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Pesticide believed to kill bees is authorised for use in England
- g8oz 6y agoFrom the Pollinator Network @ Cornell: https://pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/threats-wild-and-managed-bees/pesticides/neonicotinoids/ https://pollinator.cals.cornell.edu/threats-wild-and-managed...
- emayljames 6y agoI don't trust the current UK government one shred, but there is a very small chance it is just for this emergency use to stop that sugar beet virus.
- dwardu 6y agoWas there ever a government that was really that trustworthy? We’ve been losing our freedoms for a while now.
- mnd999 6y agoNot sure everyone would agree with that the main job of government is to grant you more freedom. Careful regulation is just as important imho.
- dwardu 6y agoYes, for America there's the patriot act which removed your freedoms for safety. Even right now with corona, as controversial as it sounds, it is the question of freedom vs security. Europe's sentiment is they want more security and are happy to give away their freedoms without a thought. Then you realise how important your freedom was to you when it's gone.
- Pfhreak 6y agoI'm not educated in this area, but could they not use other methods to stem the reach of the virus? For example, are there other crops they could grow for a time until the viral amounts dropped lower?
- toiletfuneral 6y agoThe extinction of honey bees is just a massive opportunity for a entrepreneurs. Honestly why do we even fake that we give a shit anymore? Capital won, nature lost. Just turn the entire planet into Shenzhen and be done with it.
- quattrofan 6y agoSo let me get this right 18m is more than the cost to us from the loss of bees? Really?!
- Jweb_Guru 6y agoExternalities are not priced correctly by the market.
- Sudophysics 6y agoA society of advanced apes with a penchant for destroying their environment decides that a species that is necessary for their survival is better off dead because they don't care for a weird thing called science.
- CameronNemo 6y agoI don't think the UK wants the bee species dead. I think we/they just take for granted the resiliency of the environment we live in.
- martamorena2 6y agoThat, or they reason that if they live in a house that's burning down, adding another flame won't make a difference.
- mytailorisrich 6y agoMore like: I don't think the UK wants the bee species dead. I think business interests just want money now more.
- beaconstudios 6y agoArguably it's the success of science that has allowed us to destroy our environment. Back in the middle ages we didn't have much leverage over nature. The problem we have is that there's lots of us and we're pretty insatiable.
- 7952 6y agoWe had lots of leverage over nature in the middle ages. By that point Britain had little woodland left, and what remained was often managed. People were digging ditches and creating hedgerow as a boundary. Larger mammals like bear, lynx, and wolf were extinct or on their way out. Large birds of prey were aggressively persecuted. There was even land reclamation as far back as Roman times. Humans have been dominant over wildlife in Britain for a long time. There are probably American zip codes areas that have more untouched landscape than the whole of britain.
- LatteLazy 6y agoThe pesticide was banned by the EU 2 years back. Is there any evidence bees numbers have resurged? I'd be happy to keep this banned, I'm just asking...
- oxfordmale 6y agoFrom the link below, at least the effect on bumble bees is clear cut: The impact of neonicotinoids on bumble bees is more in agreement. The majority of lab, semi field, and field studies report negative implications of neonicotinoids. Of four field studies investigating bumble bees [23-26], three report such effects [23, 25, 26]. These bees are about 2-3 times more sensitive than honey bees to neonicotinoid toxicity [13, 27, 28].
- riffraff 6y agoBut the question here was different: did the ban produce any measurable effect in the two years since it has been established? For example, we may have replaced neonicotinoids with massive use of something else, causing even worse problems. My guess would be that we just don't have the data, but it's an interesting question.
- AdrianB1 6y agoIt is not the only factor impacting the bees and the impact is not even quantified, so it is very hard to measure the results in uncontrolled environment (in nature). I think the bee populations are still in danger, ban or not.
- Shorel 6y agoThis is also a consequence of Brexit and the UK aligning with the USA corporate interests.
