9 ms·

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessar

by II2II 6y ago

On the first day of a university course, several hundred students asked to line up and sign a two page agreement in order to access computing resources necessary for the course. When my turn came, I asked where I could read it without holding up the entire line. They were shocked that anyone would ask such a question, though they provided me a space to read over the document. If blindly signing a contract one of the first things that computer science students encounter, I'm not surprised that they simply put up those ToS without the expectation that they will be read.

LadyCailin 6y ago
Just out of curiosity, what happened if you declined to sign? You flunk out of the course? Reading the TOS is pointless anyways, when declining them is very problematic for you.
- Hnrobert42 6y ago
  What you are describing is a contact of adhesion. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contract_of_adhesion%29 https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contrac...
- II2II 6y ago
  I really don't know what would have happened. There was nothing worth objecting to, though it was certainly worth reading to understand the boundaries while accessing their system (i.e. it was for course use). Even if there was anything objectionable, the student may have to drop the course (rather than flunk it). Overall, I view blindly signing ToS as the foundation for the situation we see today: these agreements exist in cases where they probably should not or include terms that are increasingly detrimental to the recipient. There is a bit of a difference between outlining the rules for accessing a service and granting a service the right to sell your data or stripping away avenues for legal recourse.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    In university, I was involved in a situation that still haunts me. We had a couple Linux servers allocated to our multi-year project design team. I ended up as de facto systems admin. One of the younger team members asked me if he could use one of the machines to compile homework for another course. Given that the machine wasn't critical, I said certainly! (Applauding his initiative) A week later, the department sys admin sends me an email, noting our server pegged cpu and men utilization briefly and asking if we required additional resources. I responded, laid out exactly what happened (omitting the student's name), thank him for the attention, and tell him we don't need anything. At which point he drops me from the email chain, writes to the professor in charge of our group (a guy doing some really interesting stuff in AUUVs, and only teaching undergrads out of the kindness of his heart), and launches into a tirade about students abusing system resources, unfair advantages, violations of the honor code, academic integrity cases, etc. After discussing it with my professor, I send the admin an email apologizing for the misunderstanding, will make sure it won't happen again, and would appreciate if he raised concerns with me first next time. To which professor receives another email about "not letting students contact him about faculty matters." My prof told me to stop emailing him, which I wisely listened to. The student's name was never shared, and no actions were taken. But my takeaway was that kid almost had his academic career (and potentially his future) trashed, because someone decided to get a bee in their bonnet over an interpretation of rules. ... As a happy ending, I happened to know the BOFH in social circles outside of academia (doubt he linked me to my school self) and subsequent to this interaction his marriage collapsed, he moved to his farm, and eventually left university and took up an in depth study of the copious and frequent application of alcohol. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy...
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > To which professor receives another email about "not letting students contact him about faculty matters." This is the part of the story where I really did a double take. This sys admin originally emailed you about cpu utilization, right? It's not like you didn't have their email or hadn't been in contact before.
- aflag 6y ago
  I don't think reading it is pointless, even if you are very likely to accept all but the most draconian of terms. You still need to know the rules, otherwise, you may inadvertently break them, which could have very harmful consequences.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  Yeah, too many times you don't get to read the TOS of something until after you've already signed up/paid. I'm sure you could bring up legal action, but everyone knows that's cost prohibitive...
vsareto 6y ago
It's the same thing with leases and technology. This apartment has smart home things (hub, A/C, smart lock) that's controlled through a mobile app. The lease says you're responsible for supplying the internet for the devices and calling the company when the app or devices are not working, but the apartment complex insists they take care of it (they really do, they didn't lie). But there were no solid answers on why this section was in the lease and it was completely false as I haven't had to support or provide internet for any of the devices. This led to: "I don't want to support it, I'd rather remove them and just use a physical key" but they weren't able to remove them, nor remove the section from the lease. I get it, they aren't lawyers, but it's weird when you read it and realize how different things are in the real world compared to some of the agreements we all sign (completely the opposite, in this case). If it came to it, I have no doubt I'd still be held to the terms of the lease though.
alexfromapex 6y ago
I had a quiz in middle school where the end of the directions said to ignore everything and put down your pencil. Really wish all schools taught this.
- nemo44x 6y ago
  It’s good training for test taking in general. Read every question before starting. Then solve the ones you find easy first. Many people are “bad at tests” because they get stuck on something, panic, waste all their time and then blow the test.
  - guitarbill 6y ago
