6 ms·

The image halfway down the article showing the privacy “nutritional label” comparison from Signal to iMessage to WhatsApp to Facebook is such a beautiful case s

by zaroth 6y ago

The image halfway down the article showing the privacy “nutritional label” comparison from Signal to iMessage to WhatsApp to Facebook is such a beautiful case study in UI design. Everything in the label is “bad”. The best label is an empty label. It gives you the instant scale of the kinds of data being collected without any noise or wasted characters, and then if you want to actually look closer and see what’s going on the detailed breakdown of all the different types of tracking is striking. No legalese. No filler. No double-speak about how it’s improving the product. Just here’s what’s tracked. Perhaps inspired by how the FDA does “black box warnings” when there is crucial information they need to relate about possible dangers of a drug. Now, gushing praise aside, making sure the labels are truly accurate is the hard part. For example, I’m not sure how iMessage can claim it doesn’t track payments when I use it to actually make payments, but I guess the point is aside from the system that actually processed the payment that iMessage itself is not using any metadata of that payment. Very interesting distinction which boils down to whether a bullet item might show up in the box or not.

hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
I completely disagree. Terrible user interface. Apple’s would look a lot worse if it was split into multiple categories.
jaywalk 6y ago
Look at the privacy data for the Wallet app, because that's where the data you're referring to is tracked. iMessage itself is just a container.
mikece 6y ago
It's also misleading to have an empty box: with Signal your phone number (even if it's a Google Voice or Twilio VoIP number) must be known or the system cannot work. I hear that Signal is apparently working on a feature to allow you to set up an account without a phone number but until that time I think it's in second place behind Wire (which only requires an email address to start an account).
- daveoc64 6y ago
  The section of the privacy label highlighted in these articles is about data that apps collect that is then linked to your identity (e.g. to an account). There is a separate section of the label for listing data that is collected as part of the app's functionality, but then not linked to an account or other user identity - that is where Signal lists phone number. WhatsApp and Apple Messages collect data and link it to your account(s) with them. Signal collects your phone number, but doesn't link it to anything.
  - geocar 6y ago
    Does that mean a signal user can't change phone numbers without getting a new identity? I haven't looked at Signal in a while.
    - sswezey 6y ago
      In Signal, a phone number is your identity. So intrinsically, yes, you have to get a new identity with a new number: https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062012-New-Number-or-New-Phone https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062012-Ne...
      - geocar 6y ago
        Sorry, maybe that's not clear; I have multiple phone numbers. Does that mean I have to unregister and reregister to get my other identity? Or does Signal support multiple identities?
        jolux 6y ago
        You have to unregister and reregister the device to change phone numbers.
      - mikece 6y ago
        And this is a real problem because you don't really own your phone number: it's leased to you for as long as you pay for it but I don't think there is anything to prevent a telco (or VoIP service like Twilio) from taking that number back from you. This is another problem inherent in using a phone number as the source of your identity on a service. Email addresses are better but can still be subject to seizure. Perhaps the answer is what Session is doing: you get a GUID is that is assigned to you and that will never be assigned to anyone else.
ethbr0 6y ago
> Very interesting distinction which boils down to whether a bullet item might show up in the box or not. This is the biggest compliment to the UI Apple designed. Because it's exactly the conversation we should be having, and that users actually care about. Either you are hitting an API or you aren't. And that causes a bullet item to appear. What you're doing with that information is debatable -- and Facebook is welcome to debate that they're "really not actually using all the massive amount of information they're collecting." But users deserve to see the superset of collection clearly, as a starting point.
- daveoc64 6y ago
  > Either you are hitting an API or you aren't. And that causes a bullet item to appear. That's not really how it works. The same type of data can appear in multiple categories, and there are exceptions that mean you don't have to list certain usages. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-privacy-details/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-privacy-details/ For example, if your app doesn't ordinarily collect email addresses, but you have a contact form for support purposes that does collect them, you don't need to list email address as being collected. The privacy label doesn't really cover the app - it covers what the services that the app connects to do. An entirely offline app shouldn't need to list anything on the label, even if it does use APIs like location.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    The difference (vs Android) is a default expectation of disclosure, no? Whether enforced or declared? Google doesn't really care if its app developers lie out of the side of their mouth. Apple is saying they do. (I'm in no way an Apple fanboy, but I think they deserve kudos for changing the starting point for this discussion)
    - daveoc64 6y ago
      It's long been the case that companies legally have to disclose what data they collect and what they do with it in their Privacy Policy/Notice. That applies to services on any platform, including iOS, Android, or the web. I think that the Privacy Label is a "one size fits all" box ticking exercise, that a lot of people are going to ignore/not understand. When all of the most popular apps state that they collect a lot of data, there's no reason for people to think any given app is "bad".
amelius 6y ago
> Everything in the label is “bad”. Shouldn't it be in red then?
tidepod12 6y ago
>Now, gushing praise aside, making sure the labels are truly accurate is the hard part. For example, I’m not sure how iMessage can claim it doesn’t track payments when I use it to actually make payments, but I guess the point is aside from the system that actually processed the payment that iMessage itself is not using any metadata of that payment. Very interesting distinction which boils down to whether a bullet item might show up in the box or not. It's a classic "lies, damn lies, and statistics" scenario. The graphic might be technically correct but it's misleading in a way to spread a specific message. It irks me that this image keeps being spread all over. The thing people should actually care about isn't if iMessage stores/uses this information, but if the organization in control of iMessage stores/uses it. It's just like I don't really care if the WhatsApp app stores all this info, the actual problem is if Facebook (the company) uses it for some reason. WhatsApp (the app) just happens to be one of the avenues that this data is collected. For iMessage, sure, maybe technically iMessage isn't collecting my payment information... but Apple still gets it via the Wallet app. Maybe iMessage isn't storing my location history, but Apple still is through the iPhone location history. Maybe iMessage isn't watching my app usage history, but Apple Screen Time sure is. This applies to all of the things listed as bad under the WhatsApp label. Secondarily, the graphic is also misleading because the WhatsApp side of it becomes artificially larger since most of the items are listed twice. It immediately causes you to think "WhatsApp collects a lot more" due to the size of the box, but in reality the box could be collapsed to half the size. It just so happens that the way Apple chose to present this information makes it seem like WhatsApp collects twice the data. Personally (perhaps naively) I do trust Apple with this information more than Facebook, but the graphic is still misleading by implying that it isn't being collected and used in some way.
- snowwrestler 6y ago
  Does Apple get your payment information? I thought one of the selling points of Apple Pay is that Apple cannot collect your transaction data.
  - tidepod12 6y ago
    So to avoid confusion: there's two sources of "payment information" that might get confused with Apple. There's Apple Pay (which has no WhatsApp equivalent AFAIK) and Apple Cash (which is the equivalent of WhatsApp Pay). When using Apple Pay, Apple obviously stores your payment methods and for some cards, the Wallet app stores your transaction history. However, the Apple privacy policy for Apple Pay says they only use anonymized transaction history for their analytics. But there is also Apple Cash. Apple Cash's privacy policy says that they do collect non-anonymized information on your transactions (and communication history from messages, email, and calls!), but they promise to only use it if they deem it necessary [1]. Take that as you will. >To assist Apple Payments Inc. in preventing fraud when you are using Apple Cash to send, request, and receive money, Apple Inc. may provide it with approximate use patterns from your device about how frequently you communicate with that person by phone, email, or in Messages. No content of your communication is collected. This information is stored for a limited time, and in such a way that it is not linked to you unless the transaction with which it is associated is determined to require further analysis due to suspicious activity. Again, I do trust Apple more than I trust FB to only use it when necessary... but they are still collecting it. 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210701 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210701