- tw04 6y agoAre they though? Bayer bought Monsanto a couple years ago. They seem to be aligning themselves with German corporate interest on this one. There doesn't appear to be a US source of the chemical anymore: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-07/bayer-closes-monsanto-deal-to-cap-63-billion-transformation https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-07/bayer-clo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid
- mistrial9 6y agoBayer bought Monsanto along with extensive internal discussions with legal on the liabilities facing Monsanto with RoundUp and these adverse findings on some pesticides. Yet, there are human beings who will use stealth and obscurity to sign these approvals and take the money home. Those who profit are not those who are harmed -- is this not crystal clear that politics must resolve toxic (and highly profitable) chemical industry practices ?
- bearbin 6y agoHardly, similar emergency authorizations have been applied in other EU countries, in actuality these exemptions were applied last year and the UK is late in doing this... Not sure how the EU really comes into this at all. https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/news/pesticides-efsa-examine-emergency-use-neonicotinoids https://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/news/pesticides-efsa-examine-e...
- iguy 6y agoIt comes in because the subheading and first paragraph are carefully written to capture brexit-inflamed eyeballs. They do later tell you "11 countries to allow emergency use of the product" and "The UK ... joined EU countries including Belgium, Denmark and Spain in signing emergency authorisations", but easy to miss on the first skim. That doesn't of course imply that it's a great idea. A 25% decline in £18m worth of sugar doesn't really sound like a big enough deal, but maybe localized short-term use of chemical weapons also isn't such a big deal, I don't know?
- saiya-jin 6y agoI've caught a few news here & there since Brexit started coming about GB receding from say higher foot safety/quality standards (because of US pressure in that specific article), and then some pesticides articles including this. Is this just a random noise or does generally EU has higher standard for environment & food safety compared to where UK is heading?
- ricardonunez 6y agoThe EU does have higher standards and have more regulation than the US. The UK will set their own now, which they can lighten up.
- BlueTemplar 6y agoExcept in this case some of the other EU countries have allowed the same (?) already a year ago.
- kcartlidge 6y agoNothing to do with Brexit. Belgium and the Netherlands are doing the same, along with many other countries. I don't agree with it (modern sugar use is evil), but it has nothing to do with lowering food and safety standards as, as mentioned, some EU countries have done the same.
- icefrakker 6y agoNice to see the UK get its head out of its rear - sugar production is the future of the UK's economy. The 3000 sugar beet growers in the nation are to the 21st century economy what textile mills were to the 18th century economy.
- tengbretson 6y agoThis is highly concerning news.
- jcampbell1 6y agoNeonics were blamed for colony collapse disorder even though there was zero evidence and bees that die due to pesticides are found dead on the ground below the hive. IIRC, CCD had a migration pattern that was exactly what one would expect from the spread of a disease or parasite and had zero in common with an environmental toxin. The title is accurate depending on what “believed” means. I suppose I gave my kid vaccines believed to cause autism.
- armedpacifist 6y agoCCD doesn't have one single cause. Due to a plethora of factors (monocultures, neonics and other -icides, irresponsible use of antibiotics, ignorant beekeeping methods, ... ) the bee population is weakened, clearing the way for parasites like the varroa mite to strike the final blow.
- 40four 6y agoI’m not really sure yet how I feel about this particular case of temporary emergency authorization (which is omitted from the title). I get the chemicals were banned for good reason, but in this case they are trying to prevent a whole commodity sector from collapsing. Tough situation to be in. The larger issue to me is how warped the debate around saving bees and pollinators has become. I get very frustrated every time I read articles on this topic, because I feel like the way it is presented is very misleading. It’s always presented in a way that makes it seem like these large farms are dependent on ‘wild’ bees and pollinators. They make it sound like the only thing that matters is our use of evil chemicals, and if you support their use the. You are a piece of shit who doesn’t care about the earth. In reality, large commercial mono crop farms depend on bee keepers who provide their hives as a service. Their bees are the ones dying en mass, not wild bee populations. You’re not going to find many wild bees or anything else for that matter in these areas, the biome doesn’t support them. Mono-croping as a practice is an environmental disaster just by it’s nature. There is no biodiversity by design. This in turn makes pests and diseases that harm the beehives brought in by beekeepers that much worse. Then of course, add large scale chemical application on top of that and we’ve created a huge mess. So really, when you see these articles claiming huge percentages of bees dying, they aren’t wrong. They are just being purposefully misleading about which bees are dying. It is the bees brought in by the “Beekeepers as a service”, not wild bees. As bad as that is, there is the good thing to remember. Those are ‘farmed’ bees. We can always farm more bees. That might be a hard challenge for the beekeepers, but it’s not the same thing as all the wild bees in the world dying and everyone starving to death. We need to stop confusing the topic with wild bees.
