3 ms·

So how is free and fair debate supposed to work? We may not want the government to decide who to silence, somewhere in the debate people have to say "I think wh

So how is free and fair debate supposed to work? We may not want the government to decide who to silence, somewhere in the debate people have to say "I think what you just said is abhorrent and I'd rather you didn't say it in my café". Problem is, there are only a handful of cafés in the world that everyone frequents and so there's an onus on the people who run them to make a lot of decisions about who gets to say what. Add to that the cafés don't live off selling coffee or having debates, they sell adverts for other things, which complicates their incentives. I think it's awful how all the social media firms have waited until now to grow a spine, but I'm not sure what the best course would have been.

mountainb 6y ago
Liberal ideals of open debate are not very popular among the educated and powerful in the US anymore. I'm sort of ambivalent on them myself, but I do think it's worth pointing out that events have arguably destabilized in tandem with the increasing use of censorship by the social media firms. Open debate is, per liberal theory, supposed to reduce political acrimony and to serve as a 'relief valve' for public discontent that would otherwise be vented in violence and disorder. As censorship increases, you should expect more disorder and more political violence rather than less if free speech theory is correct. If free speech theory is wrong, then censorship should cool political passions and enable the state to recoup legitimacy. Reality is more complex than that, but we should at least acknowledge that our constitutional system of government assumes that free and open debate will help to maintain a peaceful and orderly republic.
mey 6y ago
These don't feel like cafés, and I think that hits the issue. They seem to be more billboards on the side of a highway. They encourage engagement but not community. I have personally found it rewarding to step off Twitter/Facebook, and into a discord/slack with some friends, keep up regular periodic video calls, and engage in moderated communities like HN. These "cafes" are small/tiny and have a stronger social construct. We know each other and are held accountable to each other. Not just pissing on the commons.
lostmsu 6y ago
> So how is free and fair debate supposed to work? IMHO, storming White House already crosses the line for a free and fair debate. And so do baseless calls to do that.

mountainb 6y ago

Liberal ideals of open debate are not very popular among the educated and powerful in the US anymore. I'm sort of ambivalent on them myself, but I do think it's worth pointing out that events have arguably destabilized in tandem with the increasing use of censorship by the social media firms. Open debate is, per liberal theory, supposed to reduce political acrimony and to serve as a 'relief valve' for public discontent that would otherwise be vented in violence and disorder. As censorship increases, you should expect more disorder and more political violence rather than less if free speech theory is correct. If free speech theory is wrong, then censorship should cool political passions and enable the state to recoup legitimacy. Reality is more complex than that, but we should at least acknowledge that our constitutional system of government assumes that free and open debate will help to maintain a peaceful and orderly republic.

mey 6y ago

These don't feel like cafés, and I think that hits the issue. They seem to be more billboards on the side of a highway. They encourage engagement but not community. I have personally found it rewarding to step off Twitter/Facebook, and into a discord/slack with some friends, keep up regular periodic video calls, and engage in moderated communities like HN. These "cafes" are small/tiny and have a stronger social construct. We know each other and are held accountable to each other. Not just pissing on the commons.

lostmsu 6y ago

> So how is free and fair debate supposed to work? IMHO, storming White House already crosses the line for a free and fair debate. And so do baseless calls to do that.