anybody else...the world moved on. not everything is a slippery slope. tons of people criticizing it on twitter/fb and they aren't being censored.
- arsome 6y ago
  I'm not so sure - I've watched reddit progress from banning suggestive pictures of children to racism to hating on fat people to political views they don't like and conspiracy theorists... it certainly seems to me like we're sliding down a slippery slope rather quickly. I do wonder if all these bans do is make people angrier.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Yes, first Alex Jones, first Gab, then Trump himself, then Parler, then the Trump’s campaign. Among the other examples of conservatives being censored by bit tech peppered in. Are sure this is a good example to use against it being a slippery slope? FFS, I’m not even a conservative but I have backbone and know I would be furious if this was the other way. Why is ideological consistency so rare?
  - flowside 6y ago
    It's not a slippery slope because they're all saying the same things. The examples you listed are not a spectrum where it's leading to milder and milder forms of extremism.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Parler bans people that post poop pics. It just so happens that mainstream services have a higher standard. But seriously, how is mounting an insurection a slippery slope? At this point I get the feeling that a lot of people posting here are apologists for domestic terrorism and it worries me. There are violent people and they think like Timothy McVeigh. That should worry you. It should worry you even more if they can find like-minded friends like Terry Nichols on cesspools like Parler.
    - 6y ago
chillwaves 6y ago
Should I be worried? Probably not since I am not advocating for the violent overthrow of democracy in America.
- dantheman 6y ago
  wikileaks was mainly attacked through denial of access to the financial system. Would you be ok with Stripe stopping payment to the GOP?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - eganist 6y ago
    > Would you be ok with Stripe stopping payment to the GOP? Has the GOP, specifically the GOP, advocated for the violent overthrow of the United States Government?
    - jasonjayr 6y ago
      They're getting there. > My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub. ~ Grover Norquest
    - danhak 6y ago
      “Let’s have trial by combat!” -Rudy Giuliani, 1/6/2021
      - benmmurphy 6y ago
        This quote is deeply misleading. It's not completely clear but I think Rudy is talking about Biden, Trump and himself staking their reputations on the outcome of a fraud investigation. The transcript and the speech is available here: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/rudy-giuliani-speech-transcript-at-trumps-washington-d-c-rally-wants-trial-by-combat https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/rudy-giuliani-speech-tr... Over the next 10 days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent, and if we’re wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we’re right, a lot of them will go to jail. Let’s have trial by combat. I’m willing to stake my reputation, the President is willing to stake his reputation, on the fact that we’re going to find criminality there. Is Joe Biden willing to stake his reputation that there’s no crime there? No. There is also a pause around the trial by combat comment that is not evident in the transcript so its probably worth listening to the speech to get the full context.
s5300 6y ago
We just had an attempted coup in our democracy dummy. If those fighting against a coup fail, then we're fucked anyways. Can you point me to any part of the history of the United States in which the POTUS hasn't spoked to the VPOTUS in days? Especially days after murders happened in our capital. All of the deplatforming is completely warranted.
vincentmarle 6y ago
> wrong opinion The wrong opinion being the fascist attempted coup of a democratic government
iaHN 6y ago
There is a difference between having unpopular opinions and advocating for violently overthrowing our government.
- koolba 6y ago
  Labeling 75M people as taking part in “violently overthrowing our government” is grossly inaccurate.
bigcorp-slave 6y ago
I don’t know if you were paying attention last week, but the mob literally came for the members of Congress. There are wrong opinions, and then there is “six million Jews were not enough” and “hang the Vice President”, and a violent mob attacking the Capitol. No one is under any obligation to tolerate such actions in a civil society. If I advocate for your murder, am I just expressing an opinion that should be consequence free if someone kills you? Does that change if enough people agree with me that you should be killed?
- Damorian 6y ago
  A teacher in my local school district literally beat down a state congressman for video taping them burning our city down a few months ago, yet every corporate entity and left wing politician I can think of encouraged that violent mob. #KillAllCops, or whatever, isn't a wrong opinion I guess.
  - jsmeaton 6y ago
    This “both sides” nonsense can get in the bin. Point to the leader of a political party that instigated the attack you speak of.
    - Damorian 6y ago
      Much the same way Trump didn't say "form a violent mob and attack Congress" yet he's being held accountable for what was comparatively nothing. "Both sides" doesn't mean all things are equal, just that they're comparable. The BLM riots this Summer were far more deadly and destructive, and the response to them was very different. Violent protests should be denounced by everyone. Period. I cannot figure out when we collectively decided it was fine, so long as it was the "right" side.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        > Much the same way Trump didn't say "form a violent mob and attack Congress" No, but he did whip a crowd into a frenzy and then direct them to March to the capital.
alphabettsy 6y ago
Banks accounts? All internet presence? Neither of those things is happening. They still have websites, not to mention a press secretary with the world’s press at their feet. Minimizing it to just wrong opinions? NAMBLA, look it up, is still around so stating this is about wrong opinions is ignorant. I’m fairly certain that attempting to overthrow the government to get your desired election result is fascism. Saying we will have a trial by combat just before telling protestors to head to the Capitol sounds a lot like a call for violence. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-rally-speech/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-rally-speech/
