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"Good food is expensive" is a baseless claim I hear all the time. People could eat relatively healthy if they wanted to, but they don't. There are a bunch of re

"Good food is expensive" is a baseless claim I hear all the time. People could eat relatively healthy if they wanted to, but they don't. There are a bunch of reasons, but if I was forced to pick one it's that these big companies engineer their processed food to be addictive. It's insidious.

Jtsummers 6y ago
I mostly agree with what you say, but: > People could eat relatively healthy if they wanted to, but they don't. [emphasis added] It's not an issue of want. I've lived in a near food desert. I was in a relatively well-off part of a very poor part of town (many people lived without cars, high unemployment, etc.). The local grocer had god awful meat and produce (produce would spoil in 1-2 days of purchase, meat wasn't much better). To get good food I'd drive sometimes 10+ miles away and get, for the same list price, much better quality meat and vegetables. I wasn't breaking the bank, but I had access to a vehicle and the time to take to go make the purchase (the local grocer was only good, for me, for staples like dried beans, rice, and flour). The others living nearby without a car, or without the time/money to dedicate to that extra trip for groceries had to subsist on what was available locally, which meant often some very poor quality foods (with regard to health outcomes at least). Otherwise, I agree that good food is not expensive. I saved money and got healthier by spending less on food (chicken breast and ground beef at $2-3/pound, catch on sale days and freeze; rice and beans cost maybe $10/month as a single adult; a few key vegetables and fruits cost $5-10/week).
- bedhead 6y ago
  I sympathize, seriously. "Food deserts" are real, but they're not a conspiracy...it's just capitalism. They're not economically viable in areas where too many people reject "good food" in favor of Big Macs. Food deserts are a symptom of my point: people are choosing (or are addicted to) processed food.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    The causation you're indicating is not clear at all to me. You seem to be saying, "Poor people prefer Big Macs therefore that's what they get, and no grocery stores." But an equally valid observation is that the lack of grocery stores and the presence of fast food and gas stations/corner stores produce an apparent preference without indicating a real preference.
    - username90 6y ago
      Food deserts doesn't exist in most countries though, it is an American thing. Nowhere else is it hard to go find basic groceries you can use to cook anywhere.
      - Jtsummers 6y ago
        I don't get your point with this comment. bedhead suggested that Big Mac consumption by poor people leads directly to their food desert problem, my comment is that that causal order is not clear. An apparent preference can be created by lack of choice, not by actual choice. Do people in food deserts prefer Slim Jims from the corner store and Big Macs or does it seem that way because of a lack of choice?
- username90 6y ago
  If there was demand for good food people would open shops selling it. It happens all the time in Europe, you see poor people open cheap shops selling basic food in poor areas.
  - Jtsummers 6y ago
    > If there was demand for good food people would open shops selling it. Markets aren't perfect, contrary to popular belief on HN and other discussion boards. And even if something eventually shows up, it's not going to show up overnight. It still takes capital to pull off, which the locals almost universally lacked (racism is a hell of a thing in the US South) and outsiders have to decide it's worth the gamble for very little gain. How many people want to open a grocery store where 90% of your customers are on food stamps, and if they open it how well stocked will it be? (Based on the one grocery store we had, very poorly.)
    - username90 6y ago
      the market does its job here in Europe, why not USA? Maybe you should fix your market then.
  - orwin 6y ago
    The key difference is population density. There is a demand, but its too low to be sustainable. And by the way, you have food deserts in europe (Alps, Balkans). I've never been to Estern Europe but a friend of mine is selling mercs (security detail to be exact) there and i souldn't be surprise if some food desert existed between Crimea and Oural from what i'm told. Small productor market and product are politically tainted too, so a small percentage of the population won't ever come in. And health shouldn't be about politics.

Jtsummers 6y ago

I mostly agree with what you say, but: > People could eat relatively healthy if they wanted to, but they don't. [emphasis added] It's not an issue of want. I've lived in a near food desert. I was in a relatively well-off part of a very poor part of town (many people lived without cars, high unemployment, etc.). The local grocer had god awful meat and produce (produce would spoil in 1-2 days of purchase, meat wasn't much better). To get good food I'd drive sometimes 10+ miles away and get, for the same list price, much better quality meat and vegetables. I wasn't breaking the bank, but I had access to a vehicle and the time to take to go make the purchase (the local grocer was only good, for me, for staples like dried beans, rice, and flour). The others living nearby without a car, or without the time/money to dedicate to that extra trip for groceries had to subsist on what was available locally, which meant often some very poor quality foods (with regard to health outcomes at least). Otherwise, I agree that good food is not expensive. I saved money and got healthier by spending less on food (chicken breast and ground beef at $2-3/pound, catch on sale days and freeze; rice and beans cost maybe $10/month as a single adult; a few key vegetables and fruits cost $5-10/week).

bedhead 6y ago
I sympathize, seriously. "Food deserts" are real, but they're not a conspiracy...it's just capitalism. They're not economically viable in areas where too many people reject "good food" in favor of Big Macs. Food deserts are a symptom of my point: people are choosing (or are addicted to) processed food.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  The causation you're indicating is not clear at all to me. You seem to be saying, "Poor people prefer Big Macs therefore that's what they get, and no grocery stores." But an equally valid observation is that the lack of grocery stores and the presence of fast food and gas stations/corner stores produce an apparent preference without indicating a real preference.
  - username90 6y ago
    Food deserts doesn't exist in most countries though, it is an American thing. Nowhere else is it hard to go find basic groceries you can use to cook anywhere.
    - Jtsummers 6y ago
      I don't get your point with this comment. bedhead suggested that Big Mac consumption by poor people leads directly to their food desert problem, my comment is that that causal order is not clear. An apparent preference can be created by lack of choice, not by actual choice. Do people in food deserts prefer Slim Jims from the corner store and Big Macs or does it seem that way because of a lack of choice?
username90 6y ago
If there was demand for good food people would open shops selling it. It happens all the time in Europe, you see poor people open cheap shops selling basic food in poor areas.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  > If there was demand for good food people would open shops selling it. Markets aren't perfect, contrary to popular belief on HN and other discussion boards. And even if something eventually shows up, it's not going to show up overnight. It still takes capital to pull off, which the locals almost universally lacked (racism is a hell of a thing in the US South) and outsiders have to decide it's worth the gamble for very little gain. How many people want to open a grocery store where 90% of your customers are on food stamps, and if they open it how well stocked will it be? (Based on the one grocery store we had, very poorly.)
  - username90 6y ago
    the market does its job here in Europe, why not USA? Maybe you should fix your market then.
- orwin 6y ago
  The key difference is population density. There is a demand, but its too low to be sustainable. And by the way, you have food deserts in europe (Alps, Balkans). I've never been to Estern Europe but a friend of mine is selling mercs (security detail to be exact) there and i souldn't be surprise if some food desert existed between Crimea and Oural from what i'm told. Small productor market and product are politically tainted too, so a small percentage of the population won't ever come in. And health shouldn't be about politics.