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> if direct calls to violence and to insurrection against a democracy aren't grounds to take away your megaphone, then what is? Are you suggesting that Trump m

> if direct calls to violence and to insurrection against a democracy aren't grounds to take away your megaphone, then what is? Are you suggesting that Trump made direct calls to violence and to insurrection? If so, that is patently false. From Trump's actual Tweet on December 19th: "... Big Protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!" All he did was call upon his base of supporters to exert their first amendment right to assemble. To suggest this was anything more than that is pure confabulation.

mrlala 6y ago
Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. Even Bill Barr just came out >Former Attorney General William Barr said Thursday that President Donald Trump inciting a violent insurrection on Capitol Hill the previous day was a "betrayal of his office and supporters." https://www.businessinsider.com/former-ag-barr-trump-betrayed-office-by-inciting-violent-mob-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/former-ag-barr-trump-betraye... But go ahead and hide behind "well he never ACTUALLY said it!!"
- tetrometal 6y ago
  Quote the wording you think Trump used to organize an insurrection. Juxtapose that with the wording you would be okay with him using to organize a protest. Then try to tell me that the difference between them is "insurrection".
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    As of 2:00 PM yesterday, the underlying context that several of his supporters are ready, willing, and able to commit sedition in his name is painfully obvious and to deny it would be willful ignorance. After all, they were in the act of committing it [1]. The statements that Trump made would almost unquestionably meet the Brandenburg v Ohio bar of incitement to "imminent lawless action" given that context, urging his supporters (some of whom, given the context, would be willing to commit a felony) to march to Congress to--I don't recall the exact wording--tell them what they think. If Trump gave that speech this morning, with full knowledge of what transpired, you would have a strong case that he incited to "imminent lawless action." However, that key context isn't necessarily present yesterday morning when Trump actually gave his speech. You can make a case that a reasonable person should have known that a portion of the crowd would react in "imminent lawless action" (which would meet the bar). Likely, the courts would have judged that it's just "politicians saying things they don't mean" and dismissed it on the side of caution. However, the knowledge that imminent lawless action did occur as a result may persuade some people that a reasonable person really should have been able to predict this outcome, and thus that the speech actually meets the bar for incitement. It definitely is not a slam-dunk violation, but the fact that it isn't slam-dunk clear really should give you pause. [1] 18 USC §2384 is the statutory definition of sedition. The mob yesterday meets all elements: "two or more persons" who "conspire[d]" to "by force" "delay the execution of any law of the United States." It isn't hyperbole to say that their act was sedition, it was literally sedition yesterday.
- mechnesium 6y ago
  It's intellectually dishonest to say that he incited violence, especially when there's a heavily censored video of him explicitly instructing people to go home and to be peaceful [1]. [1] https://tv.gab.com/channel/realdonaldtrump/view/we-have-to-have-peace-5ff62ceaf0a21cb861e2a3d2 https://tv.gab.com/channel/realdonaldtrump/view/we-have-to-h...

mrlala 6y ago

Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night. Even Bill Barr just came out >Former Attorney General William Barr said Thursday that President Donald Trump inciting a violent insurrection on Capitol Hill the previous day was a "betrayal of his office and supporters." https://www.businessinsider.com/former-ag-barr-trump-betrayed-office-by-inciting-violent-mob-2021-1 https://www.businessinsider.com/former-ag-barr-trump-betraye... But go ahead and hide behind "well he never ACTUALLY said it!!"

tetrometal 6y ago
Quote the wording you think Trump used to organize an insurrection. Juxtapose that with the wording you would be okay with him using to organize a protest. Then try to tell me that the difference between them is "insurrection".
- jcranmer 6y ago
  As of 2:00 PM yesterday, the underlying context that several of his supporters are ready, willing, and able to commit sedition in his name is painfully obvious and to deny it would be willful ignorance. After all, they were in the act of committing it [1]. The statements that Trump made would almost unquestionably meet the Brandenburg v Ohio bar of incitement to "imminent lawless action" given that context, urging his supporters (some of whom, given the context, would be willing to commit a felony) to march to Congress to--I don't recall the exact wording--tell them what they think. If Trump gave that speech this morning, with full knowledge of what transpired, you would have a strong case that he incited to "imminent lawless action." However, that key context isn't necessarily present yesterday morning when Trump actually gave his speech. You can make a case that a reasonable person should have known that a portion of the crowd would react in "imminent lawless action" (which would meet the bar). Likely, the courts would have judged that it's just "politicians saying things they don't mean" and dismissed it on the side of caution. However, the knowledge that imminent lawless action did occur as a result may persuade some people that a reasonable person really should have been able to predict this outcome, and thus that the speech actually meets the bar for incitement. It definitely is not a slam-dunk violation, but the fact that it isn't slam-dunk clear really should give you pause. [1] 18 USC §2384 is the statutory definition of sedition. The mob yesterday meets all elements: "two or more persons" who "conspire[d]" to "by force" "delay the execution of any law of the United States." It isn't hyperbole to say that their act was sedition, it was literally sedition yesterday.
mechnesium 6y ago
It's intellectually dishonest to say that he incited violence, especially when there's a heavily censored video of him explicitly instructing people to go home and to be peaceful [1]. [1] https://tv.gab.com/channel/realdonaldtrump/view/we-have-to-have-peace-5ff62ceaf0a21cb861e2a3d2 https://tv.gab.com/channel/realdonaldtrump/view/we-have-to-h...