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I wish there would be a societal awakening in Europe and people would boycott American services. Countries need to reclaim their digital sovereignty if they hop

I wish there would be a societal awakening in Europe and people would boycott American services. Countries need to reclaim their digital sovereignty if they hope to preserve their culture. Back in college everyone I knew browsed reddit, 9gag, facebook, etc for hours every day. The european youth is getting raised by America and fed its political ideology one meme/discussion thread at a time. It took me a long while to realize I had been brainwashed. A lot of people I know tout themselves as citizens of the world, and consider nationalism a useless thing of the past, seemingly oblivious to the adversarial relationship we're in with our western allies wrt culture and trade.

systemvoltage 6y ago
So you want to idolicize the model of China?
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  I feel like you're being disingenuous. Just because China does something doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it's certainly in line with their economic interests. I think Americans are very aware of what a treacherous situation you put yourself in when you depend on people ideologically opposite to yourself (e.g: oil and manufacturing). But to be clear I'm not advocating for the Chinese model. I think each country should have their own software platforms to preserve their sovereignty and the interests of their citizens but I think they should be regulated to follow common standards to preserve the openness of the internet.
- dang 6y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Aerroon 6y ago
I think the problem is language. English offers a far wider platform to engage people, but it also means that discussions/engagements will be dominated mostly by Americans. Computer use also favors using English. As a result, American influence is kind of inevitable. At the same time though, America also feels the influence from all those other cultures.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  There's also lots of inertia around English. For better or worse, my default heuristic is that if I read something in Polish that isn't hyperlocal (e.g. country news, or research that's only done here), I'm better off looking for a text on it in English. In my experience, it'll universally be better. People doing best-class work usually do it in English, or are republished in English, due to sheer inertia of the economical and scientific dominance of English-speaking world. So I for one would not be very interested in more balkanized Internet, simply because this limits my options to mediocre sources, whereas knowing English and having access to a global platform lets me find better material.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  I agree completely, language plays a huge part which is why I'm always advocating for a European lingua franca. I've started writing all the learning resources I produce solely in German and French (whereas I'd always write them in English before for the sake of openness) but it's a drop in the bucket. Honestly I don't know how we're gonna get there.
- type0 6y ago
  > As a result, American influence is kind of inevitable. Yeah and it's only a matter of time until youtube will start de-platforming mainstrem hungarian vloggers because their values don't align with american Not related to social media but this stuff even happen IRL https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/09/hungarian-opera-asks-white-cast-to-identify-as-african-american-for-porgy-and-bess-product https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/09/hungarian-opera-asks-whi...
dang 6y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25705107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25705107.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  Why is that if I may ask? This was in direct response to the point on neo-imperialism and American foreign influence by the parent.
  - dang 6y ago
    I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't remember. Mostly we do that when a subthread goes too offtopic, especially when it makes the discussion more generic, which is a bad thing on HN [1]. But we might also do it as a pruning mechanism because the thread has become top-heavy and a subthread can stand on its own. We also do it when a comment is not really a reply to its parent, but was posted there for some other reason (usually because the parent was the top comment). I take your word for it that the latter was not the case here. Most likely it was because the subthread was too generic relative to the OP. What makes articles intellectually interesting are the specifics, the curious bits, the diffs [2] between it and comparable things. In the present case that was certainly the Ugandan aspect, and the theme of American cultural domination vis-a-vis Europe is a change of subject relative to that. Changes of subject can be fine if they're unpredictable and whimsical, but definitely not when they're a move towards the generic. Generic topics are like large planets with powerful gravitational fields—or even black holes—the default trend is for all threads to get sucked towards them, and that leads to a much less interesting place. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=diffs%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
    - ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
      Oh it's an interesting pattern, thanks for the explanation!
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
I will rather make up my own mind and decide what is the appropriate course of action and truth on each issue than swear fealty to a “culture” and observe it's tenants blindly, whatever they be. Now, what I have noticed is that some have consumed so much U.S.A. media that they seem to believe various legal principles of the U.S.A. apply here locally when they do not. It can be nothing but dangerous that some seem to think that the emergency number here is 911, when it is not.
jjcon 6y ago
> I wish there would be a societal awakening in Europe and people would boycott American services. I understand the point but you have to admit it is a little funny you are expressing this point in english while on an american website. I think you should recognize the reverse as well though - countries all over the world are interacting with and influencing americans and america - I know a lot of americans that would prefer to have their pre-globalist culture back as well.
imtringued 6y ago
Instead of worrying about a non issue I would rather fix fundamental flaws in our economic systems. It's not just ruining the lives of young people. It's also ruining the lives of anyone who loses their career in old age but does not receive enough of a pension to retire. Optimizing an entire economy for a minority of savers and wealthy is misguided. A lot of political anger is rooted in very simple economics. The economy is doing increasingly worse for the majority and that fuels extremism. Of course the extremism makes it harder to do the right thing because people believe in unrealistic promises that are never going to work out but they appeal to their own biases. For example. Labor in China is very cheap. If Americans want to compete with China they have to reduce their incomes to match Chinese incomes. One idea is to introduce tariffs to raise the costs of products until they are high enough to pay for American labor. You can do this in theory but why on earth would you do it if China can do it cheaper? If you buy products from China you could still use the saved money to employ American labor. So the actual loss is not that great. The only reason why the tariffs work out is that the labor market is not flexible enough. Low income workers need jobs and the jobs that are there are high skill. Training has to be paid by the workers themselves and the training is not guaranteed to grant a job. Even after acquiring a good college degree there is still a "pseudo training phase" during your first 3 years on the job. Converting low skill workers to high skill workers is too unreliable and expensive so it doesn't happen and it gets worse the older the worker is. If you could figure out a way to do training effectively and inexpensively your country would be significantly better off by buying Chinese products. So what politicians will advocate is tariffs instead of better training. It's short term vs long term thinking.

systemvoltage 6y ago

So you want to idolicize the model of China?

