6 ms·

> Could this escalate even past low-level companies and result in decentralized, uncensorable, and end-to-end encrypted technologies having action taken against

by tmpz22 6y ago

> Could this escalate even past low-level companies and result in decentralized, uncensorable, and end-to-end encrypted technologies having action taken against them? Americans drop a loser like a brick. Taking Parler off the app stores seriously de-legitimizes their cause and their celebrity. If you read Apple's language [1] its very clear Apple believes Parler is operating in extremely bad faith, that they either lack the ability to moderate or are only doing so as a temporary token gesture. This means Parler's user demographic will become more and more full of fringe radical elements that scare off the silent majority less radical crowd. [1]: "Your response also references a moderation plan “for the time being,” which does not meet the ongoing requirements in Guideline 1.2 – Safety – User Generated content"

toomuchtodo 6y ago
> This means Parler's user demographic will become more and more full of fringe radical elements that scare off the silent majority less radical crowd. The only way to contain fringe elements is to allow them to identify themselves and be prepared when they demonstrate intent to perform harmful acts (“terrorism”). The polite silent majority will go home, the extremist minority will go to prison if they overstep legal boundaries.
- ericmay 6y ago
  One thing to consider is recruitment of more people through exposure. “Radicalization” is a thing. I’m not sold on this action either way, just providing what I believe to be something worth considering.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Nope, you’re spot on. Diversions are critical for folks who might be on the path to radicalization, who can be reasoned with, who can critically think, and who can be brought back from the edge. Not everyone is a lost cause, and the effort must be put forth collectively.
    - jrumbut 6y ago
      Or not even radicalized, just massively misinformed. It seems like people denying a problem exists is creating massive inertia against solutions to even the most apparent and emotionally salient problems (mass shootings, COVID, etc).
    - war1025 6y ago
      Just like those Uyghurs in China, going off for "re-education" to learn how to be proper citizens.
  - bra-ket 6y ago
    I think the last 4 years of left wing propaganda from mainstream outlets was the main cause of radicalization on both sides. It’s hard no to be radicalized when you and millions of other conservatives are being labeled ‘racist’ and ‘fascist’ for no reason other than having different political views.
  - publicola1990 6y ago
    Yes, and all this de-platforming is only going to deepen divisions, I fear. Is there any real reason for doing so, since there is always provisions to deal with people who break laws. Are these companies acting preemptively from fear of being later assigned culpability?
    - jrumbut 6y ago
      I don't think it's about lawbreakers, it's about depriving the devoted core of access to a large casual following. The people really deeply devoted to these movements will remain, but many others will just lose interest if it becomes inconvenient.
  - r0s 6y ago
    Recruiting is a powerful method to reinforce tribalism. The constant rejection isolates and estranges the proselytizer from normal society.
- njanirudh 6y ago
  The exact same thing can be said about Twitter where the left actively cancels opposite ideas
- DSingularity 6y ago
  There are systemic problems in society today which can be exploited to amplify the problems of fringe groups. This is how we got trump. So what do we do?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
musicale 6y ago
> that they either lack the ability to moderate or are only doing so as a temporary token gesture Considering that Facebook and Twitter can't effectively moderate their platforms (algorithms don't work well and human moderation is too expensive) I doubt Parler could either, even if they wanted to.
- imposterr 6y ago
  That's because they make money from advertising that they then use to pay for moderators. I doubt most brands would even want to touch Parler with a 10 foot pole.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - DSingularity 6y ago
    As much as a wish for there to be no money for them, I honestly doubt it is zero. Traditionally conservative groups (eg NRA, political campaigns, firearm related businesses, ...) would probably find significantly better ROI on marketing budgets spent at parler.
    - chillwaves 6y ago
      NRA was being funded by Russia, so I guess Parler could give that a try. https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-ass...
      - roenxi 6y ago
        ... according to a new investigation unveiled Friday by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. Democrats have called everyone from sitting US presidents to Tulsi Gabbard a "Russian Asset". This is more than likely another false alarm. What are all these Russian assets meant to be doing anyway? Promoting an excessively calm world peace with strong ties between Russians and Americans? Russia hasn't been a credible threat to the US for 30 years. Nobody is accusing all these assets of actually doing anything. There isn't a path for how Russia is going to take advantage of the US. Anything Russia can do, China can do 3 times over. The time that they were an appropriate punching bag is long since past.
013a 6y ago
I think the critical component to this conversation that its important to stay focused on is not Apple's removal of Parler, but their continued insistence on maintaining exclusive control over what people install on their devices. Apple should have the right to control what they distribute through their app store; this is undeniable in my mind. A reasonable, though not as obviously sound, argument could be made that at some level of scope and scale its alright to sell general purpose hardware limited to one operating system which delegates control over executable code to the manufacturer. I believe its also clear that Apple is far past any values of scope and scale where this is reasonable for them, specifically. No one in these comments is talking about Google. Same thing happened with Fortnite; the conversation is all about Apple. This is a signal that the issue here really isn't their decision to allow or ban specific apps; its the core platform decision to allow or ban application distribution channels.
- creato 6y ago
  I think (but not sure) this thread was combined from multiple separate threads, some of which were only about Apple or Google or Amazon's actions. It seems like several threads with a few hundred comments each disappeared, and this one with 2k comments appeared out of nowhere. That might explain why it looks like all of the comments are about one or the other.
  - pfarrell 6y ago
    It did with at least one thread. I was reading on [0] refreshed and found that all comments were replaced with a message that they’d been moved here. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25708142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25708142
  - 013a 6y ago
    Yes, I believe that's what happened here. Very poor decision by the mods; the Google/Apple ones make sense to merge, but the AWS one is a very different issue, and could have a far more interesting technical discussion about migration paths.
- jasonlotito 6y ago
Aunche 6y ago
> Taking Parler off the app stores seriously de-legitimizes their cause and their celebrity Does it though? 21% of voters approved of storming of the Capitol. That's not something that can be cancelled by banning a single app. I can see these bans biting the liberals in the back the next time Republicans take control of the federal government. https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/07/US-capitol-trump-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...
- volkl48 6y ago
  Echo chambers breed extremism, and ones with a low barrier to entry and a smokescreen of "saner" content are much easier to bring in new users. If it's difficult to use the thing and the content skews more and more extreme, existing users may continue to get more radicalized, but new users don't offset attrition rates and eventually it dies off.
  - Aunche 6y ago
    Like with the Pirate Bay, the demand for Parler is already there. Outside of being declared illegal, Parler soon come back online or another app/website will take its place.
- pashamur 6y ago
  "What I found is that approximately 18 percent of Americans are highly disposed to authoritarianism, according to their answers to four simple survey questions used by social scientists to estimate this disposition. A further 23 percent or so are just one step below them on the authoritarian scale. This roughly 40 percent of Americans tend to favor authority, obedience and uniformity over freedom, independence and diversity." https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-amer... That also aligns with around 20% of voters supporting Nixon after Watergate. I think we should do our best to make sure that number stays at around 20% and does not grow; for if it does it imperils the whole democratic system of government that we take for granted.
  - 6y ago

