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Meanwhile Intel Macs can't support external displays without using the discrete GPU and thermal throttling under moderate workloads. They are completely unsuit

Meanwhile Intel Macs can't support external displays without using the discrete GPU and thermal throttling under moderate workloads. They are completely unsuited for multi-monitor workloads without an eGPU. More specifically, the draw 30W of additional power that has to go somewhere. You can turn down the refresh rate, to say 10Hz or something, but it still has to use the discrete GPU. The cooling solution simply isn't handled to deal with it, as they have crammed as much processing power they can into the ultra-light chassis. Meanwhile you can play World of Warcraft whilst drawing just 25W of power TOTAL on the M1 (estimate, I don't play WoW anymore). This is while the Intel Mac is drawing 70-100 Watts from the socket for just rendering a window to the secondary display. It's got to the stage that I prefer to use my 13 inch M1 over a top of the line 16 inch provided by work. When M1 finally supports docker, I might even consider not using the 16 inch at all. It crashes due to thermals about twice a week due to the constant high temperature and eats through batteries! If anyone has a solution to this, I'm all ears, but it feels like every nay-sayer of the M1 is dismissing just how many compromises Intel based laptops (not just Macs) have. I had just as many issues with the Dell XPS, where even basic video games would become unplayable after 15 minutes due to CPU throttling down to 0.8 Ghz. The M1 has been the first laptop I have been truly happy with as a desktop user.

chrischen 6y ago
I just ditched my maxed out 16” for a “low end” M1 13” because my actual benchmarks of my day to day node compiling is seconds faster on the M1. For docker I plan on using a pi 4 or another PC to just run stuff over the network.
- tachion 6y ago
  What's the point of using Pi 4 when it is also ARM cpu? You can use the Docker beta on your M1 mac and it's going to be a better experience.
  - chrischen 6y ago
    1) problem isn’t arm. It’s m1 support. The developer preview still has some kinks. 2) free up memory on my mac. I’m working at home so using a networked computer isn’t a big deal.
rvz 6y ago
> When M1 finally supports docker, I might even consider not using the 16 inch at all. It crashes due to thermals about twice a week due to the constant high temperature and eats through batteries! I guess it would be better to wait for M2 or M3 rather than jump on a new system that has a work-in-progress developer ecosystem or un-optimised software (Even if it is faster on M1 than Intel Macs). By the time that Apple Silicon software support is optimised, the M1 Mac would already be out of date and superseded by M2 or M3 Macs.
- vetinari 6y ago
  While there is definitely a risk that M1 Macs will have the same fate as the first-gen Intel Macs (they supported only 32-bit mode, thus the support was cut quicker), the usability and usefulness is surprisingly high. Docker and Virtualbox (this one is not coming) are the only two apps that do not work for me, and worked on Intel Mac. Sure, there are many apps that run in Intel mode, but the user won't notice, unless interested in that detail.
  - nojito 6y ago
    That was only because Intel purposefully delayed 64 bit core duo.
    - bnt 6y ago
      Why? (I’m too young to know)
      - vetinari 6y ago
        I would not say that it was purposeful. Intel at the time was shipping P4 Netburst CPUs. They had all the features, like multiple cores and 64-bit support, but also one huge disadvantage: they were power hungry, and it dissipated all that heat. Definitely not something you could put into laptops. So the next generation, Core Solo/Duo, was not continuation of Netburst, but Pentium M, their mobile line which itself forked off P6 (Pentium Pro). They were released in January 2006, and were indeed 32-bit. The reason was time to market, they were basically throwing away their current arch and forking from an older branch; for the majority it was not a problem, most people were running 32-bit XP anyway, with PAE if you happened to have more than 3,5 GB of RAM (pre-SP2 XP supported that). Then, the 64-bit Core 2 Duo was released in July 2006. The unfortunate part is, that Apple announced transition to Intel in mid-2005, and shipped the products across all lines in January-August 2006, i.e. hitting the window when only the 32-bit version was available. That means, that they had to define and maintain i386 ABI for their OS just because they ever shipped Core Solo or Duo machines. If they were able to ship C2D from the beginning, they could have skipped i386 and just use amd64 ABI from the start.
vetinari 6y ago
> The M1 has been the first laptop I have been truly happy with as a desktop user. I also would be, if there were not some annoying bugs. Like external display flickering after waking up from sleep (interestingly, not when cold booted). Sometimes reconnecting the cable fixes it, but it is still an annoyance.