    I used to do the opposite, start from the back where the bigger/harder questions where when I was still fresh, and work backwards(?) to the easier questions with fewer points. Agree that leaving a question half finished with enough space to come back to it and finish it is also a good idea, instead of getting stuck and demoralised. In any case, I think it's fair to say that reading all of the test, thinking about how you want to approach it, and not just blindly following the ordering provided is going to be better than a naive approach - no matter what ordering is chosen.
    - nemo44x 6y ago
      Indeed - just make sure you read it all first and then solve whatever you find most comfortable solving. For me I found that doing the ones I knew immediately how to solve first and then going back to the ones I didn’t quite get at first made those easier when revisiting. I think maybe getting my brain into context made referencing that information possible and possibly by reading them and moving on, it gave my brain some time to begin processing them. No idea though. Same idea applies to IKEA assembly. Read all the directions first.
- WindyLakeReturn 6y ago
  I had a similar quiz. I never really liked them because it always bothered me why I was expected to follow the last instruction first, regardless of what it said. Even if it said to ignore the previous instructions, I would only be following it once I reached it, which would mean all other instructions had been followed. Nothing in the initial rules that said to read all instructions gave any indication that one should pick and choose which instructions to follow or that you should do them in reverse order. Perhaps this was the moment when I first started the path to being a programmer.
joekrill 6y ago
It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely get the sense that no one ever really reads these things or questions them.
- mlthoughts2018 6y ago
  When I have pushed back on the same topic, it usually is met with negativity. I believe recruiting and hiring staff have some incentives to treat you like you’re crazy if you want special provisions or need clarification on complex terms. In my career, I’ve negotiated - a severance package in my offer letter from a company that said, “we don’t offer severance packages as a matter of policy.” - a sign on bonus from a company that said, “we don’t offer sign-on bonuses as a matter of policy.” - a longer expiration period for startup options, as well as partial acceleration of vesting in the case of a significant liquidity event, from a company that said, “we can’t modify our standard equity agreement papers.” - immediate full vesting of matched 401(k) contributions from a company that said, “our policy is that matched contributions only vest after 1 year.” - ability to expense my own Linux workstation, which I could keep, in the offer letter, from a company that said employees are only allowed to be issued Mac laptops. - explicit extra section in the offer letter stating that any IP created by me using only my personal equipment and personal time was my sole property and was explicitly not subject to any part of the employee handbook dealing with ownership of IP. In all these cases, the conversation usually started out with me being gaslit about all this being impossible or my expectations being crazy. But after sticking to my requirements, eventually it normalized out into a sincere discussion. I should add, all these examples came from very large companies except for the case of the options expiry and acceleration. I also gave a hard “no” to many companies over the years that wouldn’t negotiate on topics like these, and I can say I don’t regret it one bit. There’s never been a case where I said no to a job offer over inflexibility on all these topics and then later regretted it.
  - 6y ago
hnarn 6y ago
I was kind of hoping that this was going to end along the lines of “I was actually studying law and the professor then called us out on the importance of reading contracts that you sign, and proceeded to list all the ridiculous things we had just agreed to”. Too bad.
- lcall 6y ago
  I knew a pleasant fellow, a FLOSS maintainer somewhat well known at least in his niche, who provided wifi to neighbors, but they had to click through an agreement first. Only one read it. Buried in the text, experimentally, it said they had to give him all their possessions upon request. (He isn't the type to do it, but wanted to know who read it.)
banana_giraffe 6y ago
When I went into sing my Mortgage Loan, the officer pointed at the X's and said "sign here, here, and initial here, here, and here" I then turned to page one and started reading. The conversation that ensued, where they tried to get me to sign without "wasting their time" was amazing. I get I'm unusual for wanted to read what I'm signing, but I can't have been the only one. I do suspect I was one of the rare ones that they couldn't bully into signing quickly.
- dragonsngoblins 6y ago
  A mortgage is a lot of money, how can so many people not be reading them?
  - m463 6y ago
    They are worried they won't be lent the money and the purchase will fall though.
- lcall 6y ago
  I do the same kinds of things, but sometimes it helps warn them in a friendly way before scheduling the appointment. :) Often, I try to request the papers etc in advance, to make it easier on all of us, then I can take my time, ask questions, etc.
  - banana_giraffe 6y ago
    As I said, it was a bizarre conversation. I did ask if I could reschedule if time was tight right now. I totally get it if they had an appointment, even something not work related, that I'm putting at risk. They were having none of it. It's possible I just got a jerk.
    - lcall 6y ago
      Yah, it is hard. Sometimes I thought afterward that I was a jerk (or someone else was). Live, learn, practice as we go sometimes. Frankly I applaud you for efforts at being honest and reasonable at the same time -- it is not a skill we are born with, it would seem...?
m463 6y ago
What about objecting and still participating?

by II2II 6y ago

LadyCailin 6y ago

Just out of curiosity, what happened if you declined to sign? You flunk out of the course? Reading the TOS is pointless anyways, when declining them is very problematic for you.

