11 ms·

> a) 50 years is enough for "institutional memory" to go out of the window. This may change with longevity breakthroughs, but 50 years is currently enough for a

> a) 50 years is enough for "institutional memory" to go out of the window. This may change with longevity breakthroughs, but 50 years is currently enough for a complete generation exchange, so the new leaders have no memory of the previous upheaval and will make the same mistakes again. Or at least the same kind of mistakes, details are always different. That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy. Education is everything.

inglor_cz 6y ago
"That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy. Education is everything. " The kind of people who get into positions of power - well, my impression is that they think they know better. Even if they are aware of the fact that in 1930 someone fucked up, they will not entertain the fact that they themselves might do the same. Also, some events are really complex. You can educate people about the 1929 or 2008 economic crises from very different perspectives, from far-left to libertarian, and the lessons will be very different.
- jsmcgd 6y ago
  I think that's why an education has to be broad. A selective education can be tantamount to brainwashing/propaganda. Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information; knowing that not all will, but most. I believe that the more perspectives you are aware of, the less likely you are to be dogmatic and extreme in your beliefs and actions. You will be reminded how dissimilar real life is to simple ideas and rhetoric, that it is a shifting ocean of nuances and caveats. Or society can go the other route, assume you cannot trust the people and create a tyranny of disinformation and control.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    > Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information I don’t know if you’ve gone to college recently but that was not my impression. It’s a woke monoculture. Discourse is gone.
    - SantalBlush 6y ago
      Discourse is narrower than you'd like; that doesn't mean it's "gone". When someone makes extraordinary claims like "Discourse is gone," that is a red flag that they are not viewing the situation objectively.
      - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
        Precisely demonstrating my point: a hyper-sensitivity and censorious attitude against any advocacy for unmitigated debate.
        SantalBlush 6y ago
        You are calling my disagreement a "censorious attitude." Sorry, but I am allowed to disagree with you.
      - squidlogic 6y ago
        So perhaps a better claim would be that the new discourse is unduly confined and the older modes of discourse are gone.
        SantalBlush 6y ago
        That's a better starting point for a productive discussion, but still hyperbolic. Moreover, do you notice that my comment is being grayed out as people who disagree are downvoting it? A lot of people who claim to value discussion really don't; not on Hacker News, and not elsewhere.
        cbozeman 6y ago
        You're being downvoted because discourse should never be narrowed, period. Ideas should be thrown into the public square, in the full light of day, and judged on their merits.
        6y ago
  - zarkov99 6y ago
    Perspectives are important and so is a humble study of history as way to understand human nature. We are so in love with your technological prowess that we forget it all sits on top of wetware that is very close to what it was 10000 years ago. Recognizing we are driven largely by instinct, some of which we can inhibit some we cannot, would help all of understand what works and what does not in a human society.
- mrfusion 6y ago
  The most educated people I know seem the most partisan right now and most likely to parrot main stream media talking points. It’s making me question my assumptions about education. On the other hand Im just one data point.
  - rblatz 6y ago
    Mainstream media talking points vary from Trump and his family are breaking norms and traditions in a very dangerous way to our country, all the way to the Biden crime family is going to ruin this country. With major undertones of a lot of hurt, anger, and feeling like there is no hope among minorities or rural whites depending on which sources you choose to consume. Both are true, both need addressed. And it’s likely not a coincidence that both groups think the other’s movement is their enemy.
    - undoware 6y ago
      I get routinely modded down on this site for pointing out issues that are ostensibly too political, like workplace discrimination. But on this same site, somoene can literally carry on a discussion echoing the (proven false) propaganda points ("biden crime family"? dear lord) and it stays up without downvote for (checks watch) an hour and counting. Everything this past week has been a chest x-ray of our collective spirit, and it came back solid white. This is vastly smaller in degree but not in kind. Time for some introspection, dear readers.
      - afuchs 6y ago
        This is a bit of a meta discussion, but there does seem to be a marked difference between what the moderators do (most recently, pruning entire threads) and what users using the "flag" button and down voting does. The last couple of days have been particularly hellish, with many threads that descended into flame wars which drifted far away from whatever the original post was about. I agree that there have been many threads that were far from being good faith discussions and turned into shouting matches with too many posts made in bad faith (such as citing bad sources that did not contain anything directly relevant to the point being argued, or links to sources that just repeated the original unsubstantiated allegation without presenting any evidence). Actions taken by users in these threads seemed to reflect preexisting biases rather than anything resembling a good faith debate. With that I want to express my appreciation for the moderators who's job I do not envy but who are very necessary to keeping this site functioning in any way.