- tachion 6y ago
  I've experienced something like that as well. Depending on what you can do, try a different monitor and/or different cable and/or different dongle. I've managed to find a combination that doesn't do that anymore.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    Could you share your combination? I have my problem with OWC TB3 dock and Dell P2715Q. I will try an older dock that I have in the office (Kanex TB2 Express; as the name says, it is TB2, thus extra dongle needed); but playing around with different TB docks can get expensive...
    - wslh 6y ago
      I use a Dell XPS 13 with 3 external monitors via a Dell TB16 dock (which uses external power). I wonder if that setting solves these M1 issues (via the extra power) or not. I understand CalDigit docks also have external power but don't know if there can be a subtle difference.
      - vetinari 6y ago
        The OWC TB3 dock I'm using is also powered externally. Docks by CalDigit are different docks than OWC, but I think they are all using the same chipset underneath. It also does not happen with Intel Macs, which use Intel TB implementation. With M1, the TB is brand new, so some issues are to be expected. I suspect that with sleep and wakeup, there is some state mixup with previous link training, so it doesn't talk to other side the way the other side expects. This might be - or might be not - fixed with firmware updates.
zenexer 6y ago
> When M1 finally supports docker I've been using the preview beta of Docker on M1 for some time now. It works fine for me; some people have reported issues in the corresponding Docker Slack channel, but they usually stem from the particular images in use rather than Docker itself. > It's got to the stage that I prefer to use my 13 inch M1 over a top of the line 16 inch provided by work. I agree. It's really quite difficult to go back to x86 laptops. If they manage to fix the external monitor limitations with the next generation--and I'm sure they will--it will be really hard for me to justify spending money on anything else.
kbumsik 6y ago
> They are completely unsuited for multi-monitor workloads without an eGPU. I use an Intel MBP13 inch with two external monitors and it works pretty well. What am I missing?
- boardwaalk 6y ago
  I have a few year old MBP 15 with discrete GPU and a more recent MBP 13 without and neither of them break a sweat with 2 4k monitors @ 60Hz. So whatever a “multi-monitor workload” is (video editing or something?) — it’s certainly not universal.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    I have one 4k TB3 display, and my old Thunderbolt Display chained off of that one. The second monitor plus the laptop monitor add up to about the same number of pixels as the 4k. When I'm on a video call, the CPU fans are consistently on at what I believe is the lowest RPM. I would classify that as 'not breaking a sweat'. I suspect you might as well. I'm not sure if OP expects to be able to use all of GPU memory using only passive cooling, or if they have something else is going on.
- spideymans 6y ago
  Are they 4K? My 13 inch MBP sounds sometimes sounds like a jet engine when connected to a single 4K display, dropping frames like crazy, even when I’m doing nothing on the system.
  - bluedino 6y ago
    I have a 2017 nTB 13" Pro, connected to a 4K LG (the USB-C one released with the USB-C Macs), and it runs just fine. It doesn't get warm (not quite, but pretty warm) until I fire up a Zoom meeting
    - spideymans 6y ago
      That's... fascinating. I'm using the exact same setup as you and the fans randomly spin up for extended periods of time, even through several reformats and OS reinstallations over the years. I haven't been able to pinpoint any logical reason for this behaviour.
AnthonBerg 6y ago
For what it’s worth, this does not seem to present itself in all current 15/16” chassis models. I use my 2018 2.6GHz i7 15” MBP with two 4K monitors plus the laptop monitor. It’s fine for me. (But I do believe you!) If it’s useful: It’s fine here including reasonable loads on the video card, like a lot of GPU-accelerated terminals and pretty heavy use of a tiling window manager and Exposé window swishing. Or, say, Sketchup in a browser? Plus a pretty serious IntelliJ setup with the JVM’s stops pulled out, running ReasonML and C++ source compilation, and use of Docker. It is sensitive to setup, and I can get it to spin its fans up. Docker is especially prone to wasted cycles. And I did seem to have to do some SMC resetting at one point because the fans were a little eager to get going. I also think it makes a bit of difference if I charge through the right-side ports rather than the left. But the main point I’m attempting to make: I do think your case is solvable. That said, I have felt that Apple are losing their way in some respects. The fact that there are fan issues with some machines and that it’s not clear how to solve them is a problem with these machines.