Hnrobert42 6y ago
What you are describing is a contact of adhesion. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contract_of_adhesion%29 https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/adhesion_contract_%28contrac...
II2II 6y ago
I really don't know what would have happened. There was nothing worth objecting to, though it was certainly worth reading to understand the boundaries while accessing their system (i.e. it was for course use). Even if there was anything objectionable, the student may have to drop the course (rather than flunk it). Overall, I view blindly signing ToS as the foundation for the situation we see today: these agreements exist in cases where they probably should not or include terms that are increasingly detrimental to the recipient. There is a bit of a difference between outlining the rules for accessing a service and granting a service the right to sell your data or stripping away avenues for legal recourse.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  In university, I was involved in a situation that still haunts me. We had a couple Linux servers allocated to our multi-year project design team. I ended up as de facto systems admin. One of the younger team members asked me if he could use one of the machines to compile homework for another course. Given that the machine wasn't critical, I said certainly! (Applauding his initiative) A week later, the department sys admin sends me an email, noting our server pegged cpu and men utilization briefly and asking if we required additional resources. I responded, laid out exactly what happened (omitting the student's name), thank him for the attention, and tell him we don't need anything. At which point he drops me from the email chain, writes to the professor in charge of our group (a guy doing some really interesting stuff in AUUVs, and only teaching undergrads out of the kindness of his heart), and launches into a tirade about students abusing system resources, unfair advantages, violations of the honor code, academic integrity cases, etc. After discussing it with my professor, I send the admin an email apologizing for the misunderstanding, will make sure it won't happen again, and would appreciate if he raised concerns with me first next time. To which professor receives another email about "not letting students contact him about faculty matters." My prof told me to stop emailing him, which I wisely listened to. The student's name was never shared, and no actions were taken. But my takeaway was that kid almost had his academic career (and potentially his future) trashed, because someone decided to get a bee in their bonnet over an interpretation of rules. ... As a happy ending, I happened to know the BOFH in social circles outside of academia (doubt he linked me to my school self) and subsequent to this interaction his marriage collapsed, he moved to his farm, and eventually left university and took up an in depth study of the copious and frequent application of alcohol. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy...
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > To which professor receives another email about "not letting students contact him about faculty matters." This is the part of the story where I really did a double take. This sys admin originally emailed you about cpu utilization, right? It's not like you didn't have their email or hadn't been in contact before.
aflag 6y ago
I don't think reading it is pointless, even if you are very likely to accept all but the most draconian of terms. You still need to know the rules, otherwise, you may inadvertently break them, which could have very harmful consequences.
dfxm12 6y ago
Yeah, too many times you don't get to read the TOS of something until after you've already signed up/paid. I'm sure you could bring up legal action, but everyone knows that's cost prohibitive...

vsareto 6y ago

It's the same thing with leases and technology. This apartment has smart home things (hub, A/C, smart lock) that's controlled through a mobile app. The lease says you're responsible for supplying the internet for the devices and calling the company when the app or devices are not working, but the apartment complex insists they take care of it (they really do, they didn't lie). But there were no solid answers on why this section was in the lease and it was completely false as I haven't had to support or provide internet for any of the devices. This led to: "I don't want to support it, I'd rather remove them and just use a physical key" but they weren't able to remove them, nor remove the section from the lease. I get it, they aren't lawyers, but it's weird when you read it and realize how different things are in the real world compared to some of the agreements we all sign (completely the opposite, in this case). If it came to it, I have no doubt I'd still be held to the terms of the lease though.

alexfromapex 6y ago

I had a quiz in middle school where the end of the directions said to ignore everything and put down your pencil. Really wish all schools taught this.