- abernard1 6y ago
  > I’m fairly certain that attempting to overthrow the government to get your desired election result is fascism. I can't believe I'm actually going to go to this topic, but your argument has been made before with the Reichstag Fire [1]. Using threats of violence as a pretext for assuming more government control is a tactic as old as governments. > The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext to claim that communists were plotting against the German government, which made the fire pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
  - alphabettsy 6y ago
    I’m well aware. Can you point to the government control please. Private companies using their liberty to deny service to the leader of the United States government seems like freedom to me.
    - abernard1 6y ago
      Fine, this particular action is not government control. But the argument that taking away power from people because they're "fascists" isn't like fascism is not a strong one. These people are supposedly an existential threat to the fabric of America, and there absolutely is not a single group that hasn't simultaneously deplatformed them. It suggests a question around who really holds the power here.
eganist 6y ago
> The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. > We live in a digital age. If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government. Just to rebaseline, in this case a mob infiltrated the dais in the Capitol, and this mob's opinions included speech not just disagreeable to public corporations but unprotected by the United States government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions#Fighting_words https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
deleted 6y ago
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_pius 6y ago
The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. The facile sophistry of comments like yours is becoming obnoxious. An actual fascist mob already came for us last week and we were not protected, get it? There can be interesting intellectual arguments about whether this was the right move but breathlessly calling ToS enforcement by private companies a “mob” while ignoring an actual mob with lead pipes, guns, and bombs ain’t it.
- ingsoc79 6y ago
  Perhaps you missed the repeated actual attempts by leftist mobs to burn down the Federal Courthouse in Portland and the East Precinct in Seattle this summer?
- yetanother5 6y ago
  Labelling average Americans as fascists is the reason why Trump got 75 million votes.
betterunix2 6y ago
Get back to me when they do it to someone who did not just tell a crowd of terrorists to go over to the Capitol and "save" the country from its own democratic process.
danhak 6y ago
“First they came for the violent insurrectionists, and I did not speak out”
- Rapzid 6y ago
  "Yes, that's them over there officer"
deleted 6y ago
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moomin 6y ago
You should probably look up what the hallmarks of fascism are sometime. It might surprise you.
- xtracto 6y ago
  Replying to Chrissnell comment which seems to be flagged. I agree with your sentiment, and I was there on slashdot in those times. Even though I have nothing for or against the political events happening in the USA. I fear that all these companies are using what happened as a pretext to stop giving service to people with different ideas. Twitter censoring trump is OK. Reddit censoring some channels is OK. But blocking a chat app from apple/google store? AWS? Stripe? This is exactly what a lot of us fought for ed2k, BitTorrent DeCSS and other technologies: the technology is not bad. And even if we dont like the content, we should allow people with different ideas to talk a out it. Sure, some of the people at the capitol committed a crime. But it's the same as if companies have banned cryptography because of DeCSS.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Does anyone know why AWS hasn't kicked off Parler yet? Is this a hard decision for Bezos?
    - grzm 6y ago
      AWS laid out the timeline in their letter to Parler: > "Because Parler cannot comply with our terms of service and poses a very real risk to public safety, we plan to suspend Parler’s account effective Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST." https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-parler-aws https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-p... According to my watch, it's a few minutes past 17:30 PST.
      - ketamine__ 6y ago
        Any idea who is hosting them now?
ashtonkem 6y ago
Spare us your outrage. A literal mob just overran the Capitol. Attempting to talk about “the mob” in opposition to the actual mobs that are continuing to take over Capitol buildings is frankly so tone deaf it’s almost insulting to our intelligence.
- logicslave 6y ago
  Keep supporting these censorship policies and see what happens. "Give me liberty or give me death"
- incrudible 6y ago
  Spare us your hypocrisy. A literal mob took over parts of Seattle and several government buildings. Hundreds of buildings have been burned or looted in the past year during protests. People were killed in the process. Did anybody think to deplatform the Biden campaign? No, we did not - and rightly so. We accepted their condemnation of violence just as we should accept that of Trump and his campaign.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    Biden decried the violence in Seattle. Trump encouraged this riot, and may have even purposefully slowed down the authorization to send in the National Guard. You don’t get to call me a hypocrite based on stuff you’ve made up.
    - incrudible 6y ago
      As a matter of fact, Trump called the rioters back and later condemned them strongly.
    - yetanother5 6y ago
      Trump didn’t encourage any rioting. Stop making stuff up. He Tweeted everyone saying to be peaceful and go home. Twitter censored those Tweets. Presumably to fit the narrative you have swallowed.
    - incrudible 6y ago
chrissnell 6y ago
