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Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

149 points by eternalban 6y ago

jswizzy 6y ago
I imagine Taiwan will be next especially since Biden is a Chinese puppet.
- heraclius 6y ago
  Given the HKHRDA passed the Senate unanimously and in the House by 417-1,⁰ bipartisan consensus even ignoring your entirely unsourced claim that Biden is a Chinese puppet means that there is some will to resist this prospect. The problem in the US is not intent but competence. Biden can be relied upon to not e.g. flip-flop as Trump did on North Korea or petulantly ask what the point of a long-term alliance is, and therefore is much better for those countries in Asia who want to resist China but want their major ally not to behave so erratically. In fact, Trump seemed to think of China as a counterparty with whom a ‘deal’ could be struck for his own political purposes:¹ he had no actual ideological objection to e.g. the camps in Xinjiang; Biden, like most members of the blob, at least pretends (probably even to himself!) to consistently and resolutely oppose that sort of thing (the obvious examples of e.g. support for Saudi Arabia notwithstanding), which means far more consistency. And consistency is good for alliances. 0. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1838 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/183... 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/us/politics/trump-uighurs-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/us/politics/trump-uighurs...
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  I don't entirely trust Biden when it comes to this, however, you can't really compare Taiwan to Hong Kong. To take Taiwan, China needs to annex an entirely separate country. They can do that through soft influence (pretty sure everyone agrees that's totally a failure), through economic means (Taiwan has been diversifying it's economy so not sure how great that option is anymore), or militarily. Even if other countries were to stay out of it, it would extremely risky for China. They very well could fail. Comparing Taiwan to Hong Kong in this instance really is kind of ludicrous.
  - thedudeabides5 6y ago
    It may be risky for China, but if you actually read Chinese media (or even the halfway house that is the SCMP), you can see to them it's not a question of IF but WHEN... https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/article/2174705/why-china-will-wait-until-2030-take-back https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/a...
    - CogitoCogito 6y ago
      I know and it's scary. That doesn't mean an attack will actually happen though. And even if it does happen, that doesn't mean it'll succeed.
      - thepasswordis 6y ago
        What downside does China have? Nobody will stand up and do anything to stop them.
        CogitoCogito 6y ago
        What downsides? Even ignoring the economic and political fallout (which could leave them entirely isolated on the world stage), they could _fail_ in their attempted invasion even if only going head to head with Taiwan. The result after both a successful and an unsuccessful invasion could very well be a collapse of the PRC. They certainly understand this. That's way they've simply used the threats as a tool of internal propaganda. They may one day go for it, but it is very far from risk-free.
echelon 6y ago
If we care at all about our future and the generations to come, we must oppose China at all costs. They extinguish dissent. Not just locally, but abroad. They censor our domestic companies that want a foothold in their market (Disney, Blizzard, the NBA, Apple). We need to stop taking their money, and we need to move manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, and Africa. Strategic manufacturing (medical and tech) needs to be re-onshored. They're flexing their muscles because they know they will be on top. If we continue the status quo, it's only a matter of time. We will wind up just like them if we continue to let this cancer grow. It will be incredibly painful, but we need to stop importing. Now. We can play hard. Militarize Japan. Strengthen our partnership with Vietnam. Offer US statehood to Taiwan and build a base there. Dispute the South China Sea takeover, start building oil rigs, and police the area. Be a better ally to Europe and our democratic partners. edit: Here come the anti-US downvotes. We're overrun with the enemies of democracy. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal of conservative - we have to unite to protect our precious, priceless freedom.
- rasengan 6y ago
  To be clear, China isn’t censoring these companies - the traitors running the companies are censoring them on behalf of China.
  - Glide 6y ago
    We have met the enemy and it is us.
- seeseepeesuxx 6y ago
  Too late
- patagonia 6y ago
  I don't see this going down the path of "we wind up just like them". I see this going down the path of WW III. What we need is another cold war. Any hot war will be unimaginably costly and drawn out.
  - 6y ago
claydavisss 6y ago
hongkongwatch banned from Twitter in 5,4,3...
Arubis 6y ago
This timing is unsurprising; it’s clear there’s nobody at the wheel in the U.S. for a couple of weeks, lowering the odds of reprisal during this window of opportunity. What would shift this? Does the E.U. have sufficient clout?
- justinzollars 6y ago
  Someone will "be at the wheel" in a few days. And you will not see China back down. Why? China will soon overtake the United States - and not just by a little - by a lot.
  - wwwwwwwww 6y ago
    China annexed the Scarborough Shoal 8 years ago. And the guy who will "be at the wheel" soon did nothing back then (despite of there being a defense treaty). These mass arrests are just China getting ready to annex Hong Kong as soon as "the wheel" is in the hand of the guy they already know will no nothing.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  "Does the E.U. have sufficient clout?" Germany / Merkel (because she is the one who determines German foreign policy de facto) will not do anything that is against German business interests. As of 2021, Germany is neither left, nor right, neither liberal, nor conservative - on the international scene, it is a purely business-oriented nation.
- vanilla-almond 6y ago
  The EU has clout but is unlikely to do anything that might threaten investment ties between China and the EU. Investment (and the promise of jobs) takes priority over human rights concerns: https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-drive-for-eu-china-deal-draws-criticism-from-other-eu-countries/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-drive-for-eu-china-...