- MarkyC4 6y ago
  > this does not seem to present itself in all current 15/16” chassis models I think they're referring to the thermal throttling, and not the MBP forcing the discrete card when an external monitor is connected. As far as I know, there is no way around using the discrete card for external monitors (on my 2015MBP at least, I'm pretty sure the HDMI port is wired direct to the M370X). I've solved the thermal issues by using an eGPU (like GP suggests)
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    I have a 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro connected to two displays via USB-C and DisplayPort through a Thunderbolt dock and it seems like it also forces it to discrete graphics. I'm not sure if I've ever seen it use integrated graphics when I'm docked.
    - deleted 6y ago
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- 6y ago
ps 6y ago
I own MB Pro 16 (i9, 64GB RAM) and M1 Mac Mini (16GB) and I am still perplexed why do so many people ignore or not mention the sluggishness of the macOS on M1. Switching apps is often plagued with at least noticable up to utterly annoying lag. Starting even optimized apps sometimes feels surprisingly slow. If the CPU is even under the light load (20 % reported by Activity monitor), these issues happen more frequently and overall responsivness gets much worse. It is not due to the low memory which I try to spare on Mini. Yeah, Safari is fast, even faster than on the iPad Pro. But I am developer, often use multiple browsers, many docker containers, might spin up IDE and I am certainly not the one who they made it for.
- mstolpm 6y ago
  Are you sure there isn't something wrong with your setup? Switching apps is near instant on my 8GB MBA M1, app startup is sometimes a bit laggy, but overall responsiveness is much better than on my 16GM MBP 2019.
- simonh 6y ago
  From all the reviews and comments I've seen nobody else with an M1 is seeing that kind of sluggishness. Are you maxing out memory?
- spockz 6y ago
  On my MPB M1 everything feels exquisitely responsive with the exception of the first time that apps that need to be translated by Rosetta. So it appears something might be off on your install.
- JosephRedfern 6y ago
  That seems strange to me -- are you sure there's nothing wrong with your machine? For reference, I just opened every application that's installed on my M1 MBP (16GB) and was able to switch between them with basically no lag.
- _ix 6y ago
  I am a developer too, but I haven’t noticed any of these issues on my 16GB M1 MacBook Pro. macOS has been nothing short of zippy. I wonder why you believe that everyone’s ignoring the issues you experience? Could it be some local phenomenon, instead?
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studius 6y ago
I had problems with older (Intel) Mac Pro and usage of monitors on both HDMI and display port at once. That wasn't an Intel thing, and that sort of thing could happen with any hardware that isn't tested with every combination of other hardware. I'm excited that the M1 is good, also- that it seems fast with everything, even the old Intel-specific code via Rosetta. I don't subscribe to Apple NIH[1] philosophy, but what they have made historically, barring the problem I mentioned above and a few macOS and iOS issues over the years, has been awesome. The M1 seems to follow Jobs' philosophy of making the best product. [1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here
lnanek2 6y ago
Why not just slap the thing on a cooling stand? As a developer with XCode maxing my CPU 90% of the day, I consider any Apple laptop unusable without additional cooling. Whenever I'm plugged into a monitor, I also have two fans to go by the vents. Runs better if you download a program like iStat Menus and force the fans to always be high too. Does it suck? Yes. Are fans only $10 to save a $2000 machine? Yep. Apple simply doesn't design their kit to run hard and run often. It's like those internet services that sell higher speed than they can actually give every customer. They depend on you not using it all.
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Joeri 6y ago
Is your external display on the intel mac in scaled mode? MacOS has to do a lot less work if it is in its default display resolution. FWIW I use catalina on a 2009 core 2 duo mac mini hooked up to a 1440p monitor in native mode, and the fan remains at idle when just clicking around the desktop.
rootsudo 6y ago
Same issue with the XPS and throttle, you can bypass the throttling manually through an app - and disable speedstep and one other thing... I can't recall, but I never could finish Persona 4 on my XPS. :( 9350. Agree 100% w/ 16" MBP.
- quasse 6y ago
  If you're still having this throttling problem (I have also, for about 2 years now) I finally found a solution. Open up ThrottleStop, click FlVR and check "Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits". Finally an end to the constant 0.8 GHz throttling! I think Dell must hijack those TurboBoost power limits as a way to massively underclock the processor and try for better advertised battery life.
tw04 6y ago
But the M1 ALSO can't support an eGPU, which is kind of the problem. I'm more than happy to pay for an eGPU dock (have one sitting in the corner from when my main workstation was a macbook). I know not everyone wants to HAVE to pay for an eGPU, but that's a better solution than "You can't have two monitors". My solution was to dump Apple laptops entirely (which I know a lot of people won't want to do). This Asus G14 has no issues powering 2x 4K displays without even breathing hard. No throttling in games or videos, and it supports 40GB of memory on top of a replaceable NVMe SSD.