iguy 6y ago
And the type of education surely matters. If the goal is to break through this 50-year horizon, then presumably an important part is to really get inside the heads of people at least that long ago. Not to just translate our quarrels & concerns backwards, but rather to stay immersed in the issues of (say) 1920 long enough to feel what was important to people of the time.
- thewindowmovie5 6y ago
  ...
thewindowmovie5 6y ago
Agree. I think the current crisis in US is because of lack of education and the whitewashing or omitting of important events in history. Just yesterday I saw a comment in here adding that deejays now have control of all three branches of the government(which was obviously false) and that was dangerous. But i guess the poster had no idea about what the three branches of the government.
roenxi 6y ago
I dunno, there are a lot of countries famous for their education which are nevertheless not ideal places to go. Culture might be a more important aspect than education. Education is relatively easy to transplant (c.f. China & the rest of Asia, or the US stealing many of Germany's good scientists after WWII, or the Brits leaching French expertise after the revolution). Culture is really hard to transplant because nobody knows which are the good bits and which are the bad bits. I'll throw these two in because I they are an interesting and relevant example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Isambard_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Isambard_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel
- iguy 6y ago
  These examples are of technical education. German rocket scientists, and British blast-furnace wizards (to France). These things are important of course but seem orthogonal to political institutional memory. Scholars deeply steeped in Bismark's thoughts & mistakes, or in English constitutional law, didn't make these jumps.
  - paganel 6y ago
    > or in English constitutional law Carl Schmitt did in fact made the jump, and he's one of the most read constitutional law writers in the last century. Not sure if Max Weber would have done the same, most probably not (he was really versed in English constitutional law, his "Economy and Society" has lots of quotes to Maitland's "History of English Law"), but he didn't strike me as a fervent supporter of democracy rights either. And there was also the definite jump made by Heidegger, not exactly a legal scholar but a very well-read person nonetheless (and a mentor to Hannah Arendt, among others).
    - Der_Einzige 6y ago
      Not just mentor, he was her boyfriend!!! And an ironic situation, given his nazi ties and her jewishness...
    - 6y ago
anewaccount2021 6y ago
This is what I would expect a technocratic forum like HN to suggest. America's most poverty stricken regions have had public education for nearly a century with almost no meaningful improvement in prospects. Tell me how rural poverty in West Viriginia is reduced by giving people humanities degrees. Better educated voters? Who cares, the poor have no representation of merit anyway; their choices are to vote for one party who ignores them or the other that ignores them.
- eloff 6y ago
  Public education in the US is awful and lags nearly the entire developed world. Humanities degrees are not terribly useful, but boiling all education down to humanities degrees is a blatant strawman that signals a lot about your willingness to have a nuanced discussion. I think it's fairly self evident that investment in the future is what improves the future and education is probably the most important and significant such investment.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. Italy has top-class university system, much older than Columbus, and yet the country seems to be stuck in stagnation for last 20 years and the talented fresh graduates of those top schools move abroad.
    - eloff 6y ago
      I would say it's one very important factor among others. Ray Dalio outlines many of the factors involved in nations rising and falling, including education in a freely available online book. I've found it an interesting read, although he takes a while to get to the point.[1] [1] https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/ https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/
    - j0ba 6y ago
      > Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. If you think anyone said that, you should probably talk less and read more. Because it doesn't appear you're competent in either. Education is necessary but not sufficient.
AniseAbyss 6y ago
Education doesn't work when people only watch their propaganda media. And when your entire social and professional circle is in the cult good luck breaking out.
brightball 6y ago
This is basically the Old Testament IMO. Same mistakes over and over, separated by a couple of generations once one generation gets comfortable.
krona 6y ago
"The road to hell is paved with Ivy League degrees."
graeme 6y ago
Education is not experience. It can help deal with situations similar to the past but it is far from sufficient to make up for the 50 year problem.
kortilla 6y ago
Yet education does not help. Being told about the events does not really capture the emotions that lead to them. Education is the reason the details are different but fundamentally nothing gets prevented.
cmurf 6y ago
Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Matt Gaetz, and John Kennedy, are among the most educated in Congress. And yet are the most self-serving, craven, mendacious, and anti-democratic to have served in the modern era. What evidence is there that education applied any constraint on them? Where does good character come from?