nemo44x 6y ago
It’s good training for test taking in general. Read every question before starting. Then solve the ones you find easy first. Many people are “bad at tests” because they get stuck on something, panic, waste all their time and then blow the test.
- guitarbill 6y ago
  I used to do the opposite, start from the back where the bigger/harder questions where when I was still fresh, and work backwards(?) to the easier questions with fewer points. Agree that leaving a question half finished with enough space to come back to it and finish it is also a good idea, instead of getting stuck and demoralised. In any case, I think it's fair to say that reading all of the test, thinking about how you want to approach it, and not just blindly following the ordering provided is going to be better than a naive approach - no matter what ordering is chosen.
  - nemo44x 6y ago
    Indeed - just make sure you read it all first and then solve whatever you find most comfortable solving. For me I found that doing the ones I knew immediately how to solve first and then going back to the ones I didn’t quite get at first made those easier when revisiting. I think maybe getting my brain into context made referencing that information possible and possibly by reading them and moving on, it gave my brain some time to begin processing them. No idea though. Same idea applies to IKEA assembly. Read all the directions first.
WindyLakeReturn 6y ago
I had a similar quiz. I never really liked them because it always bothered me why I was expected to follow the last instruction first, regardless of what it said. Even if it said to ignore the previous instructions, I would only be following it once I reached it, which would mean all other instructions had been followed. Nothing in the initial rules that said to read all instructions gave any indication that one should pick and choose which instructions to follow or that you should do them in reverse order. Perhaps this was the moment when I first started the path to being a programmer.

joekrill 6y ago

It's absolutely astounding to me how many folks blindly sign legal documents. Especially employment related. Whenever I've pushed back on an employment contract, NDA, or similar it's always met with sudden confusion - as though this has never happened before. In fairness, it's almost never met with negatively. But it shows that no one else has ever bothered to question it. And when I talk to colleagues I definitely get the sense that no one ever really reads these things or questions them.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago
When I have pushed back on the same topic, it usually is met with negativity. I believe recruiting and hiring staff have some incentives to treat you like you’re crazy if you want special provisions or need clarification on complex terms. In my career, I’ve negotiated - a severance package in my offer letter from a company that said, “we don’t offer severance packages as a matter of policy.” - a sign on bonus from a company that said, “we don’t offer sign-on bonuses as a matter of policy.” - a longer expiration period for startup options, as well as partial acceleration of vesting in the case of a significant liquidity event, from a company that said, “we can’t modify our standard equity agreement papers.” - immediate full vesting of matched 401(k) contributions from a company that said, “our policy is that matched contributions only vest after 1 year.” - ability to expense my own Linux workstation, which I could keep, in the offer letter, from a company that said employees are only allowed to be issued Mac laptops. - explicit extra section in the offer letter stating that any IP created by me using only my personal equipment and personal time was my sole property and was explicitly not subject to any part of the employee handbook dealing with ownership of IP. In all these cases, the conversation usually started out with me being gaslit about all this being impossible or my expectations being crazy. But after sticking to my requirements, eventually it normalized out into a sincere discussion. I should add, all these examples came from very large companies except for the case of the options expiry and acceleration. I also gave a hard “no” to many companies over the years that wouldn’t negotiate on topics like these, and I can say I don’t regret it one bit. There’s never been a case where I said no to a job offer over inflexibility on all these topics and then later regretted it.
- 6y ago

hnarn 6y ago

I was kind of hoping that this was going to end along the lines of “I was actually studying law and the professor then called us out on the importance of reading contracts that you sign, and proceeded to list all the ridiculous things we had just agreed to”. Too bad.

lcall 6y ago
I knew a pleasant fellow, a FLOSS maintainer somewhat well known at least in his niche, who provided wifi to neighbors, but they had to click through an agreement first. Only one read it. Buried in the text, experimentally, it said they had to give him all their possessions upon request. (He isn't the type to do it, but wanted to know who read it.)

banana_giraffe 6y ago

When I went into sing my Mortgage Loan, the officer pointed at the X's and said "sign here, here, and initial here, here, and here" I then turned to page one and started reading. The conversation that ensued, where they tried to get me to sign without "wasting their time" was amazing. I get I'm unusual for wanted to read what I'm signing, but I can't have been the only one. I do suspect I was one of the rare ones that they couldn't bully into signing quickly.

dragonsngoblins 6y ago
A mortgage is a lot of money, how can so many people not be reading them?
- m463 6y ago
  They are worried they won't be lent the money and the purchase will fall though.
lcall 6y ago
I do the same kinds of things, but sometimes it helps warn them in a friendly way before scheduling the appointment. :) Often, I try to request the papers etc in advance, to make it easier on all of us, then I can take my time, ask questions, etc.
- banana_giraffe 6y ago
  As I said, it was a bizarre conversation. I did ask if I could reschedule if time was tight right now. I totally get it if they had an appointment, even something not work related, that I'm putting at risk. They were having none of it. It's possible I just got a jerk.
  - lcall 6y ago
    Yah, it is hard. Sometimes I thought afterward that I was a jerk (or someone else was). Live, learn, practice as we go sometimes. Frankly I applaud you for efforts at being honest and reasonable at the same time -- it is not a skill we are born with, it would seem...?

m463 6y ago

What about objecting and still participating?