5 ms·

> The type of person that stormed the capitol will perceive this as an escalation. I’m sure that’s not what we need, but I’m also sure that there is no good way

by cure 6y ago

> The type of person that stormed the capitol will perceive this as an escalation. I’m sure that’s not what we need, but I’m also sure that there is no good way out of this mess. I actually think that the reason we are in this mess is because there have been zero consequences for terrible behavior, so far. Of all the terrible things Trump has done, it has taken inciting a riot, an attempted overthrow of our democratically elected government, for him to loose his megaphone. Why was incarcerating children at the border not enough? Or encouraging those "fine people" in Charlottesville who murdered a woman? Or one of the many other instances of him spewing hate? We need more accountability. Actions have consequences, and it is long overdue that those people who take irresponsible, harmful actions, either out of desire for personal gain or sheer idiocy, start feeling the consequences. The right is supposedly the side to which "law and order" appeals. Trump and his people are exactly the kind of people who need to know that they will get punished to the full extent of the law when they misbehave. That's the only thing that will keep them in line. Because it's not like they have a moral compass to fall back on.

rattlesnakedave 6y ago
This comment is entirely divorced from reality.
- wtallis 6y ago
  Would you care to be more specific about what you think is factually incorrect about that comment, or are you just glibly trying to borrow a phrase that is more commonly (and more accurately) used these days against Trump and his supporters? It certainly seems to me that Trump and many of his most high-profile supporters have been remarkably free from serious consequences despite behavior that has been scandalous to an unprecedented degree. Going by the political and societal norms of just a few decades ago, Trump's political career should have been dead and buried dozens of times over.
  - disgrunt 6y ago
    The "kids in cages" and "very fine people" nonsense continues to get peddled despite not being rooted in reality. And lets not forget, Trump told everyone to drink bleach to treat COVID-19!
    - wtallis 6y ago
      You seem to be complaining about some stuff that's not actually mentioned in the comment at issue. That's not a great way to back up that "divorced from reality" assertion. And for the stuff that does appear to be at least somewhat relevant to the comment at issue, you haven't clarified anything about what you believe to be divorced from reality, merely asserted that it is all "nonsense". The comment at issue did not use the phrase "kids in cages". That's you adding your personal color to a subject that you seem to object to being brought up in any manner at all. It looks like you're trying to build a straw-man or three, rather than justify the accusation that the comment in question is "entirely divorced from reality".
      - Bantros 6y ago
        "Or encouraging those "fine people" in Charlottesville who murdered a woman" is divorced from reality, because it didn't happen
        wtallis 6y ago
        More specifically, it gets the order of events wrong. Trump's comments about "very fine people" came after the deadly white supremacist rally, so it's misleading to imply that those comments were in encouragement of the killing. However, it's perfectly valid to construe Trump's comments as praise after the fact for the white supremacist rally, even though he specifically condemned the killing that resulted. Because Trump's assertions that there were "very fine people" on both sides and that there were many people on the alt-right side of that event who were not neo-Nazis or white nationalists are simply not credible claims. Trump was praising somebody. Even praising or encouraging the kind of white supremacists who don't get violent is abhorrent conduct on the part of the president, but the comment upthread exaggerated beyond this.
biscotti 6y ago
He waged no wars and killed less innocent people than any other president in living history. The action in Syria at the beginning of his term he was reluctant to take & was practically forced into it by the state. If the establishment, including the courts, had provided the transparency he was calling for and Zuckerberg hadn't thrown $100s of millions to bypass state laws and undermine safeguards in the election the West wouldn't be in this quandary. Let's rather look at the moral compass of Bloomberg, Wall Street, big tech, the race baiting media and the industrial military complex, along with representatives who are a-ok allowing a crooked election go by and have used the Capitol riot, who some say had staged components, to prevent evidence being heard and go after those who would give it. Their actions right now have no consequences and they're on track to have an aspirational and productive half of America unpersoned and the rest of us living in fear.
- effable 6y ago
  I think the point about wars is fair. However, there's no evidence that the election was crooked - the courts think so too. In addition, the President's moral compass seems to be pointing towards strong arming election officials to provide him the exact number of votes (11,780) that he needs to overturn Georgia, pardoning his former friends and allies and convicted war criminals. And this is just within the last couple of weeks.
  - biscotti 6y ago
    The problem is there's evidence should you choose to see it, constitutional unlawfulness & just cause on an unprecedented scale to at least demand a thorough discovery stage in the courts, which never happened. The way to kill the fraud narrative is by debating those raising the charge, actually hearing the cases in court instead of tossing them on procedural grounds and allowing full audits, signature matches in Fulton for example. If you listen to the full phone call from which the carefully picked snippet you refer to was lifted Trumps moral compass seems far better than the shifty and obstructionist Georgia Secretary of State to me - Raffensberger has no explanation for simple charges and whimpers when reminded of the requests he has been actively ignoring [1]. It does not exactly scream "innocent" to anyone with half a conscience. Nor did the threatening and doxxing of children that occured during the certification of the Michigan electors. https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trump-berates-governors-in-call/2020/06/01/1e6e9fb6-bd8f-4349-a5ff-5bedde5b8516_video.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trump-be...
verwyrelevant 6y ago
He should have stuck to bombing weddings in Afghanistan and Yemen, like Peace Nobel winner Barack Obama did.

