11 ms·

I think we should have some sort of multi-tier license system so that scenic routes are sometimes limited to certain license classes. For example, Highway 1 is

I think we should have some sort of multi-tier license system so that scenic routes are sometimes limited to certain license classes. For example, Highway 1 is a beautiful drive, but it's often kind of ruined by idiots in minivans driving 5 miles below the (already low) speed limit and being too rude and self-centered to pull of into a stopping lane and let the dozens of cars behind them pass. If, for example, on Saturdays the 1 was restricted to people with a "reasonably competent" license (indicating that you're willing and able to safely drive e.g. within stated speed limit to speed limit + 10mph), with ticketing expected for people driving too slowly, that would be awesome. You could have further refinements along the lines of once a month the road is restricted to people with "very competent" licenses, indicating that they intend to drive high-performance vehicles at high speed. I think the social utility of this kind of policy would be very positive. The negative externality to mediocre drivers of not being able to drive on scenic routes occasionally isn't very large, but the benefit to good drivers would be huge!

turbinerneiter 6y ago
It would also fix the problem of people who race on public roads under the impression of being good drivers. Their families would miss them, tough.
- centimeter 6y ago
  It’s OK to enjoy doing things that are mildly dangerous. You don’t have to live your life in a cushioned bubble.
  - turbinerneiter 6y ago
    It's not ok to enjoy things that are dangerous to _other_ people. I ride a motorcycle btw.
    - centimeter 6y ago
      > It's not ok to enjoy things that are dangerous to _other_ people. Almost every activity you could possibly do, including being alive, has some negative risk externality to other people. E.g. if you are alive, you are more likely to spread a disease to someone else than if you are dead and buried in the ground. If you drive anywhere, you might possibly run into someone, but if you stayed at home they'd be safe. If your philosophy is "you can never do anything that's dangerous to someone else", it's a hopelessly bad zeroth-order approximation that would completely cripple you if you actually followed it.
      - turbinerneiter 6y ago
        You are talking about racing on public streets. The risk of hurting someone in an accident due to a mistake is very different to the risk of hurting someone after you decided it's ok to race on public streets because you believe that you are such an awesome driver. Everyone in the road has accepted a certain risk of accidents happening. If you increase everyone else's risk by racing, you are being a selfish prick. There is no way to wave this away with "it's ok to take risk for fun" or "risk is inherent to live". You are talking about risking other people's lives for a thrill, that you could easily get differently, without risking the live of bystanders! You can literally race the lemons 500 with an investment of 500 bucks!
        centimeter 6y ago
        > The risk of hurting someone in an accident due to a mistake is very different to ... Source? I really doubt this is true, due to selection effects. In any case, my original proposal was to specifically allocate road usage to different license classes at different times, which would help address your concern. > If you increase everyone else's risk by racing, you are being a selfish prick. Replace "racing" with "driving" and the statement doesn't meaningfully change. > You are talking about risking other people's lives for a thrill, that you could easily get differently Every single thing you can possibly do imposes a negative externality on someone else. "Don't do anything ever" is an idiotic approach to address this. A much more reasonable approach is to manage risk, e.g. by sectioning off road access sometimes like I proposed.
CreRecombinase 6y ago
I would argue that if "reasonably competent" means "gets in accidents less frequently and has fewer moving violations", the "idiot" in the minivan is very likely more competent than the joy rider. Also one person's scenic route is another person's shortest route, or maybe only route.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  So long as policing for revenue and fishing stops exist I don't see how moving violations matter.
- centimeter 6y ago
  That’s not what competence means.
jfoutz 6y ago
I have mixed feelings about this. At the end of the day, we all pay for the roads, we should all be allowed to use them. But I have done a little speeding on scenic routes.
bradlys 6y ago
> The negative externality to mediocre drivers of not being able to drive on scenic routes occasionally isn't very large, but the benefit to good drivers would be huge! This is literally 95%+ of people on those roads. It'd never happen. Most drivers are wildly incompetent.
- soneca 6y ago
  A competent driver I my opinion drives slower than the speed limit.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    Then you’re probably a dogshit driver.