mantap 6y ago
The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.
- orange_tee 6y ago
  China is strong and the UK is weak. The treaty is not valid anymore. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
  - eloisius 6y ago
    The terms of the treaty state anything about the relative strength of each nation?
    - wwwwwwwww 6y ago
      I tell you a secret: The CCP doesn't actually care about the rules of international law. Who is gonna stop them? Nobody.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        This is the problem restated, yes, and that’s what we’re talking about.
      - orange_tee 6y ago
        Neither does the US or the UK or any other country that actually matters. And btw there is no such thing as international law.
        sbdisns 6y ago
        I mean, you’re right, however most constitutions, including the US, put treaty obligations as equal in force of law.
    - sbdisns 6y ago
ndiscussion 6y ago
And that's a good thing! Speech can be dangerous and freedom from speech does not mean freedom from consequences! China is not subject to the first amendment, you don't like it, make your own country!
wwwwwwwww 6y ago
When the CCP invaded and annexed the Scarborough Shoal in 2012, the Obama administration ignored the defense treaty between the US and the Philippines and allowed the CCP to keep the land. So now that Biden is practically in power, it makes sense that the CCP innitiates the process for the annexation of Hong Kong in the comming month. My guess is that, before the end of the Biden term, the CCP will have made a move on Taiwan as well. And the West will not do anything about it other than "a strongly worded letter".
Leary 6y ago
These Hong Kong supporters are a true inspiration for Americans. Their occupation of the legislature shows what a free people could do against oppression
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  I remember seeing them waving American flags during protests, presumably as a reference to liberty. I thought, “I wish we lived up to their perceptions of us.”
  - loceng 6y ago
    Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.
    - dragonsh 6y ago
      Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 times worse than HK. Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide in Afganistan and killed scores of kids and unarmed civilians. There is hardly any ground left for them to teach others. No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP [1]. May be work there for a while and than you can see why Korea, Japan and Greater China did so well not others in growth. It’s easy to talk rhetoric, but hard to do hard work to bring about transformation. [1] https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/
      - jcytong 6y ago
ceilingcorner 6y ago
The situation in HK is depressing, especially when Western corporations and politicians seem to admire the CCP more than democratic activists. What can an individual do to help Hong Kongers? Any suggestions?
- baybal2 6y ago
  > What can an individual do to help Hong Kongers? Any suggestions? How many firearms, and ammo you can buy, and how many politicians you can lobby? Even if you are a single digit millionaire, that's just enough to arm, and feed no more than a single lightly armed battalion for a few months. I see other option than a military solution, either limited, or not. Even if any Western power decide on half hearted piecemeal solution like smuggling weapons into to China, and rile up the populace, it will only bleed China a very, very little. China easily endure waging a civil war the size of Syrian, and continue growing economically like if nothing happened.
  - knolax 6y ago
    > How many firearms, and ammo you can buy How would you feel if I advocated for arming communist rebels in your country? It's disturbing how normalized calls to violence are on HN when the violence happens far away.
    - koonsolo 6y ago
      US communist rebels can already go to a store and buy some assault rifles :D. So what is your point? Maybe the point is that armed people in a democracy is not that big of a deal, but armed people in a dictatorship can be a real problem.
      - knolax 6y ago
        > Maybe the point is that armed people in a democracy is not that big of a deal, but armed people in a dictatorship can be a real problem. You can scroll down a couple posts to see people being outraged that those who stormed the Capitol had weapons and bombs with them. I wonder how cavalier your attitude remains when the guns are pointed at your face. Then again second amendment fanatics like you are already totally fine with school shootings.
kombucha111 6y ago
Donald Trump, various world powers and the US should be ashamed at their refusal to stand up for Hong Kong. So sad.
Grimm1 6y ago
The US should be forming a closer relationship with India, to work with them strategically to increase their domestic investment and try to reach some type of parity, economically, with China as a ballast. We, the US, simply don't have the literal bodies regardless of our economy.
- echelon 6y ago
  > We, the US, simply don't have the literal bodies regardless of our economy. Open immigration, create tax incentives for raising children, and start minting new US states. We could close the gap with China and India if we prioritized it. I think it's of strategic importance that we do.
  - Grimm1 6y ago
    I think your idea is another perfectly valid alternative. I just haven't seen the appetite for it. I know the recent immigration changes were rolled back, but if the crazy requirements instituted a few months ago says anything it's that like 40% of our country are super against the immigration route.
thepasswordis 6y ago
How do people seriously not see the parallels here? The way that the CCP, and most Chinese people, view the protestors in Hong Kong, is exactly the same way that the US Government, as well as most of the US, view the protestors in DC on Weds. HKers say they want democracy and fair elections. CCP and most Chinese think that's bullshit. MAGAs say they want democracy and fair elections. Most of the US Gov as well as most US citizens think that's bullshit. CCP wants to ban "disharmonious activity" from social media. HKers think that's a front for suppression of dissent. US Gov wants to ban "hate speech" from social media. MAGA think that's just a front for suppression of dissent. CCP runs pseudo-secret reeducation camps in Xianjian. US runs pseudo-secret detention camps at Guantanamo Bay. Etc. etc. etc.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > The way that the CCP, and most Chinese people, view the protestors in Hong Kong, is exactly the same way that the US Government, as well as most of the US, view the protestors in DC on Weds. We're not counting the President of the United States as part of the US Government?
