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I like to think the problem is that "the nerds" have failed the rest of the people. People used to listen to us about computer stuff. Then computers became usab

I like to think the problem is that "the nerds" have failed the rest of the people. People used to listen to us about computer stuff. Then computers became usable without us. Then smartphones arrived. We gladly were relieved of our obligations, but also of our influence. It's too late to go back. People are already used to the trade-offs, convenience rules above all. People may be "sort of concerned" about privacy, but they shrug it off. If privacy was high-value, any privacy-conscious competitor would've taken the market by storm.

raziel2p 6y ago
Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better. Besides, who says "the nerds" are trustworthy anyway? They keep arguing among each other about which operating system or programming language is best, and why should we take their advice when software security vulnerabilities keep being discovered? Not disagreeing with your point - it's become too easy to just randomly click "agree" on any TOS and trade away your privacy/security for convenience - but don't make it an "us vs them" type of thing. To me, this is purely corporate interest being prioritized ahead of public needs because most politicians either have no spine or answer to lobbyists more than the common person.
- rubin55 6y ago
  What’s wrong with ‘wall’ or ‘irssi’! ;)
- MayeulC 6y ago
  I'd trust most nerds over most salesmen, but hat's what people do by clicking "I agree". Don't deal with the devil.
  - raziel2p 6y ago
    Kind of want to agree, but you're comparing the extremes on both sides. The truth is somewhere in-between, and consider that for mainstream products like WhatsApp or Windows or whatever, the general public never deal with actual salesmen, just word of mouth and marketing.
- jimbokun 6y ago
  > Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better. Um, the original WhatsApp company was pretty much run by nerds, I thought, who made a product with UX so good they organically built a user base so large that FaceBook paid $16 billion for the company?
  - 411111111111111 6y ago
    The service even cost money. A chat service for which you paid money to use. That was actually the argument why a lot of people used it, because "if you're paying for it, you know that they don't have shady business practices" The only thing that surprises me is how long this change took. I expected them to do this when they removed the subscription.
    - Leherenn 6y ago
      Wasn't it only after the first year? That meant you could try it for free which is huge for adoption.
  - millibar 6y ago
    $19 billion according to wiki :-)
  - j780 6y ago
    Then one of the whatsap co-founders initiated the Signal Foundation! See "2018–present" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29
- dkarl 6y ago
  "The nerds" tend to think logically and extrapolate without regard for reasonableness, precedent, or social norms. That makes us pretty bad at a lot of things (and we blow a lot of our credibility that way) but, it turns out, pretty good at predicting how corporations will abuse technology.
- z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
  those security issues tend to come from managerial shortcomings and pressure to meet arbitrary deadlines despite issues
randomsearch 6y ago
I think it’s simpler. Boycotts don’t work at an individual level. I have been boycotting nestle for decades. Can’t say they’ve become less evil. That’s because the marginal effect is negligible for them and strongly negative for the individual (assuming you’re a fan of Kit Kat’s). Network effects amplify the marginal impact on the individual, because they lead to a monopoly with no true competition. Sure, you can leave whatsapp for signal, but you can’t talk to that community group on WhatsApp from signal. From an individual’s point of view the market power is an absolute monopoly. The only solution to these problems is organising to the level of a mass boycott, or regulatory intervention. The former is impossible because too many people don’t care about the company’s behaviour (not because they’re ignorant, they just don’t care) and the latter is slow and a very hard and unfun pursuit for campaigners. Nothing we say to non nerds will be of sufficient magnitude on an individual level. It’d have to be collective action. Personally I’m far more worried about Facebook undermining democracy right now. That’s sufficient reason to shut them down.
- qwertox 6y ago
  I wish the EU would force messaging systems to also support interactions with XMPP or other similar open standards. There's nothing in their way to expect such a thing, except the lobbyists.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    Why would you want your government to mandate how technology works? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and the perfect way to stifle innovation
    - kroltan 6y ago
      Is it not reasonable to demand interoperability for one of the main methods of communication in the entire world? Forcing a specific standard is problematic, but it would be reasonable to ask any communication service to provide a fully documented and public API with features and access equal to the features and access of the official application. Random nerds make integrations to whatever application/protocol is in vogue, business still gets to have complete freedom in where their take their API and thus their product. --- I would even go as far as to say that every web-service should be machine-consumable in that fashion, but that's beyond the point.
simplecto 6y ago
Very well said. Convenience > Privacy, which is an interesting conundrum. This makes privacy a feature more than a USP (unique selling proposition). I predict that some "privacy" focused products and search engines will need to pivot to something more than just "we don't steal your data."
imhoguy 6y ago
There is no more nerds' voice which matters, it is marketing for some time.
fsflover 6y ago
> It's too late to go back. It's never too late. Spread the message and show people alternatives. I do.
- zepto 6y ago
  Agreed - it’s also a win even if you just get someone to use signal in addition to WhatsApp, as I was able to do today. Eventually abandoning WhatsApp will slowly get easier as alternatives propagate, and using two messengers really isn’t a problem now.
eternalban 6y ago
I disagree with where and how this industry failed the rest of people. I can quote you numerous "nerds", such as the esteemed (/s) Eric Emerson Schmidt that told us on a public podium that it is unreasonable to have "an expectation of privacy "(a technical legal phrase, btw) when using the internet. So let's not blame this on the "smart phone" and usability. In the late 80s and 90s, we had influential technologists that sold what became the Panopticon as a liberating force that would unleash creativity and usher in a new era of freedom. Most now work for one of the FANGs. The rest made a face saving effort via EFF. > If privacy was high-value, any privacy-conscious competitor would've taken the market by storm. Which VCs would fund them? VCs, even our gracious hosts YCombinator, are gate keepers of who & what gets funding. Has YCombinator, with genuine educated and well informed geeks at the helm, ever supported a decentralized proposal? Consumers can only choose from what is on the menu. And "privacy conscious" competitors were not on the menu. Or maybe I did miss these. This is possible, so can you point out which VC funded "privacy conscious" startups failed against competing venture funded centralized systems? To this day, non-geeks are not aware that it is possible for them to have their social apps while insuring their privacy.
z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
nerds didn't fail. wall street, capitalism, and braindead egotistical executives failed. blame the right people
chinathrow 6y ago
No, the nerds have not failed us. The founders of WhatsApp has failed us by selling for FU money. I was happy paying them a fee in the beginning. Then authorities have failed us by aproving the merger.
- j780 6y ago
  Maybe they didn't fail us... Wikipedia: On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation
  - chinathrow 6y ago
    They failed us to sell WhatsApp to FB while the networks effects are (at least in Europe) in full effect. I simply can't abandon WhatsApp due to this now.

