5 ms·

> hopefully this move pushes the government to force Apple to ... While I strongly oppose Apple's decision, I even more strongly oppose government involvement

> hopefully this move pushes the government to force Apple to ... While I strongly oppose Apple's decision, I even more strongly oppose government involvement as a solution. The government should not be able to compel association, it is essential to maintain freedom of association.

jedberg 6y ago
> it is essential to maintain freedom of association. Exactly. That's why the government should enforce my freedom to associate with who I want on my phone.
- abernard1 6y ago
  Seriously. Could there possibly be anything more against the spirit of the Apple 1984 commercial than them kicking off a messaging system that lets people say whatever they want? What's next, email? Are they going to ban text messages because people say no-no words on there?
  - sneak 6y ago
    They already edited the pistol emoji to a squirt gun to further a political agenda. It's not the same, but it's the same ballpark.
  - cm2187 6y ago
    I think browser could be a logical next. It’s not more rational for Apple to censor the content of the apps you run on your device than the content of the Website you browse on your device. In a way this is a form of death of net neutrality. What your ISP couldn’t do, Apple and Google happily will.
    - abernard1 6y ago
      But Net Neutrality already went away. We have seen no serious, systemic issues with ISPs. Section 230 on the other hand...
      - cm2187 6y ago
        In the US yes.
  - Bud 6y ago
    Could you at least try to argue in good faith? Speculation that email and text messages will be banned by Apple isn't in good faith, or even minimally interesting.
  - yew 6y ago
    There's no need to ban email. It's unencrypted plain text, with a small number of majority providers. Filtering extremist content at that level should be easy enough.
- enumjorge 6y ago
  Alt-right apps, sites and people weren’t banned for associating with the wrong crowd, they were banned for their role in trying to overthrow the government.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    And that's fine. Let the government block those apps. Let's have some due process here. I own my phone, I should be able to put what I want on it.
    - thereare5lights 6y ago
      You intentionally bought a phone with an operating system that intentionally controls what apps are allowed to be on it. You don't have much of an argument here. No one is forcing you to buy that. You don't even have the argument that Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone mart. There is a readily available alternative in Android. Android allows you to install whatever you want.
    - skygazer 6y ago
      Apple's ecosystem may not be right for you. It's widely known to be curated, and it seems the majority of Apple users appreciate the curation. It's possible you didn't know the state of the ecosystem when you purchased the device and agreed to the terms, and it's unfortunate you only had 14 days to discover it before the return window closed, if you purchased directly from Apple. Perhaps they will make an exception for you. I've heard they occasionally allow returns outside of that window. Some people have luck selling their devices, and report they retain high resale value. Non sequitur: My first VCR was a BetaMax. We got it on sale without knowing much about the technology. Once we had it a few days, I really wished it handled VHS tapes, as that's all the movie rental stores had. We returned it.
      - PostOnce 6y ago
        Any user that wants to could continue using Apple's curated store and apps, regardless of anyone else sideloading... just like the average Android user. That has nothing to do with them going out of their way to make it impossible to sideload anything. Apple preventing me from installing a social network by some group people don't like is akin to Ford not letting my car drive to a store owned by people they don't like. Do you think I should have to find a different car manufacturer to drive where I want?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nojito 6y ago
  You could buy another phone.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    This is the equivalent of saying "if you don't like the laws, just move to a new country!". Besides the logistical hurdles, one is not a substitute for the other. The pros still outweigh the cons, but that doesn't mean I can't push for better policies to fix the things I don't like.
- zepto 6y ago
  You have that freedom. You can do whatever you like with your phone. What you can’t do is force Apple to make software for you.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Do I? How do I install Fortnight on my iPhone? I'm not trying to force anyone to make software for my phone. I want Apple to let other people make software for my phone.
    - zepto 6y ago
      “I want Apple to let other people make software for my phone.” That involves forcing Apple to design their software to do what they don’t want it to do. Why not just buy the product that does? I know the answer to that, since you have given it earlier. It’s because you want Apple’s nice products, and have chosen that over the desire for an open ecosystem. Nobody is stopping you from having the freedom you want. In fact many companies provide it. This has nothing to do with rights at all. It’s just that Apple makes nicer things and you want to force them to meet your needs because the products that do aren’t as nice.
trident5000 6y ago
Sure, but then theres the monopoly/oligopoly issue which is fair play.