  - thepasswordis 6y ago
    Is this a joke? Trump is the most anti-CCP president in the last 40 years. Please watch this Pompeo speech if you want to know how the Trump admin feels towards China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7azj-t0gtPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7azj-t0gtPM
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      The poster alleges the US Government opposes the DC protesters in the same way the CCP opposes the HK ones. That requires not considering the US President to be part of the US Government for it to be true.
      - thepasswordis 6y ago
        The US president has said that he will use the full power of the government to track down and prosecute everybody involved in the capitol riot. I'd link you to the video of him saying this, but Twitter deleted it so I can't.
tinza123 6y ago
Enough of these political posts on HN. If I want to see them I would head to r/news or NY Times. Strongly opinionated conclusion supported by piecemeal information aiming to inspire meaningless online battles with strangers? No thanks.
- minikites 6y ago
  Everything is political. If you don't think so, it means you're protected by at least some kind of privilege. Rather than denying that, think about what advantages you have in your life that insulate you from the struggles of other people.
  - z5h 6y ago
    Everything is A LITTLE BIT political. And we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect. My pancake breakfast has ties to unions, lobbyists, international trade. Guess what, I’m just going to eat my pancakes.
    - loceng 6y ago
      "Everything is A LITTLE BIT political." This is called minimizing/minimization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology) https://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/23/minimization-manipulation-tactic/ https://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/23/minimiza...
      - bobthebuilders 6y ago
        You are just doing maximization instead.
    - minikites 6y ago
      >we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect This is a perfect illustration of the privilege I was talking about, thank you.
justinzollars 6y ago
Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in SF is against colonialism. Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? Our country [The United States] is literally falling apart. Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China is internally focused, and will solve its internal problems in Hong Kong. Whether you like it or not. It's simply how they operate considering their 5,000 year history.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  > Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in San Francisco is against colonialism. > Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? > Our country is literally falling apart. > Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China is internally focused, and will solve its internal problems in Hong Kong. Whether you like it or not. It's simply how they operate considering their 5,000 year history. China itself was built by imperialist and colonial actions. If you truly are against such actions (or if you support treaty agreements) you would support Hong Kong citizens in their attempt to stay some sort of separate entity. People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. I'm not personally arguing that China should break apart, but the "5,000 year history of China" somehow implying that they need to take over everything in the area is just a made-up historical argument to support their current imperialism. Maybe we can't go back and give Hong Kongers a voice, but we shouldn't pretend like their fate was somehow natural or just. And we shouldn't watch them go down now without a care.
  - knolax 6y ago
    > People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. More drivel by someone who likely can't speak or read any dialect of Chinese and has no idea of history. Rome has been dead for millennia. The last emperor of the Qing dynasty died in 1967. The Romance "languages" are only considered languages because the Latin alphabet has no way of dealing with natural drifts in pronounciation. Most differences between them are superficial at best. The language spoken in Northern Italy is functionally identical to that spoken in Southern France. It is only because every province sized country in Europe insists on creating their own orthography that they seem different. If you don't believe me just look at Catalan or Cantonese Wikipedia. Despite best efforts by the people writing the articles, they still appear almost identical to standard Spanish and Chinese. Even if we take your claims about language for granted, The city that Cantonese is named after is on the Mainland, and mainlander Cantonese far outnumber those in Hong Kong. By your logic an independent Hong Kong is as natural as Brooklyn being independent from the rest of New York. EDIT: You don't have a point and the claims you've made are egregiously wrong. Here's a hint, 1967 >>>>> 395. EDIT In Response because of comment limits: > My first point is that Hong Kongers of course should have had the right to vote on the handover back to China. They were not offered that and we can't go back. In the 60s the Hong Kongese held mass riots against the British in support of reunification.