by tmpz22 6y ago

toomuchtodo 6y ago

> This means Parler's user demographic will become more and more full of fringe radical elements that scare off the silent majority less radical crowd. The only way to contain fringe elements is to allow them to identify themselves and be prepared when they demonstrate intent to perform harmful acts (“terrorism”). The polite silent majority will go home, the extremist minority will go to prison if they overstep legal boundaries.

ericmay 6y ago
One thing to consider is recruitment of more people through exposure. “Radicalization” is a thing. I’m not sold on this action either way, just providing what I believe to be something worth considering.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Nope, you’re spot on. Diversions are critical for folks who might be on the path to radicalization, who can be reasoned with, who can critically think, and who can be brought back from the edge. Not everyone is a lost cause, and the effort must be put forth collectively.
  - jrumbut 6y ago
    Or not even radicalized, just massively misinformed. It seems like people denying a problem exists is creating massive inertia against solutions to even the most apparent and emotionally salient problems (mass shootings, COVID, etc).
  - war1025 6y ago
    Just like those Uyghurs in China, going off for "re-education" to learn how to be proper citizens.
- bra-ket 6y ago
  I think the last 4 years of left wing propaganda from mainstream outlets was the main cause of radicalization on both sides. It’s hard no to be radicalized when you and millions of other conservatives are being labeled ‘racist’ and ‘fascist’ for no reason other than having different political views.
- publicola1990 6y ago
  Yes, and all this de-platforming is only going to deepen divisions, I fear. Is there any real reason for doing so, since there is always provisions to deal with people who break laws. Are these companies acting preemptively from fear of being later assigned culpability?
  - jrumbut 6y ago
    I don't think it's about lawbreakers, it's about depriving the devoted core of access to a large casual following. The people really deeply devoted to these movements will remain, but many others will just lose interest if it becomes inconvenient.
- r0s 6y ago
  Recruiting is a powerful method to reinforce tribalism. The constant rejection isolates and estranges the proselytizer from normal society.
njanirudh 6y ago
The exact same thing can be said about Twitter where the left actively cancels opposite ideas
DSingularity 6y ago
There are systemic problems in society today which can be exploited to amplify the problems of fringe groups. This is how we got trump. So what do we do?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

musicale 6y ago

> that they either lack the ability to moderate or are only doing so as a temporary token gesture Considering that Facebook and Twitter can't effectively moderate their platforms (algorithms don't work well and human moderation is too expensive) I doubt Parler could either, even if they wanted to.