4ndr3vv 6y ago
Speed limits have no minimum because driving on a road is situational; bad weather, unfamiliarity with the road, new driver, bad driver, personal safety limits, discrepancy in speedometers, and etc. How would you go about policing this? If there is traffic, everyone is driving under the minimum!
- selectodude 6y ago
  There are posted speed minimums on the tollways here in Chicago. You can't go below 45 in freeflowing traffic.
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Explain that to all the people trying to merge at 35.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      I have no problem with semi trucks, overloaded scrap haulers, genuine shitboxes that can't floor it without something slipping and whatnot merging at low speeds. Everyone else has no excuse.
      - nradov 6y ago
        Those vehicles shouldn't be allowed on freeways in the first place. They can use surface streets.
- hhh 6y ago
  Stateside, many interstates have minimum speeds listed.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Most states have a blanket law that 10/15/20 below the speed limit constitutes obstructing traffic and is usually a ticketable offense. In the digital age with sensors and data so cheap there's also no reason we can't set speed limits based on the Xth percentile everywhere with an automatic annual adjustment.
chickenpotpie 6y ago
Instead of spending millions to billions of dollars overhauling our traffic system to allow multi tiered licensing people can just cope with their commute occasionally being 8% slower.
- centimeter 6y ago
  It’s more like 80% slower in the case I mentioned, and it’s more about enjoyment than time. If you don’t understand this intuitively, you probably belong in the lowest license class.
  - chickenpotpie 6y ago
    your idea isn't good enough to be this condescending
sologoub 6y ago
Far simpler would be to adopt Germany-style passing rules - ticket heavily for passing on the right (or in other unsafe ways) and for not letting people pass who signal they intend to. Then if someone wants to go slow, they just have to contend with being passed and having to pull a side when someone behind them signals intent to overtake. The person overtaking will have to wait their turn to pass safely. Roads remain public and we likely reduce the number of accidents from unsafe passing/overtaking.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  The ticket for hogging the left lane would need to be substantially more expensive than most other tickets if you want cops to actually enforce it.
- gerdesj 6y ago
  Brit here who has driven a lot in both the US and DE, int al. You are talking about "undertaking" - which needs two lanes. The P(GP?) is on about people driving slowly on a scenic route and I've had a look at the road in question and it has one lane for quite a lot of its length. I'll asert: Accidents on an autobahn in DE do tend to be quite nasty when they happen. (Observation: I lived in West Germany for about 10 years and my family name literally means "german")
  - sologoub 6y ago
    The road is a single lane in each direction with fairly regularly spaced turn out lanes where the car could safely enter without slowing down a lot and let a few of the followers pass them. What happens in practice is that many professionals like truck drivers use them and most tourists do not, so you end up going with the speed of the largest RV.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    > on about people driving slowly on a scenic route and I've had a look at the road in question and it has one lane for quite a lot of its length. Quite a few places are building regular intervals of "2+1 roads" for regular passing opportunities: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero If people know they'll shortly have a chance to pass 'easily' they may become more patient.
gerdesj 6y ago
"driving 5 miles below the (already low) speed limit" I've driven at insane speeds in the past, I've also driven in ways that can only be described as nearly insane. I can't say I'm proud of that but I've still survived to 50 (so far). Most of the time I would describe my driving style as safe with occasional relapses 8) I'm a Brit so I'm not familiar with Highway 1 but a quick search seems to show it is a CA road. My first virtual run on it shows three lanes on both sides, so I'll head north to SF. OK one lane. It's a provincial coastal road with adjustments. Either get a car with a massive acceleration and overtake or enjoy the view. The speed limits are there for a good reason and I've driven a fair bit in the US (mostly FL and NY) and I don't find your limits mad. You could also lobby whoever builds roads to add another lane where you want it. On that last: in the UK we are 50 years into debating adding another lane to the A303 at some points. For some reason people are a bit wound up about the bit that goes past Stonehenge. The A303 is the super fast (lol) upgrade for the A30 (which is still there) that links London to the south west of England. It stops rather oddly at Ilminster, where it becomes the A30 again. A relative of mine did the "compulsory purchase" of land through Hampshire, Wiltshire and Somerset for the A303, back in the day. I live in Yeovil, Somerset, UK. To go north to say Bristol, I have two options: A37 or A372 and M5. Parts of the A37 are virtually Roman road with tarmac slapped on top 8) the A372 goes through Ilchester (formally a Roman town). Both of those roads are a bit slow but with speed limits from 30 to 60 mph. They are both delightful to drive in 3D - I love getting gears right with just the right amount of power (we have gears in our cars here 8) Anyway, why not calm down and enjoy the view. What I've virtually seen of Highway 1 tells me that it is a road to be enjoyed and cherished and loved.