[0] Linguistically and culturally the Hong Kongese they are no different from their fellow Cantonese in the mainland. Most of its residents are only a couple generations removed from the Mainland. This tactic of constantly trying to make some arbitrary strategic region of China seem like it's some cultural enclave is as ridiculous as claiming that maybe "San Francisco isn't preordained to be American". If you think there's some drastic cultural difference the burden of proof lies on you. > You literally didn't contradict anything I said linguistically or culturally (i.e. that China is _not_ some singular linguistical/cultural area), which was my point. So no I _do_ have a point and you yourself agreed with it. I am making the point that the linguistic differences between Romance language speakers are exaggerated and nonexistent in practice, not agreeing with you that the linguistic differences in China are significant. > You made another point that the fact that China was unified more recently as an empire than Rome means they are somehow more legitimate. You acted as if China was some newly formed entity, and used it to imply that it isn't natural for it to be unified. The amount of times China has been unified far outstrips the amount of times when a single city that's not even self sufficient infrastructurally has been independent. > I’ve never heard someone claim otherwise. How many Hong Kongese and Cantonese have you met? I doubt the number is more than a dozen. You keep doing this unbacked argument that "maybe X isn't shouldn't be a part of China because maybe they have a different culture" without any evidence they have a different culture, likely because you've never encountered their culture in person. The burden of proof lies on you when X has been a part of China for millennial longer than it's ever been indepedent. You then act as if the Hong Kongese had no say during the handover when they were clearly much more violently in favor of reunification at the time. The scale of the present protests are not nearly as great as the ones in '67. > So you agree that there is no natural cultural-linguestic reason for China to be unified in its current form Jesus Christ how many times do I have to point out that China is linguistically unified and that the Hong Kongese have no significant cultural differences to justify independence. The burden of proof lies on you to disprove me. Countries don't stay unified for centuries without a linguistic and cultural common ground. > I can't follow this anymore. Post replies like a normal person and I'll respond. If not, okay that's fine too. I think we've mostly explained our respective beliefs And I can't reply to your comments because of rate limiting on HackerNews. No need to be extremely passive aggressive about it. I don't think you've understood my beliefs and I don't think you intend to. This entire time you've been putting words in ny mouth. > Anyway I'll stop this discussion here so that you can focus on all the other posts you're apparently making. Maybe the extra bandwidth will allow you to post normally in the other conversations at least. There's no way you don't have enough self awareness to notice how passive aggressive this sounds. Besides, you've posted 6 comments in the past hour. I posted 7 in the past day. Pointing out that the Hong Kongese speak the second most common dialect in China, are only a couple generations removed from the mainland, spent most of their history not seeking independece from the rest of China, and obviously felt enough kinship to the rest of China to violently attempt reunification is enough justification that they are reasonably culturally unified with the rest of the country. You, on the other hand have provided no evidence to the contrary, and seem outraged that I even ask you for proof. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots
anovikov 6y ago
Also, may i make a devilish point: why are you concerned? Don't we the free people win by making the "free country" status more of an elite thing? If we are sure that dictatorship brings misery and eventual failure, we should be happy about what's going on. They will be worse off and we, better.
snicksnak 6y ago
The whole world watches during this annexation of Hongkong. Worse, the UN just made CCP a member of their Human Rights Council until 2023. Meanwhile they keep expanding their concentration camps for Uyghurs and even bragging how they decreased Uyghur birthrates by applying "family planning policies". And again, the whole world watches, this all brings me to the realization that the slogan "Never Again", is just that, a slogan, politicians and people in general throw around to signal. It really disgusts me.
psim1 6y ago
Hong Kong is not China. It only takes a few weeks in each place to see. Was it wrong of the British to take HK as a colony at one time? Yes in the same way it was wrong of them to take eastern North America. Hong Kong—culturally, philosophically, politically, spiritually, virtually in every way—is not China and should not simply be “given” over to them by the rest of the world.
joreilly 6y ago
If anyone is looking for a relatively digestible book on China, I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. While he does tend to meander at some points, it gives a solid introduction to China's recent history (arrival of the British, the civil war, up to around 2010) and interactions with the United States throughout. At least, to someone who initially had very little knowledge on the topic. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9328314-on-china https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9328314-on-china
- snomad 6y ago
  Highly recommend this one https://www.amazon.com/Burying-Mao-Richard-Baum/dp/0691036373 https://www.amazon.com/Burying-Mao-Richard-Baum/dp/069103637... Here's the author's obituary, it does a nice job summarizing his expertise on the subject https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-richard-baum-20121220-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-richard-baum-...
  - joreilly 6y ago
    Thanks for the recommendation! I feel as though On China sacrificed detail to allow for greater scope, and it left me wanting for more information on certain periods.
- baybal2 6y ago
  > I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. I will wholeheartedly not recommend anybody to read Kissinger. The man has completely imaginary idea of what China is, and even more so about its leadership. I can only lament at the fact that now multiple generations of Western politicians, and diplomats were grown upon his coolaid.
  - joreilly 6y ago
    I'm assuming you're referring to how softly he tip-toes around events like the Tiananmen Square Protests or the massive famine during the Great Leap Forward? If so, I certainly agree with you and many of the Goodreads reviewers in that his approach could be considered overly diplomatic. If anything, I think knowing the weaknesses of the book in advance is advantageous for weighing what Kissinger says throughout. If not, I'm curious to know your thoughts. My knowledge on China is limited to discussions with family friends who have some experience through their work, and this book, so I would not be surprised to know that I am severely lacking.
kuringa 6y ago
China must start to send these crocks to Gobi. Bunch of US backed snowflakes. By the way, when HN will start to post about US violations everywhere?