There was a time when the tech community fought ferociously against corporations and government attempts to censor and silence ideas. In its early years, Slashdot was ardently libertarian, as were most of the engineers I worked with. Can you imagine 1997 Slashdot’s reaction to something like Apple removing Parler from the App Store? There would be protests, DDoSes, editorials from thought leaders, and more. I feel very out of place with many of the younger folks working in tech today. The majority of them seem to support (or even demand) de-platforming of people and ideas that they disagree with. This is not a good trend. As you said, the mob will eventually come for you, too.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  The models that worked in the '80s and '90s proved ineffective as the number of people online continued towards 100%. The early denizens of the 'net were very homogeneous relative to today.
- bufferout 6y ago
  "It's hard to reason with someone waving a confederate flag in your face"
xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago
Other people have pointed out that Trump and much of the GOP just launched a coup, so I'll leave that aside. Of course it's different from living under a fascist government. A totalitarian government would send you to a prison camp or kill you for saying the wrong thing. The Stasi would systematically and invisibly ruin all your relationships and your career. People who are banned from Twitter can go to another website or start their own. If they're banned from Stripe, they can use Visa or pay in cash. If they are banned from social media, they can hop on any of the numerous right-wing TV stations or write for any of the numerous right-wing newspapers. Even if this were the government, it would be an exaggeration to say that these actions are totalitarian. There are countries today where you could get locked up for having the wrong opinion that are miles from being fascist. Germany springs to mind, since many people have been arrested for Holocaust denial. Many European countries tick along just fine despite the fact that they would instantly throw the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church in prison. The American dedication to freedom of speech is admirable. However, it is also an aberration. Since the American approach to freedom of speech is not the norm, we should treat it as rare and precious but also recognize that things would be mostly fine with some restrictions. Cool it with the hyperbole.
- rcurry 6y ago
  Well said.
- phatfish 6y ago
  The American dedication to free speech only functions when people -- especially those in power -- are acting in good faith. Trump took the pseudonymous troll culture of the internet to the highest office of government, and this is the result. Trolls and Trump play by different rules, truth and facts are inconsequential -- all that matters is the reaction of their victims. I have sympathy with Trump supporters that are not in on the "joke". It's not stupid to believe the president of the United States will be honest with them (at least on issues of national importance like "massive" election fraud), but he won't. If you were attracted by his other views (however distasteful), it is a bitter pill to swallow to admit he is a lier. Americans are lucky their constitution was strong enough to ensure (at least) Trumps tactics to overturn a democratic vote failed.
mattsears 6y ago
There's a big difference in wrong opinion and inciting violence. This isn't the government doing this. This is private companies taking action against the spread hate and lies. These are companies I want to do business with.
- intricatedetail 6y ago
  Where do you draw a line? These days in a snowflake culture any opinion can cause outrage and violence. It's just a matter of interpretation and who reads the message. Should companies be allowed to restrict your freedom to information? It's quite patronising.
  - sunpar 6y ago
    They have clear rules against inciting violence that were clearly violated. That's a good line to draw and enforce.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I mean, the Capitol attack on Wednesday is where I draw the line, and Stripe seems to have drawn it the same way.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > Where do you draw a line? Somewhere on the right side of "storming Congress with a mob".
    - yetanother5 6y ago
      But looting is ok? As is pulling down historical statues and monuments? Who gets to decide to the line? Do we get to vote for them?
- yetanother5 6y ago
  Yet antifa are allowed on Twitter who regularly advocate for violence against Trump supporters. It’s politically motivated and one sided censorship
afuchs 6y ago
This sounds like a slippery slope argument[1], which can be genuine but also controversial when generalized. Can we talk about individual instance, like those specific to the current situation with Trump or other situations, like "Operation Choke Point," separately or should something like this be only considered with generic rules that do not consider the nuisance and details of any specific circumstance? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
AYBABTME 6y ago
There's a gradation of things, it's not black or white. The gray zone in the middle is where conditions for society to prosper are.
logicslave 6y ago
The mob is coming. People are completely underestimating what can happen. History is riddled with stories that start just like this.
- greatgirl 6y ago
  Read what you just wrote 3 or 4 times over. Who is the mob? Stripe? A billion dollar company who has one small board of directors who made this decision? What am I underestimating? The power of a company to deprive people of their income? Oh, you mean every single company on earth? History is riddled with stories that start just like this? Yes, history has one example of a story that starts with a fascist mob invading the government, and then the liberal mob banned them and then... wait a second that's not how the story went.
userbinator 6y ago
Also, I'm not advocating for any violence, but keep in mind that the US was certainly not created peacefully either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
- betterunix2 6y ago
  ...and after winning they promptly put down another attempted revolution, then passed laws against further violent revolution and working with foreign governments against the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