inglor_cz 6y ago

"That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy. Education is everything. " The kind of people who get into positions of power - well, my impression is that they think they know better. Even if they are aware of the fact that in 1930 someone fucked up, they will not entertain the fact that they themselves might do the same. Also, some events are really complex. You can educate people about the 1929 or 2008 economic crises from very different perspectives, from far-left to libertarian, and the lessons will be very different.

jsmcgd 6y ago
I think that's why an education has to be broad. A selective education can be tantamount to brainwashing/propaganda. Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information; knowing that not all will, but most. I believe that the more perspectives you are aware of, the less likely you are to be dogmatic and extreme in your beliefs and actions. You will be reminded how dissimilar real life is to simple ideas and rhetoric, that it is a shifting ocean of nuances and caveats. Or society can go the other route, assume you cannot trust the people and create a tyranny of disinformation and control.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information I don’t know if you’ve gone to college recently but that was not my impression. It’s a woke monoculture. Discourse is gone.
  - SantalBlush 6y ago
    Discourse is narrower than you'd like; that doesn't mean it's "gone". When someone makes extraordinary claims like "Discourse is gone," that is a red flag that they are not viewing the situation objectively.
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      Precisely demonstrating my point: a hyper-sensitivity and censorious attitude against any advocacy for unmitigated debate.
      - SantalBlush 6y ago
        You are calling my disagreement a "censorious attitude." Sorry, but I am allowed to disagree with you.
    - squidlogic 6y ago
      So perhaps a better claim would be that the new discourse is unduly confined and the older modes of discourse are gone.
      - SantalBlush 6y ago
        That's a better starting point for a productive discussion, but still hyperbolic. Moreover, do you notice that my comment is being grayed out as people who disagree are downvoting it? A lot of people who claim to value discussion really don't; not on Hacker News, and not elsewhere.
        cbozeman 6y ago
        You're being downvoted because discourse should never be narrowed, period. Ideas should be thrown into the public square, in the full light of day, and judged on their merits.
        6y ago
- zarkov99 6y ago
  Perspectives are important and so is a humble study of history as way to understand human nature. We are so in love with your technological prowess that we forget it all sits on top of wetware that is very close to what it was 10000 years ago. Recognizing we are driven largely by instinct, some of which we can inhibit some we cannot, would help all of understand what works and what does not in a human society.
mrfusion 6y ago
The most educated people I know seem the most partisan right now and most likely to parrot main stream media talking points. It’s making me question my assumptions about education. On the other hand Im just one data point.
- rblatz 6y ago
  Mainstream media talking points vary from Trump and his family are breaking norms and traditions in a very dangerous way to our country, all the way to the Biden crime family is going to ruin this country. With major undertones of a lot of hurt, anger, and feeling like there is no hope among minorities or rural whites depending on which sources you choose to consume. Both are true, both need addressed. And it’s likely not a coincidence that both groups think the other’s movement is their enemy.
  - undoware 6y ago
    I get routinely modded down on this site for pointing out issues that are ostensibly too political, like workplace discrimination. But on this same site, somoene can literally carry on a discussion echoing the (proven false) propaganda points ("biden crime family"? dear lord) and it stays up without downvote for (checks watch) an hour and counting. Everything this past week has been a chest x-ray of our collective spirit, and it came back solid white. This is vastly smaller in degree but not in kind. Time for some introspection, dear readers.
    - afuchs 6y ago
      This is a bit of a meta discussion, but there does seem to be a marked difference between what the moderators do (most recently, pruning entire threads) and what users using the "flag" button and down voting does. The last couple of days have been particularly hellish, with many threads that descended into flame wars which drifted far away from whatever the original post was about. I agree that there have been many threads that were far from being good faith discussions and turned into shouting matches with too many posts made in bad faith (such as citing bad sources that did not contain anything directly relevant to the point being argued, or links to sources that just repeated the original unsubstantiated allegation without presenting any evidence). Actions taken by users in these threads seemed to reflect preexisting biases rather than anything resembling a good faith debate. With that I want to express my appreciation for the moderators who's job I do not envy but who are very necessary to keeping this site functioning in any way.