149 points by eternalban 6y ago

jswizzy 6y ago

I imagine Taiwan will be next especially since Biden is a Chinese puppet.

heraclius 6y ago
Given the HKHRDA passed the Senate unanimously and in the House by 417-1,⁰ bipartisan consensus even ignoring your entirely unsourced claim that Biden is a Chinese puppet means that there is some will to resist this prospect. The problem in the US is not intent but competence. Biden can be relied upon to not e.g. flip-flop as Trump did on North Korea or petulantly ask what the point of a long-term alliance is, and therefore is much better for those countries in Asia who want to resist China but want their major ally not to behave so erratically. In fact, Trump seemed to think of China as a counterparty with whom a ‘deal’ could be struck for his own political purposes:¹ he had no actual ideological objection to e.g. the camps in Xinjiang; Biden, like most members of the blob, at least pretends (probably even to himself!) to consistently and resolutely oppose that sort of thing (the obvious examples of e.g. support for Saudi Arabia notwithstanding), which means far more consistency. And consistency is good for alliances. 0. https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1838 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/183... 1. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/us/politics/trump-uighurs-china-trade.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/21/us/politics/trump-uighurs...
CogitoCogito 6y ago
I don't entirely trust Biden when it comes to this, however, you can't really compare Taiwan to Hong Kong. To take Taiwan, China needs to annex an entirely separate country. They can do that through soft influence (pretty sure everyone agrees that's totally a failure), through economic means (Taiwan has been diversifying it's economy so not sure how great that option is anymore), or militarily. Even if other countries were to stay out of it, it would extremely risky for China. They very well could fail. Comparing Taiwan to Hong Kong in this instance really is kind of ludicrous.
- thedudeabides5 6y ago
  It may be risky for China, but if you actually read Chinese media (or even the halfway house that is the SCMP), you can see to them it's not a question of IF but WHEN... https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/article/2174705/why-china-will-wait-until-2030-take-back https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/a...
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    I know and it's scary. That doesn't mean an attack will actually happen though. And even if it does happen, that doesn't mean it'll succeed.
    - thepasswordis 6y ago
      What downside does China have? Nobody will stand up and do anything to stop them.
      - CogitoCogito 6y ago
        What downsides? Even ignoring the economic and political fallout (which could leave them entirely isolated on the world stage), they could _fail_ in their attempted invasion even if only going head to head with Taiwan. The result after both a successful and an unsuccessful invasion could very well be a collapse of the PRC. They certainly understand this. That's way they've simply used the threats as a tool of internal propaganda. They may one day go for it, but it is very far from risk-free.

echelon 6y ago

If we care at all about our future and the generations to come, we must oppose China at all costs. They extinguish dissent. Not just locally, but abroad. They censor our domestic companies that want a foothold in their market (Disney, Blizzard, the NBA, Apple). We need to stop taking their money, and we need to move manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, and Africa. Strategic manufacturing (medical and tech) needs to be re-onshored. They're flexing their muscles because they know they will be on top. If we continue the status quo, it's only a matter of time. We will wind up just like them if we continue to let this cancer grow. It will be incredibly painful, but we need to stop importing. Now. We can play hard. Militarize Japan. Strengthen our partnership with Vietnam. Offer US statehood to Taiwan and build a base there. Dispute the South China Sea takeover, start building oil rigs, and police the area. Be a better ally to Europe and our democratic partners. edit: Here come the anti-US downvotes. We're overrun with the enemies of democracy. It doesn't matter if you're a liberal of conservative - we have to unite to protect our precious, priceless freedom.

rasengan 6y ago
To be clear, China isn’t censoring these companies - the traitors running the companies are censoring them on behalf of China.
- Glide 6y ago
  We have met the enemy and it is us.
seeseepeesuxx 6y ago
Too late
patagonia 6y ago
I don't see this going down the path of "we wind up just like them". I see this going down the path of WW III. What we need is another cold war. Any hot war will be unimaginably costly and drawn out.
- 6y ago

claydavisss 6y ago

hongkongwatch banned from Twitter in 5,4,3...

Arubis 6y ago

This timing is unsurprising; it’s clear there’s nobody at the wheel in the U.S. for a couple of weeks, lowering the odds of reprisal during this window of opportunity. What would shift this? Does the E.U. have sufficient clout?

justinzollars 6y ago
Someone will "be at the wheel" in a few days. And you will not see China back down. Why? China will soon overtake the United States - and not just by a little - by a lot.
- wwwwwwwww 6y ago
  China annexed the Scarborough Shoal 8 years ago. And the guy who will "be at the wheel" soon did nothing back then (despite of there being a defense treaty). These mass arrests are just China getting ready to annex Hong Kong as soon as "the wheel" is in the hand of the guy they already know will no nothing.
inglor_cz 6y ago
"Does the E.U. have sufficient clout?" Germany / Merkel (because she is the one who determines German foreign policy de facto) will not do anything that is against German business interests. As of 2021, Germany is neither left, nor right, neither liberal, nor conservative - on the international scene, it is a purely business-oriented nation.
vanilla-almond 6y ago
The EU has clout but is unlikely to do anything that might threaten investment ties between China and the EU. Investment (and the promise of jobs) takes priority over human rights concerns: https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-drive-for-eu-china-deal-draws-criticism-from-other-eu-countries/ https://www.politico.eu/article/germanys-drive-for-eu-china-...