- lwhi 6y agoBoth things could be true. Surely investment in monocrops is affecting wild bee population? If the pesticides affect farmed bee populations, why shouldn't they in term have the same affect on wild bees? Isn't their physiology going to be the same (or very similar)? I don't understand what you're trying to say?
- 40four 6y agoI think you're right, both things are certainly true. I might have gotten a little lost in my angry rant, but what I'm trying to say is many of these articles are not presenting the subject in a fair manner. If the pesticides harm the beekeepers bees, they are certainly hurting wild bees too. Collateral damage from farms is real, but the percentage of wild honey bees that come in contact with these farms has to be a small percentage. The fact that these farms destroyed the bee's (and every other animal's) natural habitat in the first place is never mentioned. It's as if they want these farms to continue to operate, but without any chemicals, which in reality is impossible. It would be best if we got all our food from small, diverse, organic farms but that's unfortunately not the system we have. I wish it was. Also, not once ever have I seen the history of honey bees explained. Everyone wants to cry over the 'wild' honey bees dying, meanwhile nobody mentions that they are not native to America. They were brought over by European settlers. So any 'wild' populations we have in America were artificially introduced, but they want everyone to think that it's natural and they have always been here. And they want you to think that all farms, no matter the size or type rely on 'wild' honey bees to pollinate their fields. It's unfortunate, but it's just not how out system works in the United States. So I'm trying to say I'm frustrated explaining this over and over to people that have been mislead by certain groups who only care about pushing their own agenda. If we want have a real conversation about bees, then you can't leave out the history of how they came here, and you can't leave out the large role commercial beekeepers play in our agricultural system.
- NikolaeVarius 6y agoThe article title purposefully leaves out the "emergency use authorization" part in order to drum up anger. I think that part should be put in. 11 other countries have joined in the emergency authorization so its not just a UK thing. This is not a pro/against post about Thiamethoxam. The studies seem a bit divided, and the UK banned out of abundance of caution from a European Food Safety Authority study, versus a larger global study.
- Chris2048 6y agoI saw the title and immediately thought "is this gonna be BS". Turns out yes.
- lwhi 6y agoHow's it been shown to be BS?
- Chris2048 6y agoIt fails to mention the authorizations are "Emergency authorizations", thereby omitting relevant information to make the title more click-baity
- ashtonkem 6y agoEmergency authorizations often end up being permanent. Claiming that the entire premise of the article doesn’t hold water because it’s an “emergency” authorization is to completely ignore how emergency authorizations work in practice.
- Chris2048 6y agoI didn't claim anything about the premise of the article, I commented on the content of the title/headline.
- lwhi 6y agoRead the article. It doesn't.
- okaybsdk 6y agoEngland already can't get over with new strain of covid, they will soon be under crisis of unprecedented hurdles, let's hope for the best of bees.
- billiob 6y agoIt is like in France, there shouldn't be that much of an issue. Iirc, the use of use of neonicotinoid on beet is with coated seeds. Then, the beets are harvested way before they even produce a flower thus the bees will not pollinate such infected plants.
- armedpacifist 6y agoThis isn't about neonics specifically, it's about a range of pesticides that are being used. Again, it doesn't affect only honey bees. Honey bees exist in an ecosystem of pollinators of which they contrive only a small percentage. There's also the fact that neonics ao. are persistent for at least a couple of years, affecting the crops after the one for which they were originally intended. That is why along with temporarily allowing certain pesticides, certain crops are being prohibited or enforced as a follow up crop. It gets complicated pretty quickly. Laissez-faire indeed...
- stinos 6y agoThere could be other things at play though than pollinating or not. I know the coating was presented as better than just spraying around etc, and is is, but it's not like it ends there. Neonicotinoids are water soluble so some of it will end up in the soil and from theere might leak to surface water. Effects of that are all known yet, but it's not all looking good. Not saying there are problems for bees, just that seed coating could well be more than 'not much of an issue'.