iguy 6y ago

And the type of education surely matters. If the goal is to break through this 50-year horizon, then presumably an important part is to really get inside the heads of people at least that long ago. Not to just translate our quarrels & concerns backwards, but rather to stay immersed in the issues of (say) 1920 long enough to feel what was important to people of the time.

thewindowmovie5 6y ago
...

thewindowmovie5 6y ago

Agree. I think the current crisis in US is because of lack of education and the whitewashing or omitting of important events in history. Just yesterday I saw a comment in here adding that deejays now have control of all three branches of the government(which was obviously false) and that was dangerous. But i guess the poster had no idea about what the three branches of the government.

roenxi 6y ago

I dunno, there are a lot of countries famous for their education which are nevertheless not ideal places to go. Culture might be a more important aspect than education. Education is relatively easy to transplant (c.f. China & the rest of Asia, or the US stealing many of Germany's good scientists after WWII, or the Brits leaching French expertise after the revolution). Culture is really hard to transplant because nobody knows which are the good bits and which are the bad bits. I'll throw these two in because I they are an interesting and relevant example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Isambard_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Isambard_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel

iguy 6y ago
These examples are of technical education. German rocket scientists, and British blast-furnace wizards (to France). These things are important of course but seem orthogonal to political institutional memory. Scholars deeply steeped in Bismark's thoughts & mistakes, or in English constitutional law, didn't make these jumps.
- paganel 6y ago
  > or in English constitutional law Carl Schmitt did in fact made the jump, and he's one of the most read constitutional law writers in the last century. Not sure if Max Weber would have done the same, most probably not (he was really versed in English constitutional law, his "Economy and Society" has lots of quotes to Maitland's "History of English Law"), but he didn't strike me as a fervent supporter of democracy rights either. And there was also the definite jump made by Heidegger, not exactly a legal scholar but a very well-read person nonetheless (and a mentor to Hannah Arendt, among others).
  - Der_Einzige 6y ago
    Not just mentor, he was her boyfriend!!! And an ironic situation, given his nazi ties and her jewishness...
  - 6y ago

anewaccount2021 6y ago

This is what I would expect a technocratic forum like HN to suggest. America's most poverty stricken regions have had public education for nearly a century with almost no meaningful improvement in prospects. Tell me how rural poverty in West Viriginia is reduced by giving people humanities degrees. Better educated voters? Who cares, the poor have no representation of merit anyway; their choices are to vote for one party who ignores them or the other that ignores them.

eloff 6y ago
Public education in the US is awful and lags nearly the entire developed world. Humanities degrees are not terribly useful, but boiling all education down to humanities degrees is a blatant strawman that signals a lot about your willingness to have a nuanced discussion. I think it's fairly self evident that investment in the future is what improves the future and education is probably the most important and significant such investment.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. Italy has top-class university system, much older than Columbus, and yet the country seems to be stuck in stagnation for last 20 years and the talented fresh graduates of those top schools move abroad.
  - eloff 6y ago
    I would say it's one very important factor among others. Ray Dalio outlines many of the factors involved in nations rising and falling, including education in a freely available online book. I've found it an interesting read, although he takes a while to get to the point.[1] [1] https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/ https://www.principles.com/the-changing-world-order/
  - j0ba 6y ago
    > Good education system does not neatly translate to, say, economic success. If you think anyone said that, you should probably talk less and read more. Because it doesn't appear you're competent in either. Education is necessary but not sufficient.

AniseAbyss 6y ago

Education doesn't work when people only watch their propaganda media. And when your entire social and professional circle is in the cult good luck breaking out.

brightball 6y ago

This is basically the Old Testament IMO. Same mistakes over and over, separated by a couple of generations once one generation gets comfortable.

krona 6y ago

"The road to hell is paved with Ivy League degrees."

graeme 6y ago

Education is not experience. It can help deal with situations similar to the past but it is far from sufficient to make up for the 50 year problem.

kortilla 6y ago

Yet education does not help. Being told about the events does not really capture the emotions that lead to them. Education is the reason the details are different but fundamentally nothing gets prevented.

cmurf 6y ago

Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Matt Gaetz, and John Kennedy, are among the most educated in Congress. And yet are the most self-serving, craven, mendacious, and anti-democratic to have served in the modern era. What evidence is there that education applied any constraint on them? Where does good character come from?