mantap 6y ago

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

orange_tee 6y ago
China is strong and the UK is weak. The treaty is not valid anymore. Only an idiot would say otherwise.
- eloisius 6y ago
  The terms of the treaty state anything about the relative strength of each nation?
  - wwwwwwwww 6y ago
    I tell you a secret: The CCP doesn't actually care about the rules of international law. Who is gonna stop them? Nobody.
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      This is the problem restated, yes, and that’s what we’re talking about.
    - orange_tee 6y ago
      Neither does the US or the UK or any other country that actually matters. And btw there is no such thing as international law.
      - sbdisns 6y ago
        I mean, you’re right, however most constitutions, including the US, put treaty obligations as equal in force of law.
  - sbdisns 6y ago

ndiscussion 6y ago

And that's a good thing! Speech can be dangerous and freedom from speech does not mean freedom from consequences! China is not subject to the first amendment, you don't like it, make your own country!

wwwwwwwww 6y ago

When the CCP invaded and annexed the Scarborough Shoal in 2012, the Obama administration ignored the defense treaty between the US and the Philippines and allowed the CCP to keep the land. So now that Biden is practically in power, it makes sense that the CCP innitiates the process for the annexation of Hong Kong in the comming month. My guess is that, before the end of the Biden term, the CCP will have made a move on Taiwan as well. And the West will not do anything about it other than "a strongly worded letter".

Leary 6y ago

These Hong Kong supporters are a true inspiration for Americans. Their occupation of the legislature shows what a free people could do against oppression

ceilingcorner 6y ago
I remember seeing them waving American flags during protests, presumably as a reference to liberty. I thought, “I wish we lived up to their perceptions of us.”
- loceng 6y ago
  Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.
  - dragonsh 6y ago
    Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth. This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 times worse than HK. Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide in Afganistan and killed scores of kids and unarmed civilians. There is hardly any ground left for them to teach others. No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests. China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP [1]. May be work there for a while and than you can see why Korea, Japan and Greater China did so well not others in growth. It’s easy to talk rhetoric, but hard to do hard work to bring about transformation. [1] https://danwang.co/2020-letter/ https://danwang.co/2020-letter/
    - jcytong 6y ago

ceilingcorner 6y ago

The situation in HK is depressing, especially when Western corporations and politicians seem to admire the CCP more than democratic activists. What can an individual do to help Hong Kongers? Any suggestions?

baybal2 6y ago
> What can an individual do to help Hong Kongers? Any suggestions? How many firearms, and ammo you can buy, and how many politicians you can lobby? Even if you are a single digit millionaire, that's just enough to arm, and feed no more than a single lightly armed battalion for a few months. I see other option than a military solution, either limited, or not. Even if any Western power decide on half hearted piecemeal solution like smuggling weapons into to China, and rile up the populace, it will only bleed China a very, very little. China easily endure waging a civil war the size of Syrian, and continue growing economically like if nothing happened.
- knolax 6y ago
  > How many firearms, and ammo you can buy How would you feel if I advocated for arming communist rebels in your country? It's disturbing how normalized calls to violence are on HN when the violence happens far away.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    US communist rebels can already go to a store and buy some assault rifles :D. So what is your point? Maybe the point is that armed people in a democracy is not that big of a deal, but armed people in a dictatorship can be a real problem.
    - knolax 6y ago
      > Maybe the point is that armed people in a democracy is not that big of a deal, but armed people in a dictatorship can be a real problem. You can scroll down a couple posts to see people being outraged that those who stormed the Capitol had weapons and bombs with them. I wonder how cavalier your attitude remains when the guns are pointed at your face. Then again second amendment fanatics like you are already totally fine with school shootings.

kombucha111 6y ago

Donald Trump, various world powers and the US should be ashamed at their refusal to stand up for Hong Kong. So sad.

Grimm1 6y ago

The US should be forming a closer relationship with India, to work with them strategically to increase their domestic investment and try to reach some type of parity, economically, with China as a ballast. We, the US, simply don't have the literal bodies regardless of our economy.

echelon 6y ago
> We, the US, simply don't have the literal bodies regardless of our economy. Open immigration, create tax incentives for raising children, and start minting new US states. We could close the gap with China and India if we prioritized it. I think it's of strategic importance that we do.
- Grimm1 6y ago
  I think your idea is another perfectly valid alternative. I just haven't seen the appetite for it. I know the recent immigration changes were rolled back, but if the crazy requirements instituted a few months ago says anything it's that like 40% of our country are super against the immigration route.