raziel2p 6y ago

Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better. Besides, who says "the nerds" are trustworthy anyway? They keep arguing among each other about which operating system or programming language is best, and why should we take their advice when software security vulnerabilities keep being discovered? Not disagreeing with your point - it's become too easy to just randomly click "agree" on any TOS and trade away your privacy/security for convenience - but don't make it an "us vs them" type of thing. To me, this is purely corporate interest being prioritized ahead of public needs because most politicians either have no spine or answer to lobbyists more than the common person.

rubin55 6y ago
What’s wrong with ‘wall’ or ‘irssi’! ;)
MayeulC 6y ago
I'd trust most nerds over most salesmen, but hat's what people do by clicking "I agree". Don't deal with the devil.
- raziel2p 6y ago
  Kind of want to agree, but you're comparing the extremes on both sides. The truth is somewhere in-between, and consider that for mainstream products like WhatsApp or Windows or whatever, the general public never deal with actual salesmen, just word of mouth and marketing.
jimbokun 6y ago
> Eh, it's not like "the nerds" can build a better product in terms of UX anyway, and definitely can't market it better. Um, the original WhatsApp company was pretty much run by nerds, I thought, who made a product with UX so good they organically built a user base so large that FaceBook paid $16 billion for the company?
- 411111111111111 6y ago
  The service even cost money. A chat service for which you paid money to use. That was actually the argument why a lot of people used it, because "if you're paying for it, you know that they don't have shady business practices" The only thing that surprises me is how long this change took. I expected them to do this when they removed the subscription.
  - Leherenn 6y ago
    Wasn't it only after the first year? That meant you could try it for free which is huge for adoption.
- millibar 6y ago
  $19 billion according to wiki :-)
- j780 6y ago
  Then one of the whatsap co-founders initiated the Signal Foundation! See "2018–present" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_%28software%29
dkarl 6y ago
"The nerds" tend to think logically and extrapolate without regard for reasonableness, precedent, or social norms. That makes us pretty bad at a lot of things (and we blow a lot of our credibility that way) but, it turns out, pretty good at predicting how corporations will abuse technology.
z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
those security issues tend to come from managerial shortcomings and pressure to meet arbitrary deadlines despite issues

