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Family members works in parts quality (PQ) at a major automotive manufacturer. Once they crash the car and build the car to conform to the regulatory framework
by jcpham2 6y ago
Family members works in parts quality (PQ) at a major automotive manufacturer.
Once they crash the car and build the car to conform to the regulatory framework - the manufacturer of the parts in the car can't change. You must use the same Nippon semiconductors etc.
That's the simple explanation I was told.
- iancmceachern 6y agoYou can change them, it just comes with a lot of design, testing, V&V and Manufacturing work to satisfy the needs of a robust QMS system for a regulated environment.
- _trampeltier 6y agoYes, that is true. I work in a factory who makes (mechanic) car parts. For example, if we buy a new machine, we have to send some pieces to the car company and they do some tests again. If think it is more, because who will pay the recall of all cars, if the new part is not in spec.
- flybrand 6y agoPPAP - production part approval process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_part_approval_process https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production_part_approval_pro...
- xvf22 6y agoTesla seem to do a lot of running changes, are they certifying each one?
- tobyjsullivan 6y agoI don't see why they'd be exempt, generally. Obviously they only need to certify the changes that make it to production but, yeah, that still seems like more than other automakers. I'm guessing one advantage Tesla has over traditional automakers is their entire company has been built around the existing regulatory environment. I'd be willing to bet their recertification process is quite streamlined compared to companies that have iteratively patched it on to their tradition vehicle design processes. Just a guess though; I have no background knowledge on this topic.
- brundolf 6y ago"Continuous [Regulatory] Integration"
- vslira 6y agoFrankly it's a brilliant innovation, assuming that's the case. Applying new regulations quicker is definitely a moat in a heavily regulated environment, as long as it's not half-arsed
- turbinerneiter 6y agoThe traditional automakers are the ones making the regulation, trough lobbying (in the good and bad sense of the world). There isn't a regulation passed on the car industry that the car industry isn't part of writing. I highly doubt that the traditional carmakers are slowed down by regulations. Would be cool to find someone who has actual insights to ask this.
- mywittyname 6y agoThere are lots of mechanisms to fast-track changes. If Ford changes the headlight assembly on the next year Mustang, they don't go and crash the car again. They (or a supplier) fill out the certification form showing that their testing indicates the new headlight assembly abides by all the regulations imposed on vehicles, and submit it to the relevant state and federal bodies. You can generally tell what revisions are straight-forward to certify and which are not by noting common year-to-year changes in a model.
- terafo 6y agoAFAIK Tesla tries to produce as much as they can in-house. They are designing their own chips for their cars, for example.
- taneq 6y agoThat sure would make it easier if the regulation is written as "you must use the same supplier" and they can just say "yup, it me".
- MichaelZuo 6y agoPerhaps it is the biggest reason why they did that in the first place.
- numpad0 6y agoAnd that contributed to their stupid issues like skipping conformal coating and cars getting runaway power steering from it
- zaroth 6y agoCan you point to the recall from this? The recall I can find is to replace 3 bolts that can corrode due to salt which would cause loss of power steering. I’m not sure what runaway power steering is?
- numpad0 6y agoCrazy in a general context of cars but not sure they issued recalls? That seems normal wrt Teslas. IIRC the root cause was water intrusion into power steering ECU on MS P100D, could be rain or condensation.
- londons_explore 6y agoNot unique to them... An entirely reproducible power glitch in my early honda hybrid causes the power steering to steer at full power to the left... End result is the wheel spins with so much force it broke my thumbs... Lucky I was only doing 5mph at the time! It's 100% a design fault, and applies equally to any car of this model (I tested it on a friends, same result!). There are simple reproduction steps which can totally happen by accident, yet there has been no recall or service bulletin issued. I ended up pulling the power steering controller apart and adding my own safety circuit to the microcontroller output so my car is now the only car of this model which won't break your thumbs or steer you into a ditch!
- taneq 6y agoSo even the small electronic components are locked in after the vehicle passes crash testing? That seems weird, I wouldn't have thought that the IC you use on the indicator modules (say) would affect the crashworthiness, especially if you're replacing like with like.