thepasswordis 6y ago

How do people seriously not see the parallels here? The way that the CCP, and most Chinese people, view the protestors in Hong Kong, is exactly the same way that the US Government, as well as most of the US, view the protestors in DC on Weds. HKers say they want democracy and fair elections. CCP and most Chinese think that's bullshit. MAGAs say they want democracy and fair elections. Most of the US Gov as well as most US citizens think that's bullshit. CCP wants to ban "disharmonious activity" from social media. HKers think that's a front for suppression of dissent. US Gov wants to ban "hate speech" from social media. MAGA think that's just a front for suppression of dissent. CCP runs pseudo-secret reeducation camps in Xianjian. US runs pseudo-secret detention camps at Guantanamo Bay. Etc. etc. etc.

ceejayoz 6y ago
> The way that the CCP, and most Chinese people, view the protestors in Hong Kong, is exactly the same way that the US Government, as well as most of the US, view the protestors in DC on Weds. We're not counting the President of the United States as part of the US Government?
- thepasswordis 6y ago
  Is this a joke? Trump is the most anti-CCP president in the last 40 years. Please watch this Pompeo speech if you want to know how the Trump admin feels towards China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7azj-t0gtPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7azj-t0gtPM
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    The poster alleges the US Government opposes the DC protesters in the same way the CCP opposes the HK ones. That requires not considering the US President to be part of the US Government for it to be true.
    - thepasswordis 6y ago
      The US president has said that he will use the full power of the government to track down and prosecute everybody involved in the capitol riot. I'd link you to the video of him saying this, but Twitter deleted it so I can't.

tinza123 6y ago

Enough of these political posts on HN. If I want to see them I would head to r/news or NY Times. Strongly opinionated conclusion supported by piecemeal information aiming to inspire meaningless online battles with strangers? No thanks.

minikites 6y ago
Everything is political. If you don't think so, it means you're protected by at least some kind of privilege. Rather than denying that, think about what advantages you have in your life that insulate you from the struggles of other people.
- z5h 6y ago
  Everything is A LITTLE BIT political. And we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect. My pancake breakfast has ties to unions, lobbyists, international trade. Guess what, I’m just going to eat my pancakes.
  - loceng 6y ago
    "Everything is A LITTLE BIT political." This is called minimizing/minimization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology) https://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/23/minimization-manipulation-tactic/ https://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/23/minimiza...
    - bobthebuilders 6y ago
      You are just doing maximization instead.
  - minikites 6y ago
    >we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect This is a perfect illustration of the privilege I was talking about, thank you.

justinzollars 6y ago

Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in SF is against colonialism. Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? Our country [The United States] is literally falling apart. Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China is internally focused, and will solve its internal problems in Hong Kong. Whether you like it or not. It's simply how they operate considering their 5,000 year history.

CogitoCogito 6y ago
> Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in San Francisco is against colonialism. > Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? > Our country is literally falling apart. > Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China is internally focused, and will solve its internal problems in Hong Kong. Whether you like it or not. It's simply how they operate considering their 5,000 year history. China itself was built by imperialist and colonial actions. If you truly are against such actions (or if you support treaty agreements) you would support Hong Kong citizens in their attempt to stay some sort of separate entity. People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. I'm not personally arguing that China should break apart, but the "5,000 year history of China" somehow implying that they need to take over everything in the area is just a made-up historical argument to support their current imperialism. Maybe we can't go back and give Hong Kongers a voice, but we shouldn't pretend like their fate was somehow natural or just. And we shouldn't watch them go down now without a care.
- knolax 6y ago
  > People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. More drivel by someone who likely can't speak or read any dialect of Chinese and has no idea of history. Rome has been dead for millennia. The last emperor of the Qing dynasty died in 1967. The Romance "languages" are only considered languages because the Latin alphabet has no way of dealing with natural drifts in pronounciation. Most differences between them are superficial at best. The language spoken in Northern Italy is functionally identical to that spoken in Southern France. It is only because every province sized country in Europe insists on creating their own orthography that they seem different. If you don't believe me just look at Catalan or Cantonese Wikipedia. Despite best efforts by the people writing the articles, they still appear almost identical to standard Spanish and Chinese. Even if we take your claims about language for granted, The city that Cantonese is named after is on the Mainland, and mainlander Cantonese far outnumber those in Hong Kong. By your logic an independent Hong Kong is as natural as Brooklyn being independent from the rest of New York. EDIT: You don't have a point and the claims you've made are egregiously wrong. Here's a hint, 1967 >>>>> 395. EDIT In Response because of comment limits: > My first point is that Hong Kongers of course should have had the right to vote on the handover back to China. They were not offered that and we can't go back. In the 60s the Hong Kongese held mass riots against the British in support of reunification.[0] Linguistically and culturally the Hong Kongese they are no different from their fellow Cantonese in the mainland. Most of its residents are only a couple generations removed from the Mainland. This tactic of constantly trying to make some arbitrary strategic region of China seem like it's some cultural enclave is as ridiculous as claiming that maybe "San Francisco isn't preordained to be American". If you think there's some drastic cultural difference the burden of proof lies on you. > You literally didn't contradict anything I said linguistically or culturally (i.e. that China is _not_ some singular linguistical/cultural area), which was my point. So no I _do_ have a point and you yourself agreed with it. I am making the point that the linguistic differences between Romance language speakers are exaggerated and nonexistent in practice, not agreeing with you that the linguistic differences in China are significant. > You made another point that the fact that China was unified more recently as an empire than Rome means they are somehow more legitimate. You acted as if China was some newly formed entity, and used it to imply that it isn't natural for it to be unified. The amount of times China has been unified far outstrips the amount of times when a single city that's not even self sufficient infrastructurally has been independent. > I’ve never heard someone claim otherwise. How many Hong Kongese and Cantonese have you met? I doubt the number is more than a dozen. You keep doing this unbacked argument that "maybe X isn't shouldn't be a part of China because maybe they have a different culture" without any evidence they have a different culture, likely because you've never encountered their culture in person. The burden of proof lies on you when X has been a part of China for millennial longer than it's ever been indepedent. You then act as if the Hong Kongese had no say during the handover when they were clearly much more violently in favor of reunification at the time. The scale of the present protests are not nearly as great as the ones in '67. > So you agree that there is no natural cultural-linguestic reason for China to be unified in its current form Jesus Christ how many times do I have to point out that China is linguistically unified and that the Hong Kongese have no significant cultural differences to justify independence. The burden of proof lies on you to disprove me. Countries don't stay unified for centuries without a linguistic and cultural common ground. > I can't follow this anymore. Post replies like a normal person and I'll respond. If not, okay that's fine too. I think we've mostly explained our respective beliefs And I can't reply to your comments because of rate limiting on HackerNews. No need to be extremely passive aggressive about it. I don't think you've understood my beliefs and I don't think you intend to. This entire time you've been putting words in ny mouth. > Anyway I'll stop this discussion here so that you can focus on all the other posts you're apparently making. Maybe the extra bandwidth will allow you to post normally in the other conversations at least. There's no way you don't have enough self awareness to notice how passive aggressive this sounds. Besides, you've posted 6 comments in the past hour. I posted 7 in the past day. Pointing out that the Hong Kongese speak the second most common dialect in China, are only a couple generations removed from the mainland, spent most of their history not seeking independece from the rest of China, and obviously felt enough kinship to the rest of China to violently attempt reunification is enough justification that they are reasonably culturally unified with the rest of the country. You, on the other hand have provided no evidence to the contrary, and seem outraged that I even ask you for proof. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots

anovikov 6y ago

Also, may i make a devilish point: why are you concerned? Don't we the free people win by making the "free country" status more of an elite thing? If we are sure that dictatorship brings misery and eventual failure, we should be happy about what's going on. They will be worse off and we, better.

snicksnak 6y ago

The whole world watches during this annexation of Hongkong. Worse, the UN just made CCP a member of their Human Rights Council until 2023. Meanwhile they keep expanding their concentration camps for Uyghurs and even bragging how they decreased Uyghur birthrates by applying "family planning policies". And again, the whole world watches, this all brings me to the realization that the slogan "Never Again", is just that, a slogan, politicians and people in general throw around to signal. It really disgusts me.

psim1 6y ago

Hong Kong is not China. It only takes a few weeks in each place to see. Was it wrong of the British to take HK as a colony at one time? Yes in the same way it was wrong of them to take eastern North America. Hong Kong—culturally, philosophically, politically, spiritually, virtually in every way—is not China and should not simply be “given” over to them by the rest of the world.

joreilly 6y ago

If anyone is looking for a relatively digestible book on China, I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. While he does tend to meander at some points, it gives a solid introduction to China's recent history (arrival of the British, the civil war, up to around 2010) and interactions with the United States throughout. At least, to someone who initially had very little knowledge on the topic. [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9328314-on-china https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9328314-on-china

snomad 6y ago
Highly recommend this one https://www.amazon.com/Burying-Mao-Richard-Baum/dp/0691036373 https://www.amazon.com/Burying-Mao-Richard-Baum/dp/069103637... Here's the author's obituary, it does a nice job summarizing his expertise on the subject https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-richard-baum-20121220-story.html https://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-richard-baum-...
- joreilly 6y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation! I feel as though On China sacrificed detail to allow for greater scope, and it left me wanting for more information on certain periods.
baybal2 6y ago
> I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. I will wholeheartedly not recommend anybody to read Kissinger. The man has completely imaginary idea of what China is, and even more so about its leadership. I can only lament at the fact that now multiple generations of Western politicians, and diplomats were grown upon his coolaid.
- joreilly 6y ago
  I'm assuming you're referring to how softly he tip-toes around events like the Tiananmen Square Protests or the massive famine during the Great Leap Forward? If so, I certainly agree with you and many of the Goodreads reviewers in that his approach could be considered overly diplomatic. If anything, I think knowing the weaknesses of the book in advance is advantageous for weighing what Kissinger says throughout. If not, I'm curious to know your thoughts. My knowledge on China is limited to discussions with family friends who have some experience through their work, and this book, so I would not be surprised to know that I am severely lacking.

kuringa 6y ago

China must start to send these crocks to Gobi. Bunch of US backed snowflakes. By the way, when HN will start to post about US violations everywhere?