- danijelb 6y ago
  That is true but from the perspective of the British it was illegal. I'm not sure that British companies would've provided services to revolutionaries while they literally try to overthrow the constitutional order of their country. Sure, they succeeded, got their independence, but when someone decides to literally fight against the country from the inside they shouldn't expect any company to be friendly to them or to offer them any services. As a matter of fact not even the government will be friendly, because they will do everything in their power to maintain order from their legal and constitutional perspective. What happened on the Capitol had elements that lead to a conclusion that the goal was to stop legal procedures in the country, perhaps even taking elected representatives as hostages. This is different from any other type of "ordinary" riot. Luckily the people there didn't seem to be particularly skillful so they didn't manage to achieve anything. But they shouldn't expect that everyone will forget what they tried just because it failed. There needs to be a serious investigation first to determine how was it organized and what were the goals. Until this is known for sure, everyone should be really careful and that includes the right of companies to ensure their tools are not used for a potential violent government overthrow. What would happen to the revolutionaries if the American Revolution had failed? I'm pretty sure that the British wouldn't just forget it and pretend it didn't happen, even if they managed to stop it quickly before it got serious.
greatgirl 6y ago
I have seen this exact phrase like 500 times in the past week. Do you guys all read the same books or something? It's such a huge exaggeration to say that stripe's decision was motivated by a 'mob'... Wait, it was motivated by a mob, the mob of right wingers. And they DID come for me. That's why we ban them from our websites. It's just pure fear mongering and outrage news to say that liberals are mobbing together to force companies (as if its not ultimately the choice of the company) to ban people, and that somehow this will lead to them turning on each other... and then i'll be sorry i banned Trump? I don't get it.
flowside 6y ago
You are free to create your own far-right payment bank and payment system. The fact that sites like 4chan and Stormfront continue to exist is a sign that no one's speech has been stifled, only inconvenienced.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  >You are free to create your own far-right payment bank and payment system. Or just write a check to the Trump Campaign.
gameswithgo 6y ago
please quit equating terrorism with “differing opinion” trump caused his followers to believe the election was a lie, and when they came to protest he egged them on to the capital building where they beat a police officer to death with an american flag while singing the anthem. they beat him to death with an american flag and trump called them patriots after. beat him to death sir, these patriots, our president said. wearing nazi tshirts, sir. differing opinions? maybe you can find a better way to communicate your idea here
- JarlUlvi 6y ago
  Please provide the well sourced news article, or video with the beating of the police officer to death with a flag. I'm asking because it was claimed it was a fire extinguisher, but other sources said it was a heart attack or stroke that happened many hours after the fact, and the cop had already had well-known health issues prior.
Rapzid 6y ago
> it's not any different than living under a fascist government We should be celebrating Stripe's ability to do this. Do you think a Chinese company could "deplatform" Winnie The Pooh? It's fantastic that we can still disassociate ourselves and our businesses from someone like Trump!
christiansakai 6y ago
What mob? The one what wants to hang Mike Pence? I'm not a Trump supporter but as a Christian I admire Mike Pence as a person, even before he supported Trump.
sdwa 6y ago
If you can't ban a fascist for instigating violence and a coup attempt then your ToS are worthless and all moderation on every website must be made illegal.
chopin24 6y ago
>If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government. Calling for the overthrow of the government through violent insurrection isn't an opinion.
deleted 6y ago
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hsgssh72525 6y ago
I see where you are coming from, but I do not agree that they are being punished just for “having the wrong opinion”. The Trump campaign just attempted a coup. As in they attempted to seize control of the government by stopping the lawful transition of power. That it failed does not make it any less serious. Should we let them continue to try until the are successful? Let’s not repeat the mistakes of 1920s Germany.[0] I do not think it is hyperbole to say that Trump and his ilk are fascists, not unlike the Nazis.[1] They are the mob that is coming for you.[2] Do not make the mistake of failing to believe these people when they tell you who they are and what they are about. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/BxMXjGz7Zjsa1G6Q8 https://images.app.goo.gl/BxMXjGz7Zjsa1G6Q8 [2] https://twitter.com/59dallas/status/1346963199778828290?s=21 https://twitter.com/59dallas/status/1346963199778828290?s=21
renewiltord 6y ago
The funny thing about the mob is that it does not remember whether you cheered it on or not. And the funny thing when there are two mobs fighting each other is that neither will exercise restraint if the other backs down. So the smart thing to do is to be either so powerful the mob can't touch you or to be so invisible the mobs can't see you. There is always the Kolmogorov option.
dang 6y ago
Please make your points more substantively than this. Your comment is the fulcrum tipping this thread into flamewar, and that's because the ratio of grandiosity-plus-inflammation to information in it is super high (high is bad). (I'd make the same reply if you were arguing this way for the opposite position, in case anyone is still worried about that.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sillypecan 6y ago
Correct. While silencing him may be satisfying, this road will lead us down a dark path. It is better to suffer a little evil than to loose everything good.