- genocidicbunny 6y ago
  > I'm a Brit so I'm not familiar with Highway 1 but a quick search seems to show it is a CA road. My first virtual run on it shows three lanes on both sides, so I'll head north to SF. OK one lane. It's a provincial coastal road with adjustments. It is a CA road, and the section that the GP is talking about is specifically the coastal part between Santa Cruz and San Francisco, or south of Monterey. These areas are one lane in each direction. > Either get a car with a massive acceleration and overtake or enjoy the view. It is frequently impossible to overtake. Both directions of traffic tend to be fairly steady, and there's enough turns and blind spots that safely passing is not possible. The turnout sections are often too short for more than a single car to overtake the lead car, and only if its right behind the lead car -- if you're a couple cars back there's no chance. We're not even talking about insane speeds here. Doing 50 or 55mph on the 1 in those scenic parts is wonderful. That happens to also be just about the speed limit. But far too often there will be someone either taking in the scenery a little too much, or too scared to go any faster. Then you end up in a caravan of cars all doing 35-40mph on the road, and little chance to pass. At that point, it becomes hard to 'calm down and enjoy the view' -- you're no longer driving for pleasure, you're effectively stuck in heavy traffic.
soneca 6y ago
Isn’t better to drive slower on scenic roads to have more time to observe the scene? Or do you think there is an helicopter filming you from above like James Bond movies?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Some people enjoy driving spiritedly.
  - soneca 6y ago
    My impression in this case is that some people like to feel superior to other people
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Well one might say that is true about the people who are insisting that driving slowly to enjoy the scenery is the better way to enjoy a scenic highway than driving spiritedly and enjoying the drive. I think it's pretty easy for anyone who isn't highly biased to see that both approaches are enjoyable.
      - microtherion 6y ago
        But if you don't care about the scenery, you could always do your spirited driving on a different freeway with more lanes, while the drivers who are there for the scenery don't really have that option.
  - brookside 6y ago
    I've long maintained that "spirited" driving on public roads is "jackass" driving. The best thing we can do is keep each other safe. I'm guilty of driving fast in in the past. I'm glad i aged past it and found other sources of identity.
    - centimeter 6y ago
KorematsuFred 6y ago
While as a reckless fast driver I totally understand where this is coming from let me also tell you the other side of it. Road system is as socialist system as it can get. The road that you think is paid for is being used by different people for different reasons. Highway 1 in particular is very dangerous if you drive recklessly. I would rather prefer that minivan with 5 kids to home reach safely than to let me pass. The first time I drove it in my 20 year old Camry, I was scared less. Today I cross it with breeze in my jeep. > You could have further refinements along the lines of once a month the road is restricted to people with "very competent" licenses, indicating that they intend to drive high-performance vehicles at high speed. None of your ideas are bad, USA is a very large country and I think it should be possible to build private roads with the kind of system you discuss. Since the heart of innovation has not done so, something tells me that the economics will not work out. * I am an off roader and the kind of market you describe exists for off roaders. Instead of "competence" it is about vehicle's capability. Entire USA is full of back country and off roads which are open to different kind of vehicles and there is a super large community of people driving on them all the time. I think such a market for high performance fast cars does not exist.
ipodopt 6y ago
People live on highway one. Maybe not the best example. I think the Blue Ridge parkway or that road in Rocky Mountain National might be better.
masonic 6y ago
You think people would comply? People from out of county are already violating Covid travel restrictions.