by zaroth 6y ago

hobby-coder-guy 6y ago

I completely disagree. Terrible user interface. Apple’s would look a lot worse if it was split into multiple categories.

jaywalk 6y ago

Look at the privacy data for the Wallet app, because that's where the data you're referring to is tracked. iMessage itself is just a container.

mikece 6y ago

It's also misleading to have an empty box: with Signal your phone number (even if it's a Google Voice or Twilio VoIP number) must be known or the system cannot work. I hear that Signal is apparently working on a feature to allow you to set up an account without a phone number but until that time I think it's in second place behind Wire (which only requires an email address to start an account).

daveoc64 6y ago
The section of the privacy label highlighted in these articles is about data that apps collect that is then linked to your identity (e.g. to an account). There is a separate section of the label for listing data that is collected as part of the app's functionality, but then not linked to an account or other user identity - that is where Signal lists phone number. WhatsApp and Apple Messages collect data and link it to your account(s) with them. Signal collects your phone number, but doesn't link it to anything.
- geocar 6y ago
  Does that mean a signal user can't change phone numbers without getting a new identity? I haven't looked at Signal in a while.
  - sswezey 6y ago
    In Signal, a phone number is your identity. So intrinsically, yes, you have to get a new identity with a new number: https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062012-New-Number-or-New-Phone https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007062012-Ne...
    - geocar 6y ago
      Sorry, maybe that's not clear; I have multiple phone numbers. Does that mean I have to unregister and reregister to get my other identity? Or does Signal support multiple identities?
      - jolux 6y ago
        You have to unregister and reregister the device to change phone numbers.
    - mikece 6y ago
      And this is a real problem because you don't really own your phone number: it's leased to you for as long as you pay for it but I don't think there is anything to prevent a telco (or VoIP service like Twilio) from taking that number back from you. This is another problem inherent in using a phone number as the source of your identity on a service. Email addresses are better but can still be subject to seizure. Perhaps the answer is what Session is doing: you get a GUID is that is assigned to you and that will never be assigned to anyone else.