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
I feel like you're being disingenuous. Just because China does something doesn't mean it's a bad idea, it's certainly in line with their economic interests. I think Americans are very aware of what a treacherous situation you put yourself in when you depend on people ideologically opposite to yourself (e.g: oil and manufacturing). But to be clear I'm not advocating for the Chinese model. I think each country should have their own software platforms to preserve their sovereignty and the interests of their citizens but I think they should be regulated to follow common standards to preserve the openness of the internet.
dang 6y ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Aerroon 6y ago

I think the problem is language. English offers a far wider platform to engage people, but it also means that discussions/engagements will be dominated mostly by Americans. Computer use also favors using English. As a result, American influence is kind of inevitable. At the same time though, America also feels the influence from all those other cultures.

TeMPOraL 6y ago
There's also lots of inertia around English. For better or worse, my default heuristic is that if I read something in Polish that isn't hyperlocal (e.g. country news, or research that's only done here), I'm better off looking for a text on it in English. In my experience, it'll universally be better. People doing best-class work usually do it in English, or are republished in English, due to sheer inertia of the economical and scientific dominance of English-speaking world. So I for one would not be very interested in more balkanized Internet, simply because this limits my options to mediocre sources, whereas knowing English and having access to a global platform lets me find better material.
ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
I agree completely, language plays a huge part which is why I'm always advocating for a European lingua franca. I've started writing all the learning resources I produce solely in German and French (whereas I'd always write them in English before for the sake of openness) but it's a drop in the bucket. Honestly I don't know how we're gonna get there.
type0 6y ago
> As a result, American influence is kind of inevitable. Yeah and it's only a matter of time until youtube will start de-platforming mainstrem hungarian vloggers because their values don't align with american Not related to social media but this stuff even happen IRL https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/09/hungarian-opera-asks-white-cast-to-identify-as-african-american-for-porgy-and-bess-product https://www.euronews.com/2019/04/09/hungarian-opera-asks-whi...

dang 6y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25705107 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25705107.

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
Why is that if I may ask? This was in direct response to the point on neo-imperialism and American foreign influence by the parent.
- dang 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't remember. Mostly we do that when a subthread goes too offtopic, especially when it makes the discussion more generic, which is a bad thing on HN [1]. But we might also do it as a pruning mechanism because the thread has become top-heavy and a subthread can stand on its own. We also do it when a comment is not really a reply to its parent, but was posted there for some other reason (usually because the parent was the top comment). I take your word for it that the latter was not the case here. Most likely it was because the subthread was too generic relative to the OP. What makes articles intellectually interesting are the specifics, the curious bits, the diffs [2] between it and comparable things. In the present case that was certainly the Ugandan aspect, and the theme of American cultural domination vis-a-vis Europe is a change of subject relative to that. Changes of subject can be fine if they're unpredictable and whimsical, but definitely not when they're a move towards the generic. Generic topics are like large planets with powerful gravitational fields—or even black holes—the default trend is for all threads to get sucked towards them, and that leads to a much less interesting place. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=diffs%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
    Oh it's an interesting pattern, thanks for the explanation!

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

I will rather make up my own mind and decide what is the appropriate course of action and truth on each issue than swear fealty to a “culture” and observe it's tenants blindly, whatever they be. Now, what I have noticed is that some have consumed so much U.S.A. media that they seem to believe various legal principles of the U.S.A. apply here locally when they do not. It can be nothing but dangerous that some seem to think that the emergency number here is 911, when it is not.

jjcon 6y ago

> I wish there would be a societal awakening in Europe and people would boycott American services. I understand the point but you have to admit it is a little funny you are expressing this point in english while on an american website. I think you should recognize the reverse as well though - countries all over the world are interacting with and influencing americans and america - I know a lot of americans that would prefer to have their pre-globalist culture back as well.

imtringued 6y ago

Instead of worrying about a non issue I would rather fix fundamental flaws in our economic systems. It's not just ruining the lives of young people. It's also ruining the lives of anyone who loses their career in old age but does not receive enough of a pension to retire. Optimizing an entire economy for a minority of savers and wealthy is misguided. A lot of political anger is rooted in very simple economics. The economy is doing increasingly worse for the majority and that fuels extremism. Of course the extremism makes it harder to do the right thing because people believe in unrealistic promises that are never going to work out but they appeal to their own biases. For example. Labor in China is very cheap. If Americans want to compete with China they have to reduce their incomes to match Chinese incomes. One idea is to introduce tariffs to raise the costs of products until they are high enough to pay for American labor. You can do this in theory but why on earth would you do it if China can do it cheaper? If you buy products from China you could still use the saved money to employ American labor. So the actual loss is not that great. The only reason why the tariffs work out is that the labor market is not flexible enough. Low income workers need jobs and the jobs that are there are high skill. Training has to be paid by the workers themselves and the training is not guaranteed to grant a job. Even after acquiring a good college degree there is still a "pseudo training phase" during your first 3 years on the job. Converting low skill workers to high skill workers is too unreliable and expensive so it doesn't happen and it gets worse the older the worker is. If you could figure out a way to do training effectively and inexpensively your country would be significantly better off by buying Chinese products. So what politicians will advocate is tariffs instead of better training. It's short term vs long term thinking.