turbinerneiter 6y ago

It would also fix the problem of people who race on public roads under the impression of being good drivers. Their families would miss them, tough.

centimeter 6y ago
It’s OK to enjoy doing things that are mildly dangerous. You don’t have to live your life in a cushioned bubble.
- turbinerneiter 6y ago
  It's not ok to enjoy things that are dangerous to _other_ people. I ride a motorcycle btw.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    > It's not ok to enjoy things that are dangerous to _other_ people. Almost every activity you could possibly do, including being alive, has some negative risk externality to other people. E.g. if you are alive, you are more likely to spread a disease to someone else than if you are dead and buried in the ground. If you drive anywhere, you might possibly run into someone, but if you stayed at home they'd be safe. If your philosophy is "you can never do anything that's dangerous to someone else", it's a hopelessly bad zeroth-order approximation that would completely cripple you if you actually followed it.
    - turbinerneiter 6y ago
      You are talking about racing on public streets. The risk of hurting someone in an accident due to a mistake is very different to the risk of hurting someone after you decided it's ok to race on public streets because you believe that you are such an awesome driver. Everyone in the road has accepted a certain risk of accidents happening. If you increase everyone else's risk by racing, you are being a selfish prick. There is no way to wave this away with "it's ok to take risk for fun" or "risk is inherent to live". You are talking about risking other people's lives for a thrill, that you could easily get differently, without risking the live of bystanders! You can literally race the lemons 500 with an investment of 500 bucks!
      - centimeter 6y ago
        > The risk of hurting someone in an accident due to a mistake is very different to ... Source? I really doubt this is true, due to selection effects. In any case, my original proposal was to specifically allocate road usage to different license classes at different times, which would help address your concern. > If you increase everyone else's risk by racing, you are being a selfish prick. Replace "racing" with "driving" and the statement doesn't meaningfully change. > You are talking about risking other people's lives for a thrill, that you could easily get differently Every single thing you can possibly do imposes a negative externality on someone else. "Don't do anything ever" is an idiotic approach to address this. A much more reasonable approach is to manage risk, e.g. by sectioning off road access sometimes like I proposed.

CreRecombinase 6y ago

I would argue that if "reasonably competent" means "gets in accidents less frequently and has fewer moving violations", the "idiot" in the minivan is very likely more competent than the joy rider. Also one person's scenic route is another person's shortest route, or maybe only route.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
So long as policing for revenue and fishing stops exist I don't see how moving violations matter.
centimeter 6y ago
That’s not what competence means.

jfoutz 6y ago

I have mixed feelings about this. At the end of the day, we all pay for the roads, we should all be allowed to use them. But I have done a little speeding on scenic routes.

bradlys 6y ago

> The negative externality to mediocre drivers of not being able to drive on scenic routes occasionally isn't very large, but the benefit to good drivers would be huge! This is literally 95%+ of people on those roads. It'd never happen. Most drivers are wildly incompetent.

soneca 6y ago
A competent driver I my opinion drives slower than the speed limit.
- centimeter 6y ago
  Then you’re probably a dogshit driver.

