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similarly, hardening the capitol is not the way. To the extent that even trying to be a shining city on a hill is possible, I can tell you that it is impossibl

similarly, hardening the capitol is not the way. To the extent that even trying to be a shining city on a hill is possible, I can tell you that it is impossible if you wall it off. Walling up the people's house this summer and violating the rights and bodies of peaceful protestors was rightly condemned, too. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/better-security-cannot-stop-coup/617607/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/01/better-...

pii 6y ago
Right because protests that we're aimed at begging officials to acknowledge a perspective is the same thing as an attempted coup. BLM is not the same as MAGA.
- leereeves 6y ago
  "Begging officials to acknowledge a perspective" is not an accurate description of protestors declaring an autonomous zone or taking over or burning down police stations and courthouses. Here's a BLM protest speaker definitely not "begging officials to acknowledge a perspective": "I'm at the point where I'm ready to put these police in a f***ing grave. I'm at the point where I want to burn the f***ing White House down. ... I wanna take the fight to them. And at the end of the day, if they ain't gonna hear us, we burn them the f**k down." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDTu4ctpglc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDTu4ctpglc
  - 3131s 6y ago
    I for one support the yahoos on both sides. Burn it all down.
- sigzero 6y ago
  No, but that doesn't mean they aren't just as bad.
- zaroth 6y ago
  It’s not OK to describe shooting police in the head, lighting them on fire, burning down precincts, firebombing Federal courthouses, occupying city halls, and cordoning off entire city blocks with armed insurgents as “begging officials to acknowledge a perspective.”
grecy 6y ago
> hardening the capitol is not the way But they did exacrtly that during the BLM protests, where people had no weapons. They've even physically ejected disabled people from protesting at the Capitol. So it seems they have no qualms about doing it to certain groups of people.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  And that was wrong then too. What is with people and wanting to make this society do its version of 'papers please' every 5 steps.
daniellarusso 6y ago
So, from the article: * “U.S. Capitol security needs a total overhaul. The physical breaching and desecration of our temple of democracy must never happen again,” Senator Brian Schatz, a Democrat from Hawaii, said on Twitter. The thing is, he is right, but physical security improvements alone will not protect the Capitol from another insurrection.* So, how did the author make the leap that Senator Schatz meant physical security improvements? I think alot of Senators are thinking more along the lines of this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal... How do they ensure law enforcement are not complicit in the coup?
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Is the Capitol really the "temple of democracy"? If anything, I would think the voting booth would be the temple of democracy and the Capitol would be the temple of Republicanism/Federalism?
  - daniellarusso 6y ago
    By that logic, democracy is only practiced several times a decade (over a period of weeks)?
    - valvar 6y ago
      Isn't that exactly the case (besides in Switzerland)?
      - daniellarusso 6y ago
        I honestly don’t know, but I know it is not 24/7.
      - simonh 6y ago
        Democracy is a form of government, so any function of a democratic government is a democratic act. This is because that act was made legitimate and is held accountable via a democratic process. This isn’t sophistry, it’s a vitally important point because the legitimacy and accountability of government are the individual responsibility of every citizen. You and I are responsible for complying with government because we consent to be ruled due to our recognition of its legitimacy. Equally, we are responsible when we vote in a leader or representative. The guy in Starship Troopers is right, a vote is an act of force.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
neartheplain 6y ago
We can improve the security of the capitol without closing it off the public. Off the top of my head, such improvements might include: - Exterior doors that can't be rammed open with portable fences - Interior doors with shatterproof glass windows - Facade walls that don't function as ladders [0] [0] https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/photo-capitol-lockdown-trump-supporter-riot-dc-15850767.php https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/photo-capito...
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Smithsonian museums are federal property open to the public and they have better security.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- monoideism 6y ago
  We don't have to do any of this. We just need to have the same preparations that were (wisely) in place for the BLM protests in DC, to also be in place for any other major protest with the potential to go off. And then enacted if a threat arises. It takes a large number of people to pull off what they pulled of on Tuesday. And no need for tear gas unless and until an attack is mounted.
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    Regardless of who the protestors are, the moment it becomes more than a peaceful protest teargas is a pretty safe tool compared to everything else in the arsenal. "LTL" projectiles are really nasty and easily mis-used, tasers fairly consistently produce deaths on a segment of the population with heart defects, and baton fighting is basically open melee combat.
    - monoideism 6y ago
      Oh, I agree that it should be used once a riot is declared. I just think its use was probably a bit premature in DC over the summer, although I'd need to go back and review the footage myself to be sure. I can't trust the media to report incidents like this fairly anymore.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
Oddly, I was reading Audacity of hope lately and Obama was reminiscing about how Washington was much more open with less checkpoints and whatnot. In a sense, he mourned passing of direct access of US citizenry to the halls where the sausage is made. That is kinda how I am feeling now. I remember being on a trip to White House. It was very accessible way back when. I am not certain to overt separation of 'little people' and 'non-little peopple' is that good of an idea, overall.