djakaitis 6y ago

The mob... keep living the hyperbole. One day you’ll realize you are the baddies.

NoOneCaresAtAll 6y ago
"The baddies" What are you, nine years old?

claudiug 6y ago

Wrong opinions? They ban nazi lovers

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
So you mean that 75M people who voted for trump are nazi lovers? I'm not American, but, wow. Be sure to always agree with your new ruling party, and vote as they say, or you might find yourself to be a nazi lover, too.
- grahamburger 6y ago
  No one has been banned for voting for Trump. Those 75m people are fine, apart from the ones who stormed the capitol.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    Did Trump campaign storm the Capitol? You have evidence?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ookblah 6y ago

gab got de-platformed and the mob didn't come for anybody else...the world moved on. not everything is a slippery slope. tons of people criticizing it on twitter/fb and they aren't being censored.

arsome 6y ago
I'm not so sure - I've watched reddit progress from banning suggestive pictures of children to racism to hating on fat people to political views they don't like and conspiracy theorists... it certainly seems to me like we're sliding down a slippery slope rather quickly. I do wonder if all these bans do is make people angrier.
SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
Yes, first Alex Jones, first Gab, then Trump himself, then Parler, then the Trump’s campaign. Among the other examples of conservatives being censored by bit tech peppered in. Are sure this is a good example to use against it being a slippery slope? FFS, I’m not even a conservative but I have backbone and know I would be furious if this was the other way. Why is ideological consistency so rare?
- flowside 6y ago
  It's not a slippery slope because they're all saying the same things. The examples you listed are not a spectrum where it's leading to milder and milder forms of extremism.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Parler bans people that post poop pics. It just so happens that mainstream services have a higher standard. But seriously, how is mounting an insurection a slippery slope? At this point I get the feeling that a lot of people posting here are apologists for domestic terrorism and it worries me. There are violent people and they think like Timothy McVeigh. That should worry you. It should worry you even more if they can find like-minded friends like Terry Nichols on cesspools like Parler.
  - 6y ago

chillwaves 6y ago

Should I be worried? Probably not since I am not advocating for the violent overthrow of democracy in America.

dantheman 6y ago
wikileaks was mainly attacked through denial of access to the financial system. Would you be ok with Stripe stopping payment to the GOP?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- eganist 6y ago
  > Would you be ok with Stripe stopping payment to the GOP? Has the GOP, specifically the GOP, advocated for the violent overthrow of the United States Government?
  - jasonjayr 6y ago
    They're getting there. > My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub. ~ Grover Norquest
  - danhak 6y ago
    “Let’s have trial by combat!” -Rudy Giuliani, 1/6/2021
    - benmmurphy 6y ago
      This quote is deeply misleading. It's not completely clear but I think Rudy is talking about Biden, Trump and himself staking their reputations on the outcome of a fraud investigation. The transcript and the speech is available here: https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/rudy-giuliani-speech-transcript-at-trumps-washington-d-c-rally-wants-trial-by-combat https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/rudy-giuliani-speech-tr... Over the next 10 days, we get to see the machines that are crooked, the ballots that are fraudulent, and if we’re wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we’re right, a lot of them will go to jail. Let’s have trial by combat. I’m willing to stake my reputation, the President is willing to stake his reputation, on the fact that we’re going to find criminality there. Is Joe Biden willing to stake his reputation that there’s no crime there? No. There is also a pause around the trial by combat comment that is not evident in the transcript so its probably worth listening to the speech to get the full context.

s5300 6y ago

We just had an attempted coup in our democracy dummy. If those fighting against a coup fail, then we're fucked anyways. Can you point me to any part of the history of the United States in which the POTUS hasn't spoked to the VPOTUS in days? Especially days after murders happened in our capital. All of the deplatforming is completely warranted.

vincentmarle 6y ago

> wrong opinion The wrong opinion being the fascist attempted coup of a democratic government

iaHN 6y ago

There is a difference between having unpopular opinions and advocating for violently overthrowing our government.

koolba 6y ago
Labeling 75M people as taking part in “violently overthrowing our government” is grossly inaccurate.

bigcorp-slave 6y ago

I don’t know if you were paying attention last week, but the mob literally came for the members of Congress. There are wrong opinions, and then there is “six million Jews were not enough” and “hang the Vice President”, and a violent mob attacking the Capitol. No one is under any obligation to tolerate such actions in a civil society. If I advocate for your murder, am I just expressing an opinion that should be consequence free if someone kills you? Does that change if enough people agree with me that you should be killed?

Damorian 6y ago
A teacher in my local school district literally beat down a state congressman for video taping them burning our city down a few months ago, yet every corporate entity and left wing politician I can think of encouraged that violent mob. #KillAllCops, or whatever, isn't a wrong opinion I guess.
- jsmeaton 6y ago
  This “both sides” nonsense can get in the bin. Point to the leader of a political party that instigated the attack you speak of.
  - Damorian 6y ago
    Much the same way Trump didn't say "form a violent mob and attack Congress" yet he's being held accountable for what was comparatively nothing. "Both sides" doesn't mean all things are equal, just that they're comparable. The BLM riots this Summer were far more deadly and destructive, and the response to them was very different. Violent protests should be denounced by everyone. Period. I cannot figure out when we collectively decided it was fine, so long as it was the "right" side.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      > Much the same way Trump didn't say "form a violent mob and attack Congress" No, but he did whip a crowd into a frenzy and then direct them to March to the capital.