- edwinbalani 6y agoCrash testing will be part of a wider testing plan. The logic there is that you have shown all the tests to pass using that particular hardware+software configuration. Only that configuration (and any future ones you put through testing, verification and validation) is what you're allowed to ship to customers. (I work in a regulated environment, but not automotive, and we run into the same barriers, often for even minor changes. We work agile, but changes will get released in planned batches every few months, rather than shipping instantly. For automotive, I'm guessing their update cadence would be every model year.)
- colechristensen 6y agoAnd if the IC on the indicator gets changed out and the new one causes interference which leads to the airbags not deploying in a crash? Building things which can have small defects that kill people is just a different game.
- throwaway201103 6y agoYet we allow people to replace almost any part on the car themeselves, with varying grades of quality made by aftermarket or OE manufacturers. Brakes, suspension components, body panels, electical components, etc. purchased from Amazon and made somewhere in China. Once it's in the customer's hands, it seems a lot of those rules go out the window.
- benibela 6y agoIn Germany you are not allowed to change the car E.g. there are these additinonal brake lights one could place at the top of the rear window. For a long time it was illegal to use them, even if you just glued them on the inside
- garyfirestorm 6y agoonly for things that actually affect crash safety. you can change radio without any issues.
- sonium 6y agoActually there is quite a lot of change going on. German car manufacturers have standardised on the so called delta-qualification-matrix [1] which basically says what kind of tests should be done to before implementing an change (which can be anything from nothing if e.g. the label print of a semiconductor changes up to a full retest of the whole ECU). But its probably that there is just no alternatives on the market, since Ties Ones have extensive supply chain management with second and third sources for the majority of semiconductors. 1: https://www.zvei.org/en/subjects/mobility/product-process-change-notification-method-in-automotive-electronics https://www.zvei.org/en/subjects/mobility/product-process-ch...
- archi42 6y agoThis makes sense. One would at least plan what do do in case components suddenly become unavailable due to unexpected events. E.g. when the AKM plant recently burned down this already was havoc for a lot of audio applications. I'd guess that at least 15% of all cars in the >35kUS$ range use one or more AKM ICs. Unless car manufacturers (or their suppliers) have enough stock of AKM ADCs and DACs (or assembled ECUs), they have to either stop delivering they're more expensive cars - or adapt their hard- & software to use other ICs (or get questionable stock at inflated prices, which might be an expensive option if you're building millions of cars, and expensive again if those IC have a higher failure rate due to bad storage/being recycled/...). With the tendency to do as much as possible as jit, I doubt they can bridge the duration until the production ramped up again.
- Scoundreller 6y agoI wish cars came without stereo systems, just a DIN/2x DIN slot and you slip in your preferred system. But that kind of thinking is too modular for regulators and manufacturers.
- archi42 6y agoProbably depends on the use case. On a budget car I can see where you're coming from and I agree. However, in the more expensive range I was thinking about, not so much. These can have pretty good audio systems (some even come with DIRAC these days). The "infotainment" display also usually integrates things like cameras and allowing you to control various settings*. On a 80.000US$ car you don't swap the radio and let some shop do magic adjustments - you just get the 2000US$ "high end" audio package if you care for that. *) Regarding settings, I'm a opponent to "control every little thing with the touch screen" and don't buy cars with this safety hazard. However, I can adjust the a lot of "offline" settings in mine. Toggle adaptive head lights, lane departure warning sensitivity, registered keys, and a many more features one does NOT change during driving.
- pluto9 6y agoThis can happen even without regulation, simply because the company doesn't want the risk of using a less-than-fully-tested design. I used to work at a kiosk manufacturer that would do the complete hardware design, fabricate it, put it on a truck and drive it around the city for a week straight, and then make sure nothing was broken. This was to ensure that it wouldn't break during shipping to the customer. After that, not even a zip tie was allowed to be changed. In our case, our development process was such that the software engineers didn't get ahold of it until afterwards. One time we built a machine with an internal cable that was too long and so its baud rate was too slow to perform to the customer's spec. Rather than incur the cost of re-testing with a different cable, the company spent two years trying to get the customer to accept a slower machine. Fun times.