imposterr 6y ago
That's because they make money from advertising that they then use to pay for moderators. I doubt most brands would even want to touch Parler with a 10 foot pole.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DSingularity 6y ago
  As much as a wish for there to be no money for them, I honestly doubt it is zero. Traditionally conservative groups (eg NRA, political campaigns, firearm related businesses, ...) would probably find significantly better ROI on marketing budgets spent at parler.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    NRA was being funded by Russia, so I guess Parler could give that a try. https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-asset-to-russia-ahead-of-2016-new-senate-report-reveals https://www.npr.org/2019/09/27/764879242/nra-was-foreign-ass...
    - roenxi 6y ago
      ... according to a new investigation unveiled Friday by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. Democrats have called everyone from sitting US presidents to Tulsi Gabbard a "Russian Asset". This is more than likely another false alarm. What are all these Russian assets meant to be doing anyway? Promoting an excessively calm world peace with strong ties between Russians and Americans? Russia hasn't been a credible threat to the US for 30 years. Nobody is accusing all these assets of actually doing anything. There isn't a path for how Russia is going to take advantage of the US. Anything Russia can do, China can do 3 times over. The time that they were an appropriate punching bag is long since past.

013a 6y ago

I think the critical component to this conversation that its important to stay focused on is not Apple's removal of Parler, but their continued insistence on maintaining exclusive control over what people install on their devices. Apple should have the right to control what they distribute through their app store; this is undeniable in my mind. A reasonable, though not as obviously sound, argument could be made that at some level of scope and scale its alright to sell general purpose hardware limited to one operating system which delegates control over executable code to the manufacturer. I believe its also clear that Apple is far past any values of scope and scale where this is reasonable for them, specifically. No one in these comments is talking about Google. Same thing happened with Fortnite; the conversation is all about Apple. This is a signal that the issue here really isn't their decision to allow or ban specific apps; its the core platform decision to allow or ban application distribution channels.

creato 6y ago
I think (but not sure) this thread was combined from multiple separate threads, some of which were only about Apple or Google or Amazon's actions. It seems like several threads with a few hundred comments each disappeared, and this one with 2k comments appeared out of nowhere. That might explain why it looks like all of the comments are about one or the other.
- pfarrell 6y ago
  It did with at least one thread. I was reading on [0] refreshed and found that all comments were replaced with a message that they’d been moved here. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25708142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25708142
- 013a 6y ago
  Yes, I believe that's what happened here. Very poor decision by the mods; the Google/Apple ones make sense to merge, but the AWS one is a very different issue, and could have a far more interesting technical discussion about migration paths.
jasonlotito 6y ago

Aunche 6y ago

> Taking Parler off the app stores seriously de-legitimizes their cause and their celebrity Does it though? 21% of voters approved of storming of the Capitol. That's not something that can be cancelled by banning a single app. I can see these bans biting the liberals in the back the next time Republicans take control of the federal government. https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/07/US-capitol-trump-poll https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/20...

volkl48 6y ago
Echo chambers breed extremism, and ones with a low barrier to entry and a smokescreen of "saner" content are much easier to bring in new users. If it's difficult to use the thing and the content skews more and more extreme, existing users may continue to get more radicalized, but new users don't offset attrition rates and eventually it dies off.
- Aunche 6y ago
  Like with the Pirate Bay, the demand for Parler is already there. Outside of being declared illegal, Parler soon come back online or another app/website will take its place.
pashamur 6y ago
"What I found is that approximately 18 percent of Americans are highly disposed to authoritarianism, according to their answers to four simple survey questions used by social scientists to estimate this disposition. A further 23 percent or so are just one step below them on the authoritarian scale. This roughly 40 percent of Americans tend to favor authority, obedience and uniformity over freedom, independence and diversity." https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681 https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-amer... That also aligns with around 20% of voters supporting Nixon after Watergate. I think we should do our best to make sure that number stays at around 20% and does not grow; for if it does it imperils the whole democratic system of government that we take for granted.
- 6y ago