alphabettsy 6y ago

Banks accounts? All internet presence? Neither of those things is happening. They still have websites, not to mention a press secretary with the world’s press at their feet. Minimizing it to just wrong opinions? NAMBLA, look it up, is still around so stating this is about wrong opinions is ignorant. I’m fairly certain that attempting to overthrow the government to get your desired election result is fascism. Saying we will have a trial by combat just before telling protestors to head to the Capitol sounds a lot like a call for violence. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-rally-speech/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-rally-speech/

abernard1 6y ago
> I’m fairly certain that attempting to overthrow the government to get your desired election result is fascism. I can't believe I'm actually going to go to this topic, but your argument has been made before with the Reichstag Fire [1]. Using threats of violence as a pretext for assuming more government control is a tactic as old as governments. > The Nazi Party used the fire as a pretext to claim that communists were plotting against the German government, which made the fire pivotal in the establishment of Nazi Germany. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
- alphabettsy 6y ago
  I’m well aware. Can you point to the government control please. Private companies using their liberty to deny service to the leader of the United States government seems like freedom to me.
  - abernard1 6y ago
    Fine, this particular action is not government control. But the argument that taking away power from people because they're "fascists" isn't like fascism is not a strong one. These people are supposedly an existential threat to the fabric of America, and there absolutely is not a single group that hasn't simultaneously deplatformed them. It suggests a question around who really holds the power here.

eganist 6y ago

> The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. > We live in a digital age. If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government. Just to rebaseline, in this case a mob infiltrated the dais in the Capitol, and this mob's opinions included speech not just disagreeable to public corporations but unprotected by the United States government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions#Fighting_words https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

deleted 6y ago

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_pius 6y ago

The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. The facile sophistry of comments like yours is becoming obnoxious. An actual fascist mob already came for us last week and we were not protected, get it? There can be interesting intellectual arguments about whether this was the right move but breathlessly calling ToS enforcement by private companies a “mob” while ignoring an actual mob with lead pipes, guns, and bombs ain’t it.

ingsoc79 6y ago
Perhaps you missed the repeated actual attempts by leftist mobs to burn down the Federal Courthouse in Portland and the East Precinct in Seattle this summer?
yetanother5 6y ago
Labelling average Americans as fascists is the reason why Trump got 75 million votes.

betterunix2 6y ago

Get back to me when they do it to someone who did not just tell a crowd of terrorists to go over to the Capitol and "save" the country from its own democratic process.

danhak 6y ago

“First they came for the violent insurrectionists, and I did not speak out”

Rapzid 6y ago
"Yes, that's them over there officer"

deleted 6y ago

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moomin 6y ago

You should probably look up what the hallmarks of fascism are sometime. It might surprise you.

xtracto 6y ago
Replying to Chrissnell comment which seems to be flagged. I agree with your sentiment, and I was there on slashdot in those times. Even though I have nothing for or against the political events happening in the USA. I fear that all these companies are using what happened as a pretext to stop giving service to people with different ideas. Twitter censoring trump is OK. Reddit censoring some channels is OK. But blocking a chat app from apple/google store? AWS? Stripe? This is exactly what a lot of us fought for ed2k, BitTorrent DeCSS and other technologies: the technology is not bad. And even if we dont like the content, we should allow people with different ideas to talk a out it. Sure, some of the people at the capitol committed a crime. But it's the same as if companies have banned cryptography because of DeCSS.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Does anyone know why AWS hasn't kicked off Parler yet? Is this a hard decision for Bezos?
  - grzm 6y ago
    AWS laid out the timeline in their letter to Parler: > "Because Parler cannot comply with our terms of service and poses a very real risk to public safety, we plan to suspend Parler’s account effective Sunday, January 10th, at 11:59PM PST." https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-parler-aws https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/amazon-p... According to my watch, it's a few minutes past 17:30 PST.
    - ketamine__ 6y ago
      Any idea who is hosting them now?

ashtonkem 6y ago

Spare us your outrage. A literal mob just overran the Capitol. Attempting to talk about “the mob” in opposition to the actual mobs that are continuing to take over Capitol buildings is frankly so tone deaf it’s almost insulting to our intelligence.

logicslave 6y ago
Keep supporting these censorship policies and see what happens. "Give me liberty or give me death"
incrudible 6y ago
Spare us your hypocrisy. A literal mob took over parts of Seattle and several government buildings. Hundreds of buildings have been burned or looted in the past year during protests. People were killed in the process. Did anybody think to deplatform the Biden campaign? No, we did not - and rightly so. We accepted their condemnation of violence just as we should accept that of Trump and his campaign.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Biden decried the violence in Seattle. Trump encouraged this riot, and may have even purposefully slowed down the authorization to send in the National Guard. You don’t get to call me a hypocrite based on stuff you’ve made up.
  - incrudible 6y ago
    As a matter of fact, Trump called the rioters back and later condemned them strongly.
  - yetanother5 6y ago
    Trump didn’t encourage any rioting. Stop making stuff up. He Tweeted everyone saying to be peaceful and go home. Twitter censored those Tweets. Presumably to fit the narrative you have swallowed.
  - incrudible 6y ago

chrissnell 6y ago

There was a time when the tech community fought ferociously against corporations and government attempts to censor and silence ideas. In its early years, Slashdot was ardently libertarian, as were most of the engineers I worked with. Can you imagine 1997 Slashdot’s reaction to something like Apple removing Parler from the App Store? There would be protests, DDoSes, editorials from thought leaders, and more. I feel very out of place with many of the younger folks working in tech today. The majority of them seem to support (or even demand) de-platforming of people and ideas that they disagree with. This is not a good trend. As you said, the mob will eventually come for you, too.