pii 6y ago

Right because protests that we're aimed at begging officials to acknowledge a perspective is the same thing as an attempted coup. BLM is not the same as MAGA.

leereeves 6y ago
"Begging officials to acknowledge a perspective" is not an accurate description of protestors declaring an autonomous zone or taking over or burning down police stations and courthouses. Here's a BLM protest speaker definitely not "begging officials to acknowledge a perspective": "I'm at the point where I'm ready to put these police in a f***ing grave. I'm at the point where I want to burn the f***ing White House down. ... I wanna take the fight to them. And at the end of the day, if they ain't gonna hear us, we burn them the f**k down." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDTu4ctpglc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDTu4ctpglc
- 3131s 6y ago
  I for one support the yahoos on both sides. Burn it all down.
sigzero 6y ago
No, but that doesn't mean they aren't just as bad.
zaroth 6y ago
It’s not OK to describe shooting police in the head, lighting them on fire, burning down precincts, firebombing Federal courthouses, occupying city halls, and cordoning off entire city blocks with armed insurgents as “begging officials to acknowledge a perspective.”

grecy 6y ago

> hardening the capitol is not the way But they did exacrtly that during the BLM protests, where people had no weapons. They've even physically ejected disabled people from protesting at the Capitol. So it seems they have no qualms about doing it to certain groups of people.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
And that was wrong then too. What is with people and wanting to make this society do its version of 'papers please' every 5 steps.

daniellarusso 6y ago

So, from the article: * “U.S. Capitol security needs a total overhaul. The physical breaching and desecration of our temple of democracy must never happen again,” Senator Brian Schatz, a Democrat from Hawaii, said on Twitter. The thing is, he is right, but physical security improvements alone will not protect the Capitol from another insurrection.* So, how did the author make the leap that Senator Schatz meant physical security improvements? I think alot of Senators are thinking more along the lines of this article: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?amp https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal... How do they ensure law enforcement are not complicit in the coup?

oh_sigh 6y ago
Is the Capitol really the "temple of democracy"? If anything, I would think the voting booth would be the temple of democracy and the Capitol would be the temple of Republicanism/Federalism?
- daniellarusso 6y ago
  By that logic, democracy is only practiced several times a decade (over a period of weeks)?
  - valvar 6y ago
    Isn't that exactly the case (besides in Switzerland)?
    - daniellarusso 6y ago
      I honestly don’t know, but I know it is not 24/7.
    - simonh 6y ago
      Democracy is a form of government, so any function of a democratic government is a democratic act. This is because that act was made legitimate and is held accountable via a democratic process. This isn’t sophistry, it’s a vitally important point because the legitimacy and accountability of government are the individual responsibility of every citizen. You and I are responsible for complying with government because we consent to be ruled due to our recognition of its legitimacy. Equally, we are responsible when we vote in a leader or representative. The guy in Starship Troopers is right, a vote is an act of force.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

neartheplain 6y ago

We can improve the security of the capitol without closing it off the public. Off the top of my head, such improvements might include: - Exterior doors that can't be rammed open with portable fences - Interior doors with shatterproof glass windows - Facade walls that don't function as ladders [0] [0] https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/photo-capitol-lockdown-trump-supporter-riot-dc-15850767.php https://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/photo-capito...

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Smithsonian museums are federal property open to the public and they have better security.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
monoideism 6y ago
We don't have to do any of this. We just need to have the same preparations that were (wisely) in place for the BLM protests in DC, to also be in place for any other major protest with the potential to go off. And then enacted if a threat arises. It takes a large number of people to pull off what they pulled of on Tuesday. And no need for tear gas unless and until an attack is mounted.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Regardless of who the protestors are, the moment it becomes more than a peaceful protest teargas is a pretty safe tool compared to everything else in the arsenal. "LTL" projectiles are really nasty and easily mis-used, tasers fairly consistently produce deaths on a segment of the population with heart defects, and baton fighting is basically open melee combat.
  - monoideism 6y ago
    Oh, I agree that it should be used once a riot is declared. I just think its use was probably a bit premature in DC over the summer, although I'd need to go back and review the footage myself to be sure. I can't trust the media to report incidents like this fairly anymore.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

Oddly, I was reading Audacity of hope lately and Obama was reminiscing about how Washington was much more open with less checkpoints and whatnot. In a sense, he mourned passing of direct access of US citizenry to the halls where the sausage is made. That is kinda how I am feeling now. I remember being on a trip to White House. It was very accessible way back when. I am not certain to overt separation of 'little people' and 'non-little peopple' is that good of an idea, overall.