by cure 6y ago

rattlesnakedave 6y ago

This comment is entirely divorced from reality.

wtallis 6y ago
Would you care to be more specific about what you think is factually incorrect about that comment, or are you just glibly trying to borrow a phrase that is more commonly (and more accurately) used these days against Trump and his supporters? It certainly seems to me that Trump and many of his most high-profile supporters have been remarkably free from serious consequences despite behavior that has been scandalous to an unprecedented degree. Going by the political and societal norms of just a few decades ago, Trump's political career should have been dead and buried dozens of times over.
- disgrunt 6y ago
  The "kids in cages" and "very fine people" nonsense continues to get peddled despite not being rooted in reality. And lets not forget, Trump told everyone to drink bleach to treat COVID-19!
  - wtallis 6y ago
    You seem to be complaining about some stuff that's not actually mentioned in the comment at issue. That's not a great way to back up that "divorced from reality" assertion. And for the stuff that does appear to be at least somewhat relevant to the comment at issue, you haven't clarified anything about what you believe to be divorced from reality, merely asserted that it is all "nonsense". The comment at issue did not use the phrase "kids in cages". That's you adding your personal color to a subject that you seem to object to being brought up in any manner at all. It looks like you're trying to build a straw-man or three, rather than justify the accusation that the comment in question is "entirely divorced from reality".
    - Bantros 6y ago
      "Or encouraging those "fine people" in Charlottesville who murdered a woman" is divorced from reality, because it didn't happen
      - wtallis 6y ago
        More specifically, it gets the order of events wrong. Trump's comments about "very fine people" came after the deadly white supremacist rally, so it's misleading to imply that those comments were in encouragement of the killing. However, it's perfectly valid to construe Trump's comments as praise after the fact for the white supremacist rally, even though he specifically condemned the killing that resulted. Because Trump's assertions that there were "very fine people" on both sides and that there were many people on the alt-right side of that event who were not neo-Nazis or white nationalists are simply not credible claims. Trump was praising somebody. Even praising or encouraging the kind of white supremacists who don't get violent is abhorrent conduct on the part of the president, but the comment upthread exaggerated beyond this.

biscotti 6y ago

He waged no wars and killed less innocent people than any other president in living history. The action in Syria at the beginning of his term he was reluctant to take & was practically forced into it by the state. If the establishment, including the courts, had provided the transparency he was calling for and Zuckerberg hadn't thrown $100s of millions to bypass state laws and undermine safeguards in the election the West wouldn't be in this quandary. Let's rather look at the moral compass of Bloomberg, Wall Street, big tech, the race baiting media and the industrial military complex, along with representatives who are a-ok allowing a crooked election go by and have used the Capitol riot, who some say had staged components, to prevent evidence being heard and go after those who would give it. Their actions right now have no consequences and they're on track to have an aspirational and productive half of America unpersoned and the rest of us living in fear.

effable 6y ago
I think the point about wars is fair. However, there's no evidence that the election was crooked - the courts think so too. In addition, the President's moral compass seems to be pointing towards strong arming election officials to provide him the exact number of votes (11,780) that he needs to overturn Georgia, pardoning his former friends and allies and convicted war criminals. And this is just within the last couple of weeks.
- biscotti 6y ago
  The problem is there's evidence should you choose to see it, constitutional unlawfulness & just cause on an unprecedented scale to at least demand a thorough discovery stage in the courts, which never happened. The way to kill the fraud narrative is by debating those raising the charge, actually hearing the cases in court instead of tossing them on procedural grounds and allowing full audits, signature matches in Fulton for example. If you listen to the full phone call from which the carefully picked snippet you refer to was lifted Trumps moral compass seems far better than the shifty and obstructionist Georgia Secretary of State to me - Raffensberger has no explanation for simple charges and whimpers when reminded of the requests he has been actively ignoring [1]. It does not exactly scream "innocent" to anyone with half a conscience. Nor did the threatening and doxxing of children that occured during the certification of the Michigan electors. https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trump-berates-governors-in-call/2020/06/01/1e6e9fb6-bd8f-4349-a5ff-5bedde5b8516_video.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trump-be...

verwyrelevant 6y ago

He should have stuck to bombing weddings in Afghanistan and Yemen, like Peace Nobel winner Barack Obama did.