4ndr3vv 6y ago

Speed limits have no minimum because driving on a road is situational; bad weather, unfamiliarity with the road, new driver, bad driver, personal safety limits, discrepancy in speedometers, and etc. How would you go about policing this? If there is traffic, everyone is driving under the minimum!

selectodude 6y ago
There are posted speed minimums on the tollways here in Chicago. You can't go below 45 in freeflowing traffic.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Explain that to all the people trying to merge at 35.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    I have no problem with semi trucks, overloaded scrap haulers, genuine shitboxes that can't floor it without something slipping and whatnot merging at low speeds. Everyone else has no excuse.
    - nradov 6y ago
      Those vehicles shouldn't be allowed on freeways in the first place. They can use surface streets.
hhh 6y ago
Stateside, many interstates have minimum speeds listed.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Most states have a blanket law that 10/15/20 below the speed limit constitutes obstructing traffic and is usually a ticketable offense. In the digital age with sensors and data so cheap there's also no reason we can't set speed limits based on the Xth percentile everywhere with an automatic annual adjustment.

chickenpotpie 6y ago

Instead of spending millions to billions of dollars overhauling our traffic system to allow multi tiered licensing people can just cope with their commute occasionally being 8% slower.

centimeter 6y ago
It’s more like 80% slower in the case I mentioned, and it’s more about enjoyment than time. If you don’t understand this intuitively, you probably belong in the lowest license class.
- chickenpotpie 6y ago
  your idea isn't good enough to be this condescending

sologoub 6y ago

Far simpler would be to adopt Germany-style passing rules - ticket heavily for passing on the right (or in other unsafe ways) and for not letting people pass who signal they intend to. Then if someone wants to go slow, they just have to contend with being passed and having to pull a side when someone behind them signals intent to overtake. The person overtaking will have to wait their turn to pass safely. Roads remain public and we likely reduce the number of accidents from unsafe passing/overtaking.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
The ticket for hogging the left lane would need to be substantially more expensive than most other tickets if you want cops to actually enforce it.
gerdesj 6y ago
Brit here who has driven a lot in both the US and DE, int al. You are talking about "undertaking" - which needs two lanes. The P(GP?) is on about people driving slowly on a scenic route and I've had a look at the road in question and it has one lane for quite a lot of its length. I'll asert: Accidents on an autobahn in DE do tend to be quite nasty when they happen. (Observation: I lived in West Germany for about 10 years and my family name literally means "german")
- sologoub 6y ago
  The road is a single lane in each direction with fairly regularly spaced turn out lanes where the car could safely enter without slowing down a lot and let a few of the followers pass them. What happens in practice is that many professionals like truck drivers use them and most tourists do not, so you end up going with the speed of the largest RV.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > on about people driving slowly on a scenic route and I've had a look at the road in question and it has one lane for quite a lot of its length. Quite a few places are building regular intervals of "2+1 roads" for regular passing opportunities: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vision_Zero If people know they'll shortly have a chance to pass 'easily' they may become more patient.

gerdesj 6y ago

"driving 5 miles below the (already low) speed limit" I've driven at insane speeds in the past, I've also driven in ways that can only be described as nearly insane. I can't say I'm proud of that but I've still survived to 50 (so far). Most of the time I would describe my driving style as safe with occasional relapses 8) I'm a Brit so I'm not familiar with Highway 1 but a quick search seems to show it is a CA road. My first virtual run on it shows three lanes on both sides, so I'll head north to SF. OK one lane. It's a provincial coastal road with adjustments. Either get a car with a massive acceleration and overtake or enjoy the view. The speed limits are there for a good reason and I've driven a fair bit in the US (mostly FL and NY) and I don't find your limits mad. You could also lobby whoever builds roads to add another lane where you want it. On that last: in the UK we are 50 years into debating adding another lane to the A303 at some points. For some reason people are a bit wound up about the bit that goes past Stonehenge. The A303 is the super fast (lol) upgrade for the A30 (which is still there) that links London to the south west of England. It stops rather oddly at Ilminster, where it becomes the A30 again. A relative of mine did the "compulsory purchase" of land through Hampshire, Wiltshire and Somerset for the A303, back in the day. I live in Yeovil, Somerset, UK. To go north to say Bristol, I have two options: A37 or A372 and M5. Parts of the A37 are virtually Roman road with tarmac slapped on top 8) the A372 goes through Ilchester (formally a Roman town). Both of those roads are a bit slow but with speed limits from 30 to 60 mph. They are both delightful to drive in 3D - I love getting gears right with just the right amount of power (we have gears in our cars here 8) Anyway, why not calm down and enjoy the view. What I've virtually seen of Highway 1 tells me that it is a road to be enjoyed and cherished and loved.