shadowgovt 6y ago
The models that worked in the '80s and '90s proved ineffective as the number of people online continued towards 100%. The early denizens of the 'net were very homogeneous relative to today.
bufferout 6y ago
"It's hard to reason with someone waving a confederate flag in your face"

xirbeosbwo1234 6y ago

Other people have pointed out that Trump and much of the GOP just launched a coup, so I'll leave that aside. Of course it's different from living under a fascist government. A totalitarian government would send you to a prison camp or kill you for saying the wrong thing. The Stasi would systematically and invisibly ruin all your relationships and your career. People who are banned from Twitter can go to another website or start their own. If they're banned from Stripe, they can use Visa or pay in cash. If they are banned from social media, they can hop on any of the numerous right-wing TV stations or write for any of the numerous right-wing newspapers. Even if this were the government, it would be an exaggeration to say that these actions are totalitarian. There are countries today where you could get locked up for having the wrong opinion that are miles from being fascist. Germany springs to mind, since many people have been arrested for Holocaust denial. Many European countries tick along just fine despite the fact that they would instantly throw the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church in prison. The American dedication to freedom of speech is admirable. However, it is also an aberration. Since the American approach to freedom of speech is not the norm, we should treat it as rare and precious but also recognize that things would be mostly fine with some restrictions. Cool it with the hyperbole.

rcurry 6y ago
Well said.
phatfish 6y ago
The American dedication to free speech only functions when people -- especially those in power -- are acting in good faith. Trump took the pseudonymous troll culture of the internet to the highest office of government, and this is the result. Trolls and Trump play by different rules, truth and facts are inconsequential -- all that matters is the reaction of their victims. I have sympathy with Trump supporters that are not in on the "joke". It's not stupid to believe the president of the United States will be honest with them (at least on issues of national importance like "massive" election fraud), but he won't. If you were attracted by his other views (however distasteful), it is a bitter pill to swallow to admit he is a lier. Americans are lucky their constitution was strong enough to ensure (at least) Trumps tactics to overturn a democratic vote failed.

mattsears 6y ago

There's a big difference in wrong opinion and inciting violence. This isn't the government doing this. This is private companies taking action against the spread hate and lies. These are companies I want to do business with.

intricatedetail 6y ago
Where do you draw a line? These days in a snowflake culture any opinion can cause outrage and violence. It's just a matter of interpretation and who reads the message. Should companies be allowed to restrict your freedom to information? It's quite patronising.
- sunpar 6y ago
  They have clear rules against inciting violence that were clearly violated. That's a good line to draw and enforce.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I mean, the Capitol attack on Wednesday is where I draw the line, and Stripe seems to have drawn it the same way.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > Where do you draw a line? Somewhere on the right side of "storming Congress with a mob".
  - yetanother5 6y ago
    But looting is ok? As is pulling down historical statues and monuments? Who gets to decide to the line? Do we get to vote for them?
yetanother5 6y ago
Yet antifa are allowed on Twitter who regularly advocate for violence against Trump supporters. It’s politically motivated and one sided censorship

afuchs 6y ago

This sounds like a slippery slope argument[1], which can be genuine but also controversial when generalized. Can we talk about individual instance, like those specific to the current situation with Trump or other situations, like "Operation Choke Point," separately or should something like this be only considered with generic rules that do not consider the nuisance and details of any specific circumstance? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

AYBABTME 6y ago

There's a gradation of things, it's not black or white. The gray zone in the middle is where conditions for society to prosper are.

logicslave 6y ago

The mob is coming. People are completely underestimating what can happen. History is riddled with stories that start just like this.

greatgirl 6y ago
Read what you just wrote 3 or 4 times over. Who is the mob? Stripe? A billion dollar company who has one small board of directors who made this decision? What am I underestimating? The power of a company to deprive people of their income? Oh, you mean every single company on earth? History is riddled with stories that start just like this? Yes, history has one example of a story that starts with a fascist mob invading the government, and then the liberal mob banned them and then... wait a second that's not how the story went.

