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Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? Annexing Crimea, shooting down MH17, Meddling in the '16 US election, m

by m12k 6y ago

Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? Annexing Crimea, shooting down MH17, Meddling in the '16 US election, meddling in the Brexit vote, poisoning Navalny, meddling in the '20 US election and now this massive hack. A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society.

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PopeDotNinja 6y ago
One day the USA is gonna start getting slapped with sanctions for all the stuff it does. I don’t think they’re prepared for that.
- m12k 6y ago
  Absolutely, the world should not tolerate aggression or deceitfulness like that from any country. Oh, I nearly forgot about Russia's polonium poisoning in the UK, and the massive state-funded doping program for the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics where the majority of Russian athletes were doped. It really does feel like the past 7 years, Putin has really been testing the limits of what he can get away with, and sadly the answer so far is "as much backstabbing as he wants". Time for that to change
- koheripbal 6y ago
  That would take the USD falling from world currency reserve status - which would be the end of modern finance. That kind of economic collapse would make sanctions irrelevant.
  - dannyw 6y ago
    That’s hyperbole. The USD has been losing its power as a reserve currency, continuously, for the past several decades. See: Yuan. Modern finance still exists.
    - chii 6y ago
      tell me who wants to hold yuan as a currency (not just a little bit for liquidity of trading), instead of holding USD.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        The hundreds of millions sanctioned by the US are a good start.
      - lebuffon 6y ago
        Not so much now perhaps but a digital Yuan exists. Where that is headed is not clear but it has the possibility of disrupting the current order.
- theflyinghorse 6y ago
  US is a hegemony and the strongest nation in every respect. Who would dare slap sanctions on US without being retaliated upon? Consider the Nord Stream[1] for instance - Russians and Germans want it, US does not want it so Nord Stream is dead in the water (literally in this case). There is not a nation on this planet that could so much as think of sanctioning US and come out ahead. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream
koheripbal 6y ago
If you think these are bad, you should see the list of things they did during the Cold War. Also, how many other countries behave badly and should be "sanctioned the fuck out of"? Once you start looking at each country under a microscope, your list of countries that deviate from "interact normally" is going to get so long that you're really just walling off the G7 from the rest of the world economy - which is something Russia would love us to do.
- m12k 6y ago
  It should work like the criminal system in most countries do - do a crime, go to prison for X years. Don't do the crime again, and you get to stay out of prison. Sure it might sting a bit until countries learned that doing things like that hurts them more than it gains them. But slightly longer term, the preventive effects should kick in, and we might get some semblance of civility in international affairs. So we wouldn't wall off the G7 from the rest of the world unless they were very stupid and kept committing crimes.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    What would a country "going to prison" involve? Either way, this system is not feasible without basically a UN replacement. Until then, remember the US' long list of crimes before you call for economically crippling the Russian citizens.
    - m12k 6y ago
      Da comrade, we must discuss the US's transgressions before it would make sense to discuss Russia's. Edit: Tostino, in case it wasn't clear, this was meant sarcastically, and I precisely wanted to call out the whataboutism, since that is doing Putin's errand, whether trough ignorance or malice.
      - Tostino 6y ago
        No. It makes sense to discuss Russia's as well as the US's. Stop cutting in while we are doing the former. Start your own thread about how terrible the US is. Stop with the whataboutism.
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Rouge state? Do you mean like invading sovereign nations? Without being provoked? Without declaring war prior to invasion? And ultimately killing thousands of civilians in the process? Iraq and Afghanistan - who got super power'ed twice - would certainly agree with you. But their most recent concerns are not Russia. p.s. The USA has quite a history of election meddling as well.
- m12k 6y ago
  Absolutely, election meddling and invasions are terrible and should be punished no matter who does them. Currently Russia seems to be the primary perpetrator, so they are the ones that we should be discussing sanctions for. (They also did the most recent invasion, in Crimea). All this "but the US also!" is exactly the kind of whataboutism that Glavset trolls routinely engage in, and it's not constructive at all. Yes, the US plays dirty, as does China, but that's no reason to let Russia do so too.
  - posix_me_less 6y ago
    So you understand every state uses similar dirty tools of power. Where do you start changing that? There is no upside for any big state to unilaterally respect and build international law / UN while others take advantage. It is a mere toothless idea now, these states don't have much incentive to follow it.
vagrantJin 6y ago
> Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? I have two points on this. One. The power to sanction is losing the zest it once had. Russia has been building relationships that surpass mere political ties. They'll be fine. Two. Maybe you don't know you're governments history. Maybe you don't care. I would say ask the middle east and South Americas, the history of any non-EU country that tried building national infrastructure using loans from the world bank and dead democratically elected presidents all over the Levant, Douth Americas and Africa. Should I especially mention Libya? Did the US want to help Libya from being a top African/Arab nation? What about Venezuela? They're much closer. Are they helping Venezuela?
- m12k 6y ago
  To your first point: If you look at the kind of reaction the Magnitsky Act got from the Kremlin (cf. that meeting with Don Jr to discuss getting rid of it), it seems that sanctions very much do have an effect on the Putin regime. To your second point: What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. That's no reason not to do so with Russia as well. I'm currently reading "The Divide", so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, but also completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > should be called out for it by the rest of the world The rest of the world isn't really calling the US out on this out of fear of retaliation. Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? Knowing it's a crime and keeping quiet makes you complicit. Unless you don't actually care about the crime, just the perpetrator, which invalidates the premise of your comment which was: > A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society. Obviously it can. Other government and the hundreds of millions of people they represent prove it.
    - deleted 6y ago
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bovermyer 6y ago
Every single one of the "superpowers" is guilty of this, not just Russia. Russia's just easy to target because it's obviously authoritarian, and thus villainous by default. The problem is obvious. The solution is not. Sanctions won't help, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what WOULD help.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Russia's an easy target because of its history and its positioning against the west, the same is true of China. It's obvious that they're taking advantage of this situation - it directly weakens NATO which directly increases their power. It's not because "they're the big bad." It's because it makes the most logical sense and there is a lot of pretty easily verifiable smoke.
  - bovermyer 6y ago
    The governments of Russia and China are ideologically anathema to me personally. I try very hard to avoid my gut reaction, which is rather... final. Knowing this reaction of mine, every time I post something about either country, I have to be extra careful that I'm not indulging that.
odiroot 6y ago
Also assassinating a person in the middle of Berlin -- coincidentally a walking distance from my apartment.
Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
Can we just designate the United States of America as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? << Insert numerous citations >>. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or, to put it another way - One mans' terrorist is anothers' freedom-fighter.