jedberg 6y ago

> it is essential to maintain freedom of association. Exactly. That's why the government should enforce my freedom to associate with who I want on my phone.

abernard1 6y ago
Seriously. Could there possibly be anything more against the spirit of the Apple 1984 commercial than them kicking off a messaging system that lets people say whatever they want? What's next, email? Are they going to ban text messages because people say no-no words on there?
- sneak 6y ago
  They already edited the pistol emoji to a squirt gun to further a political agenda. It's not the same, but it's the same ballpark.
- cm2187 6y ago
  I think browser could be a logical next. It’s not more rational for Apple to censor the content of the apps you run on your device than the content of the Website you browse on your device. In a way this is a form of death of net neutrality. What your ISP couldn’t do, Apple and Google happily will.
  - abernard1 6y ago
    But Net Neutrality already went away. We have seen no serious, systemic issues with ISPs. Section 230 on the other hand...
    - cm2187 6y ago
      In the US yes.
- Bud 6y ago
  Could you at least try to argue in good faith? Speculation that email and text messages will be banned by Apple isn't in good faith, or even minimally interesting.
- yew 6y ago
  There's no need to ban email. It's unencrypted plain text, with a small number of majority providers. Filtering extremist content at that level should be easy enough.
enumjorge 6y ago
Alt-right apps, sites and people weren’t banned for associating with the wrong crowd, they were banned for their role in trying to overthrow the government.
- jedberg 6y ago
  And that's fine. Let the government block those apps. Let's have some due process here. I own my phone, I should be able to put what I want on it.
  - thereare5lights 6y ago
    You intentionally bought a phone with an operating system that intentionally controls what apps are allowed to be on it. You don't have much of an argument here. No one is forcing you to buy that. You don't even have the argument that Apple has a monopoly on the smartphone mart. There is a readily available alternative in Android. Android allows you to install whatever you want.
  - skygazer 6y ago
    Apple's ecosystem may not be right for you. It's widely known to be curated, and it seems the majority of Apple users appreciate the curation. It's possible you didn't know the state of the ecosystem when you purchased the device and agreed to the terms, and it's unfortunate you only had 14 days to discover it before the return window closed, if you purchased directly from Apple. Perhaps they will make an exception for you. I've heard they occasionally allow returns outside of that window. Some people have luck selling their devices, and report they retain high resale value. Non sequitur: My first VCR was a BetaMax. We got it on sale without knowing much about the technology. Once we had it a few days, I really wished it handled VHS tapes, as that's all the movie rental stores had. We returned it.
    - PostOnce 6y ago
      Any user that wants to could continue using Apple's curated store and apps, regardless of anyone else sideloading... just like the average Android user. That has nothing to do with them going out of their way to make it impossible to sideload anything. Apple preventing me from installing a social network by some group people don't like is akin to Ford not letting my car drive to a store owned by people they don't like. Do you think I should have to find a different car manufacturer to drive where I want?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nojito 6y ago
You could buy another phone.
- jedberg 6y ago
  This is the equivalent of saying "if you don't like the laws, just move to a new country!". Besides the logistical hurdles, one is not a substitute for the other. The pros still outweigh the cons, but that doesn't mean I can't push for better policies to fix the things I don't like.
zepto 6y ago
You have that freedom. You can do whatever you like with your phone. What you can’t do is force Apple to make software for you.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Do I? How do I install Fortnight on my iPhone? I'm not trying to force anyone to make software for my phone. I want Apple to let other people make software for my phone.
  - zepto 6y ago
    “I want Apple to let other people make software for my phone.” That involves forcing Apple to design their software to do what they don’t want it to do. Why not just buy the product that does? I know the answer to that, since you have given it earlier. It’s because you want Apple’s nice products, and have chosen that over the desire for an open ecosystem. Nobody is stopping you from having the freedom you want. In fact many companies provide it. This has nothing to do with rights at all. It’s just that Apple makes nicer things and you want to force them to meet your needs because the products that do aren’t as nice.

trident5000 6y ago

Sure, but then theres the monopoly/oligopoly issue which is fair play.