userbinator 6y ago

Also, I'm not advocating for any violence, but keep in mind that the US was certainly not created peacefully either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

betterunix2 6y ago
...and after winning they promptly put down another attempted revolution, then passed laws against further violent revolution and working with foreign governments against the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_sedition_act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act
danijelb 6y ago
That is true but from the perspective of the British it was illegal. I'm not sure that British companies would've provided services to revolutionaries while they literally try to overthrow the constitutional order of their country. Sure, they succeeded, got their independence, but when someone decides to literally fight against the country from the inside they shouldn't expect any company to be friendly to them or to offer them any services. As a matter of fact not even the government will be friendly, because they will do everything in their power to maintain order from their legal and constitutional perspective. What happened on the Capitol had elements that lead to a conclusion that the goal was to stop legal procedures in the country, perhaps even taking elected representatives as hostages. This is different from any other type of "ordinary" riot. Luckily the people there didn't seem to be particularly skillful so they didn't manage to achieve anything. But they shouldn't expect that everyone will forget what they tried just because it failed. There needs to be a serious investigation first to determine how was it organized and what were the goals. Until this is known for sure, everyone should be really careful and that includes the right of companies to ensure their tools are not used for a potential violent government overthrow. What would happen to the revolutionaries if the American Revolution had failed? I'm pretty sure that the British wouldn't just forget it and pretend it didn't happen, even if they managed to stop it quickly before it got serious.

greatgirl 6y ago

I have seen this exact phrase like 500 times in the past week. Do you guys all read the same books or something? It's such a huge exaggeration to say that stripe's decision was motivated by a 'mob'... Wait, it was motivated by a mob, the mob of right wingers. And they DID come for me. That's why we ban them from our websites. It's just pure fear mongering and outrage news to say that liberals are mobbing together to force companies (as if its not ultimately the choice of the company) to ban people, and that somehow this will lead to them turning on each other... and then i'll be sorry i banned Trump? I don't get it.

flowside 6y ago

You are free to create your own far-right payment bank and payment system. The fact that sites like 4chan and Stormfront continue to exist is a sign that no one's speech has been stifled, only inconvenienced.

nobody9999 6y ago
>You are free to create your own far-right payment bank and payment system. Or just write a check to the Trump Campaign.

gameswithgo 6y ago

please quit equating terrorism with “differing opinion” trump caused his followers to believe the election was a lie, and when they came to protest he egged them on to the capital building where they beat a police officer to death with an american flag while singing the anthem. they beat him to death with an american flag and trump called them patriots after. beat him to death sir, these patriots, our president said. wearing nazi tshirts, sir. differing opinions? maybe you can find a better way to communicate your idea here

JarlUlvi 6y ago
Please provide the well sourced news article, or video with the beating of the police officer to death with a flag. I'm asking because it was claimed it was a fire extinguisher, but other sources said it was a heart attack or stroke that happened many hours after the fact, and the cop had already had well-known health issues prior.

Rapzid 6y ago

> it's not any different than living under a fascist government We should be celebrating Stripe's ability to do this. Do you think a Chinese company could "deplatform" Winnie The Pooh? It's fantastic that we can still disassociate ourselves and our businesses from someone like Trump!

christiansakai 6y ago

What mob? The one what wants to hang Mike Pence? I'm not a Trump supporter but as a Christian I admire Mike Pence as a person, even before he supported Trump.

sdwa 6y ago

If you can't ban a fascist for instigating violence and a coup attempt then your ToS are worthless and all moderation on every website must be made illegal.

chopin24 6y ago

>If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government. Calling for the overthrow of the government through violent insurrection isn't an opinion.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hsgssh72525 6y ago

I see where you are coming from, but I do not agree that they are being punished just for “having the wrong opinion”. The Trump campaign just attempted a coup. As in they attempted to seize control of the government by stopping the lawful transition of power. That it failed does not make it any less serious. Should we let them continue to try until the are successful? Let’s not repeat the mistakes of 1920s Germany.[0] I do not think it is hyperbole to say that Trump and his ilk are fascists, not unlike the Nazis.[1] They are the mob that is coming for you.[2] Do not make the mistake of failing to believe these people when they tell you who they are and what they are about. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch [1] https://images.app.goo.gl/BxMXjGz7Zjsa1G6Q8 https://images.app.goo.gl/BxMXjGz7Zjsa1G6Q8 [2] https://twitter.com/59dallas/status/1346963199778828290?s=21 https://twitter.com/59dallas/status/1346963199778828290?s=21

renewiltord 6y ago

The funny thing about the mob is that it does not remember whether you cheered it on or not. And the funny thing when there are two mobs fighting each other is that neither will exercise restraint if the other backs down. So the smart thing to do is to be either so powerful the mob can't touch you or to be so invisible the mobs can't see you. There is always the Kolmogorov option.

dang 6y ago

Please make your points more substantively than this. Your comment is the fulcrum tipping this thread into flamewar, and that's because the ratio of grandiosity-plus-inflammation to information in it is super high (high is bad). (I'd make the same reply if you were arguing this way for the opposite position, in case anyone is still worried about that.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sillypecan 6y ago

Correct. While silencing him may be satisfying, this road will lead us down a dark path. It is better to suffer a little evil than to loose everything good.