genocidicbunny 6y ago
> I'm a Brit so I'm not familiar with Highway 1 but a quick search seems to show it is a CA road. My first virtual run on it shows three lanes on both sides, so I'll head north to SF. OK one lane. It's a provincial coastal road with adjustments. It is a CA road, and the section that the GP is talking about is specifically the coastal part between Santa Cruz and San Francisco, or south of Monterey. These areas are one lane in each direction. > Either get a car with a massive acceleration and overtake or enjoy the view. It is frequently impossible to overtake. Both directions of traffic tend to be fairly steady, and there's enough turns and blind spots that safely passing is not possible. The turnout sections are often too short for more than a single car to overtake the lead car, and only if its right behind the lead car -- if you're a couple cars back there's no chance. We're not even talking about insane speeds here. Doing 50 or 55mph on the 1 in those scenic parts is wonderful. That happens to also be just about the speed limit. But far too often there will be someone either taking in the scenery a little too much, or too scared to go any faster. Then you end up in a caravan of cars all doing 35-40mph on the road, and little chance to pass. At that point, it becomes hard to 'calm down and enjoy the view' -- you're no longer driving for pleasure, you're effectively stuck in heavy traffic.

soneca 6y ago

Isn’t better to drive slower on scenic roads to have more time to observe the scene? Or do you think there is an helicopter filming you from above like James Bond movies?

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Some people enjoy driving spiritedly.
- soneca 6y ago
  My impression in this case is that some people like to feel superior to other people
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Well one might say that is true about the people who are insisting that driving slowly to enjoy the scenery is the better way to enjoy a scenic highway than driving spiritedly and enjoying the drive. I think it's pretty easy for anyone who isn't highly biased to see that both approaches are enjoyable.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      But if you don't care about the scenery, you could always do your spirited driving on a different freeway with more lanes, while the drivers who are there for the scenery don't really have that option.
- brookside 6y ago
  I've long maintained that "spirited" driving on public roads is "jackass" driving. The best thing we can do is keep each other safe. I'm guilty of driving fast in in the past. I'm glad i aged past it and found other sources of identity.
  - centimeter 6y ago

KorematsuFred 6y ago

While as a reckless fast driver I totally understand where this is coming from let me also tell you the other side of it. Road system is as socialist system as it can get. The road that you think is paid for is being used by different people for different reasons. Highway 1 in particular is very dangerous if you drive recklessly. I would rather prefer that minivan with 5 kids to home reach safely than to let me pass. The first time I drove it in my 20 year old Camry, I was scared less. Today I cross it with breeze in my jeep. > You could have further refinements along the lines of once a month the road is restricted to people with "very competent" licenses, indicating that they intend to drive high-performance vehicles at high speed. None of your ideas are bad, USA is a very large country and I think it should be possible to build private roads with the kind of system you discuss. Since the heart of innovation has not done so, something tells me that the economics will not work out. * I am an off roader and the kind of market you describe exists for off roaders. Instead of "competence" it is about vehicle's capability. Entire USA is full of back country and off roads which are open to different kind of vehicles and there is a super large community of people driving on them all the time. I think such a market for high performance fast cars does not exist.

ipodopt 6y ago

People live on highway one. Maybe not the best example. I think the Blue Ridge parkway or that road in Rocky Mountain National might be better.

masonic 6y ago

You think people would comply? People from out of county are already violating Covid travel restrictions.