by m12k 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

PopeDotNinja 6y ago

One day the USA is gonna start getting slapped with sanctions for all the stuff it does. I don’t think they’re prepared for that.

m12k 6y ago
Absolutely, the world should not tolerate aggression or deceitfulness like that from any country. Oh, I nearly forgot about Russia's polonium poisoning in the UK, and the massive state-funded doping program for the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics where the majority of Russian athletes were doped. It really does feel like the past 7 years, Putin has really been testing the limits of what he can get away with, and sadly the answer so far is "as much backstabbing as he wants". Time for that to change
koheripbal 6y ago
That would take the USD falling from world currency reserve status - which would be the end of modern finance. That kind of economic collapse would make sanctions irrelevant.
- dannyw 6y ago
  That’s hyperbole. The USD has been losing its power as a reserve currency, continuously, for the past several decades. See: Yuan. Modern finance still exists.
  - chii 6y ago
    tell me who wants to hold yuan as a currency (not just a little bit for liquidity of trading), instead of holding USD.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      The hundreds of millions sanctioned by the US are a good start.
    - lebuffon 6y ago
      Not so much now perhaps but a digital Yuan exists. Where that is headed is not clear but it has the possibility of disrupting the current order.
theflyinghorse 6y ago
US is a hegemony and the strongest nation in every respect. Who would dare slap sanctions on US without being retaliated upon? Consider the Nord Stream[1] for instance - Russians and Germans want it, US does not want it so Nord Stream is dead in the water (literally in this case). There is not a nation on this planet that could so much as think of sanctioning US and come out ahead. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream

koheripbal 6y ago

If you think these are bad, you should see the list of things they did during the Cold War. Also, how many other countries behave badly and should be "sanctioned the fuck out of"? Once you start looking at each country under a microscope, your list of countries that deviate from "interact normally" is going to get so long that you're really just walling off the G7 from the rest of the world economy - which is something Russia would love us to do.