randomsearch 6y ago

I think it’s simpler. Boycotts don’t work at an individual level. I have been boycotting nestle for decades. Can’t say they’ve become less evil. That’s because the marginal effect is negligible for them and strongly negative for the individual (assuming you’re a fan of Kit Kat’s). Network effects amplify the marginal impact on the individual, because they lead to a monopoly with no true competition. Sure, you can leave whatsapp for signal, but you can’t talk to that community group on WhatsApp from signal. From an individual’s point of view the market power is an absolute monopoly. The only solution to these problems is organising to the level of a mass boycott, or regulatory intervention. The former is impossible because too many people don’t care about the company’s behaviour (not because they’re ignorant, they just don’t care) and the latter is slow and a very hard and unfun pursuit for campaigners. Nothing we say to non nerds will be of sufficient magnitude on an individual level. It’d have to be collective action. Personally I’m far more worried about Facebook undermining democracy right now. That’s sufficient reason to shut them down.

qwertox 6y ago
I wish the EU would force messaging systems to also support interactions with XMPP or other similar open standards. There's nothing in their way to expect such a thing, except the lobbyists.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Why would you want your government to mandate how technology works? Sounds like a recipe for disaster and the perfect way to stifle innovation
  - kroltan 6y ago
    Is it not reasonable to demand interoperability for one of the main methods of communication in the entire world? Forcing a specific standard is problematic, but it would be reasonable to ask any communication service to provide a fully documented and public API with features and access equal to the features and access of the official application. Random nerds make integrations to whatever application/protocol is in vogue, business still gets to have complete freedom in where their take their API and thus their product. --- I would even go as far as to say that every web-service should be machine-consumable in that fashion, but that's beyond the point.

simplecto 6y ago

Very well said. Convenience > Privacy, which is an interesting conundrum. This makes privacy a feature more than a USP (unique selling proposition). I predict that some "privacy" focused products and search engines will need to pivot to something more than just "we don't steal your data."

imhoguy 6y ago

There is no more nerds' voice which matters, it is marketing for some time.

fsflover 6y ago

> It's too late to go back. It's never too late. Spread the message and show people alternatives. I do.

zepto 6y ago
Agreed - it’s also a win even if you just get someone to use signal in addition to WhatsApp, as I was able to do today. Eventually abandoning WhatsApp will slowly get easier as alternatives propagate, and using two messengers really isn’t a problem now.

eternalban 6y ago

I disagree with where and how this industry failed the rest of people. I can quote you numerous "nerds", such as the esteemed (/s) Eric Emerson Schmidt that told us on a public podium that it is unreasonable to have "an expectation of privacy "(a technical legal phrase, btw) when using the internet. So let's not blame this on the "smart phone" and usability. In the late 80s and 90s, we had influential technologists that sold what became the Panopticon as a liberating force that would unleash creativity and usher in a new era of freedom. Most now work for one of the FANGs. The rest made a face saving effort via EFF. > If privacy was high-value, any privacy-conscious competitor would've taken the market by storm. Which VCs would fund them? VCs, even our gracious hosts YCombinator, are gate keepers of who & what gets funding. Has YCombinator, with genuine educated and well informed geeks at the helm, ever supported a decentralized proposal? Consumers can only choose from what is on the menu. And "privacy conscious" competitors were not on the menu. Or maybe I did miss these. This is possible, so can you point out which VC funded "privacy conscious" startups failed against competing venture funded centralized systems? To this day, non-geeks are not aware that it is possible for them to have their social apps while insuring their privacy.

z3ncyberpunk 6y ago

nerds didn't fail. wall street, capitalism, and braindead egotistical executives failed. blame the right people

chinathrow 6y ago

No, the nerds have not failed us. The founders of WhatsApp has failed us by selling for FU money. I was happy paying them a fee in the beginning. Then authorities have failed us by aproving the merger.

j780 6y ago
Maybe they didn't fail us... Wikipedia: On February 21, 2018, Moxie Marlinspike and WhatsApp co-founder Brian Acton announced the formation of the Signal Foundation
- chinathrow 6y ago
  They failed us to sell WhatsApp to FB while the networks effects are (at least in Europe) in full effect. I simply can't abandon WhatsApp due to this now.