- pkaye 6y agoWhy can't they use a non neonicotinoid pesticide instead?
- bluGill 6y agoCan you name one that works and isn't worse?
- pkaye 6y agoIt was a rhetorical question. These countries where pushing for all these pesticide bans without identifying safer alternatives. Perhaps instead of banning it, maybe limited use for specific cases while promoting the research of alternatives.
- bluGill 6y agoResearch has been happening for years. Little new has been discovered, not even leads.
- turbinerneiter 6y agoHere is what I learned about this particular pesticide, from my cousin, who is a farmer who also sometimes plants sugar beets. 1. This particular pesticide comes in the form of a pill, which is planted with the seed. 2. It is very targeted on a particular pest (german name is Rübenrüsselkäfer). 3. Without it, the whole field will be lost. 4. The replacement is a conventional broad band pesticide. It kills everything. He said that after using it once, when he walked the field he saw all kinds of dead bugs and worms - which are kinda important for the soil as well. He said "farming like this makes no sense" and stopped growing sugar beets. The real killer however is this: 5. Sugar beets do not blossom.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- to11mtm 6y agoSoo.... Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding this. If they don't blossom, Bees will not really pick them up from the sugar beets. i.e. this isn't like using the pesticide on a flowering plant where the bees will be picking up the chemical. Interesting? It still seems there would still be some overall impact on groundwater to some level, as well as risks if the crop is planted in rotation with a different crop.
- turbinerneiter 6y agoExactly. I have no clue whether or not, and how, the bees will pick up this poison from this application. Maybe it gets diluted and never harms bees. Maybe it still gets out and to them. I tried to look for papers and the first two I found came to opposing conclusions and both of them looked sketchy af.
- nerdponx 6y agoThanks for this insight.
- hinkley 6y ago> 5. Sugar beets do not blossom. Which is fine, as long as no weeds or mushrooms grow in that entire field, and a freak rain doesn’t rinse it into the drainage ditches where weeds and mushrooms absolutely grow, in abundance.
- shaolinspirit 6y agowow, this was my favourite black mirror episode!
- Thorrez 6y agoI don't understand why this article is mentioning Brexit as if it's related. It says 11 countries have done this, including EU countries Belgium, Denmark and Spain. Therefore this appears unrelated to Brexit.
- fiftyacorn 6y agoI read it was the sugar industry driving this, and it's worth noting the first brexit minister was an executive for one of the sugar companies before he became a mp
- dghughes 6y agoI recall a science show (Quirks & Quarks) here in Canada explaining this. It's not just that neonicotinoids cause harm to bees but the bees actually prefer it. Bees go out of their way to collect pollen on plants with neonicotinoid pesticides on them.
- zzzz111 6y agoDon't all pesticides kill bees?
- grzm 6y agoNo. Likely there are better references, but here's one: https://www.perfectbee.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides-what-is-safe https://www.perfectbee.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides-what-is-...
- baud147258 6y agoThis reminds me of a discussion on pesticides I had with a friend working for the FNSEA (a French agricultural union) and one of his point that, if a pesticide is banned, farmers will just use another (which might more or less efficient, more or less targeted...)
- jimnotgym 6y agoThis is even more perverse than it seems. In many parts of the UK there is no sugar industry but sugar beet are still being grown...to feed biodigesters, to generate electricity to help meet green energy targets. Subsidised of course. Subsidised to save the environment by destroying the environment.
- eucryphia 6y agoI went to buy a fruit fly spray at my local nursery and the sales rep said it’s not stocked because it kills bees. He claimed that was why there were so few bees around. I replied that it was more likely because the local council banned amateur bee keeper’s backyard hives. I’ve tried a replacement which is about 80% as effective but has to be sprayed after every rain shower or every fortnight whichever comes first.
- OnlyRepliesToBS 6y agogreed vs nature
- ShaVerZ 6y agoEmergency use, I assume is acceptable but we all know that this is just the start and that emergency window will get larger and larger and we will see no end unfortunately.