m12k 6y ago
It should work like the criminal system in most countries do - do a crime, go to prison for X years. Don't do the crime again, and you get to stay out of prison. Sure it might sting a bit until countries learned that doing things like that hurts them more than it gains them. But slightly longer term, the preventive effects should kick in, and we might get some semblance of civility in international affairs. So we wouldn't wall off the G7 from the rest of the world unless they were very stupid and kept committing crimes.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  What would a country "going to prison" involve? Either way, this system is not feasible without basically a UN replacement. Until then, remember the US' long list of crimes before you call for economically crippling the Russian citizens.
  - m12k 6y ago
    Da comrade, we must discuss the US's transgressions before it would make sense to discuss Russia's. Edit: Tostino, in case it wasn't clear, this was meant sarcastically, and I precisely wanted to call out the whataboutism, since that is doing Putin's errand, whether trough ignorance or malice.
    - Tostino 6y ago
      No. It makes sense to discuss Russia's as well as the US's. Stop cutting in while we are doing the former. Start your own thread about how terrible the US is. Stop with the whataboutism.

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Rouge state? Do you mean like invading sovereign nations? Without being provoked? Without declaring war prior to invasion? And ultimately killing thousands of civilians in the process? Iraq and Afghanistan - who got super power'ed twice - would certainly agree with you. But their most recent concerns are not Russia. p.s. The USA has quite a history of election meddling as well.

m12k 6y ago
Absolutely, election meddling and invasions are terrible and should be punished no matter who does them. Currently Russia seems to be the primary perpetrator, so they are the ones that we should be discussing sanctions for. (They also did the most recent invasion, in Crimea). All this "but the US also!" is exactly the kind of whataboutism that Glavset trolls routinely engage in, and it's not constructive at all. Yes, the US plays dirty, as does China, but that's no reason to let Russia do so too.
- posix_me_less 6y ago
  So you understand every state uses similar dirty tools of power. Where do you start changing that? There is no upside for any big state to unilaterally respect and build international law / UN while others take advantage. It is a mere toothless idea now, these states don't have much incentive to follow it.

vagrantJin 6y ago

> Can we just designate Russia as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? I have two points on this. One. The power to sanction is losing the zest it once had. Russia has been building relationships that surpass mere political ties. They'll be fine. Two. Maybe you don't know you're governments history. Maybe you don't care. I would say ask the middle east and South Americas, the history of any non-EU country that tried building national infrastructure using loans from the world bank and dead democratically elected presidents all over the Levant, Douth Americas and Africa. Should I especially mention Libya? Did the US want to help Libya from being a top African/Arab nation? What about Venezuela? They're much closer. Are they helping Venezuela?

m12k 6y ago
To your first point: If you look at the kind of reaction the Magnitsky Act got from the Kremlin (cf. that meeting with Don Jr to discuss getting rid of it), it seems that sanctions very much do have an effect on the Putin regime. To your second point: What kind of whataboutism is this? The US does plenty of dirty deeds and should be called out for it by the rest of the world. That's no reason not to do so with Russia as well. I'm currently reading "The Divide", so I happen to recognize all those coups and dirty deeds you mention - and they are terrible, but also completely inpertinent to the question of holding Russia accountable for its actions on the world stage.
- buran77 6y ago
  > should be called out for it by the rest of the world The rest of the world isn't really calling the US out on this out of fear of retaliation. Why aren't you doing it? Are you also afraid of repercussions inside your own country if you call them out? Knowing it's a crime and keeping quiet makes you complicit. Unless you don't actually care about the crime, just the perpetrator, which invalidates the premise of your comment which was: > A government should not be able to act like that and still get to to interact normally with the rest of international society. Obviously it can. Other government and the hundreds of millions of people they represent prove it.
  - deleted 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bovermyer 6y ago

Every single one of the "superpowers" is guilty of this, not just Russia. Russia's just easy to target because it's obviously authoritarian, and thus villainous by default. The problem is obvious. The solution is not. Sanctions won't help, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say what WOULD help.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Russia's an easy target because of its history and its positioning against the west, the same is true of China. It's obvious that they're taking advantage of this situation - it directly weakens NATO which directly increases their power. It's not because "they're the big bad." It's because it makes the most logical sense and there is a lot of pretty easily verifiable smoke.
- bovermyer 6y ago
  The governments of Russia and China are ideologically anathema to me personally. I try very hard to avoid my gut reaction, which is rather... final. Knowing this reaction of mine, every time I post something about either country, I have to be extra careful that I'm not indulging that.

odiroot 6y ago

Also assassinating a person in the middle of Berlin -- coincidentally a walking distance from my apartment.

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago

Can we just designate the United States of America as a rogue state and sanction the fuck out of them already? << Insert numerous citations >>. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Or, to put it another way - One mans' terrorist is anothers' freedom-fighter.