ethbr0 6y ago

> Very interesting distinction which boils down to whether a bullet item might show up in the box or not. This is the biggest compliment to the UI Apple designed. Because it's exactly the conversation we should be having, and that users actually care about. Either you are hitting an API or you aren't. And that causes a bullet item to appear. What you're doing with that information is debatable -- and Facebook is welcome to debate that they're "really not actually using all the massive amount of information they're collecting." But users deserve to see the superset of collection clearly, as a starting point.

daveoc64 6y ago
> Either you are hitting an API or you aren't. And that causes a bullet item to appear. That's not really how it works. The same type of data can appear in multiple categories, and there are exceptions that mean you don't have to list certain usages. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-privacy-details/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/app-privacy-details/ For example, if your app doesn't ordinarily collect email addresses, but you have a contact form for support purposes that does collect them, you don't need to list email address as being collected. The privacy label doesn't really cover the app - it covers what the services that the app connects to do. An entirely offline app shouldn't need to list anything on the label, even if it does use APIs like location.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  The difference (vs Android) is a default expectation of disclosure, no? Whether enforced or declared? Google doesn't really care if its app developers lie out of the side of their mouth. Apple is saying they do. (I'm in no way an Apple fanboy, but I think they deserve kudos for changing the starting point for this discussion)
  - daveoc64 6y ago
    It's long been the case that companies legally have to disclose what data they collect and what they do with it in their Privacy Policy/Notice. That applies to services on any platform, including iOS, Android, or the web. I think that the Privacy Label is a "one size fits all" box ticking exercise, that a lot of people are going to ignore/not understand. When all of the most popular apps state that they collect a lot of data, there's no reason for people to think any given app is "bad".

amelius 6y ago

> Everything in the label is “bad”. Shouldn't it be in red then?

tidepod12 6y ago

>Now, gushing praise aside, making sure the labels are truly accurate is the hard part. For example, I’m not sure how iMessage can claim it doesn’t track payments when I use it to actually make payments, but I guess the point is aside from the system that actually processed the payment that iMessage itself is not using any metadata of that payment. Very interesting distinction which boils down to whether a bullet item might show up in the box or not. It's a classic "lies, damn lies, and statistics" scenario. The graphic might be technically correct but it's misleading in a way to spread a specific message. It irks me that this image keeps being spread all over. The thing people should actually care about isn't if iMessage stores/uses this information, but if the organization in control of iMessage stores/uses it. It's just like I don't really care if the WhatsApp app stores all this info, the actual problem is if Facebook (the company) uses it for some reason. WhatsApp (the app) just happens to be one of the avenues that this data is collected. For iMessage, sure, maybe technically iMessage isn't collecting my payment information... but Apple still gets it via the Wallet app. Maybe iMessage isn't storing my location history, but Apple still is through the iPhone location history. Maybe iMessage isn't watching my app usage history, but Apple Screen Time sure is. This applies to all of the things listed as bad under the WhatsApp label. Secondarily, the graphic is also misleading because the WhatsApp side of it becomes artificially larger since most of the items are listed twice. It immediately causes you to think "WhatsApp collects a lot more" due to the size of the box, but in reality the box could be collapsed to half the size. It just so happens that the way Apple chose to present this information makes it seem like WhatsApp collects twice the data. Personally (perhaps naively) I do trust Apple with this information more than Facebook, but the graphic is still misleading by implying that it isn't being collected and used in some way.

snowwrestler 6y ago
Does Apple get your payment information? I thought one of the selling points of Apple Pay is that Apple cannot collect your transaction data.
- tidepod12 6y ago
  So to avoid confusion: there's two sources of "payment information" that might get confused with Apple. There's Apple Pay (which has no WhatsApp equivalent AFAIK) and Apple Cash (which is the equivalent of WhatsApp Pay). When using Apple Pay, Apple obviously stores your payment methods and for some cards, the Wallet app stores your transaction history. However, the Apple privacy policy for Apple Pay says they only use anonymized transaction history for their analytics. But there is also Apple Cash. Apple Cash's privacy policy says that they do collect non-anonymized information on your transactions (and communication history from messages, email, and calls!), but they promise to only use it if they deem it necessary [1]. Take that as you will. >To assist Apple Payments Inc. in preventing fraud when you are using Apple Cash to send, request, and receive money, Apple Inc. may provide it with approximate use patterns from your device about how frequently you communicate with that person by phone, email, or in Messages. No content of your communication is collected. This information is stored for a limited time, and in such a way that it is not linked to you unless the transaction with which it is associated is determined to require further analysis due to suspicious activity. Again, I do trust Apple more than I trust FB to only use it when necessary... but they are still collecting it. 1: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210701 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210701