- KingMachiavelli 6y ago
  Last I read, there is potential for the M1 to get eGPU support. Other USB-C to PCIe cards have worked so it seems to be a driver issue and not a hardware limitation. Now whether Apple can work nicely with Nvidia & AMD to get drivers, that is a big question.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    GPU over USB if 3rd party drivers can be had is certainly a technical potential (hell PCIe over Ethernet has been a thing for a while) I just don't know if I'd call it a realistic one or one worth using for this use case if it did arrive. Especially since it seems extremely likely the scaled up iterations will be able to do this properly in short order. I am curious about the other "USB to PCIe cards" though. I know there are NVMe to USB (non TB) adapters these days but I think that's largely due to the NVMe protocol being transport agnostic not that PCIe is actually interacting over the USB connection.
    - olyjohn 6y ago
      I was under the impression that Thunderbolt and the latest USB protocols actually are PCIe under the hood. This is why you had to have Thunderbolt security, because essentially you can tap deep into the hardware via a simple external port.
      - zamadatix 6y ago
superkuh 6y ago
Um. There are more options beyond PowerPC/Intel/ARM Macs. There's a whole world of PCs out there that aren't built out of corner cutting proprietary bits.
- real-dino 6y ago
  This ain't my first rodeo. I've had the following in my life * Pentium 4 * 21.5" iMac * 27" iMac * Another 27" iMac * Self built 2700K Intel * Dell XPS 9560 * Self built 2700X Ryzen * 2015 15" Macbook Pro * M1 Macbook Air For my work PCs, I had a Dell Desktop, a Asus Laptop and 2 Macbook Pros. If selecting a PC for work, I would never go for a Windows PC nowadays. You'll get the cheapest option available, filled with all the corporate crap you don't want, and locked down to oblivion. Macs have a minimum quality bar, and don't tend to get hamstrung quite as easily by company policy. It's just not worth it unless you know for a fact you'll get to choose the machine and software yourself. As for at home, I'm flexible, but I wouldn't go for Mac if I wanted to game, and now in 2020, I wouldn't go x86 if I needed battery life.
  - superkuh 6y ago
    >If selecting a PC for work Well there's your problem. Don't define your choices by what you're coerced into using at work where you only go because they pay you. Define yourself by what you choose freely as a person. It sounds like you've self built before, so why not again? It'll be far more compatible and with fewer proprietary bits than using something from Apple.
OakNinja 6y ago
I’ve tried _everything_, 5 different docks, refresh rates, different displays using different interfaces. The problem is the vram using full power. The only solution I’ve found under OSX is using an eGPU. I have both the Core X and the Core X Chroma, and the Chroma works fantastically both as a fully fledged docking station and keeping the output wattage / fans at bay. I’m almost exclusively using my 16” stationary with an external display. Another solution, albeit expensive, is buying the 16” MBP with the 5600m graphics. That card uses HBM2 memory which uses around a 4th-5th of the wattage of the GDDR6 memory of the 5500m. Around 4w instead of 19w.
- MagerValp 6y ago
  You can buy a 27" iMac together with an M1 Air for the same price as a 16" MacBook Pro and an eGPU. I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops. I finally bought a desktop again over Thanksgiving after a decade of having a laptop that functioned as a desktop. It's been a great experience. I don't do anything taxing, so I just got a little Intel NUC i5 with a 24" monitor. Having an actual desktop setup is just head and shoulders better than the "laptop as desktop" I'd been living with.
    - vb6sp6 6y ago
      I remote into a desktop from a laptop so the power is always there and I can be portable if i need to. Also has the benefit that I can work on any device that has an rdp client (android, ios, rpi, etc) The laptop only needs to drive the display(s) so anything made in last few years should suffice. Currently using a surface go.
  - gumby 6y ago
    > I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops. They want to have just one computer without worrying about synching or other coordination.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> I had just as many issues with the Dell XPS, where even basic video games would become unplayable after 15 minutes due to CPU throttling down to 0.8 Ghz. Serious Q: Have laptops ever been decent for gaming? I don't game much, but I think the form factor would seriously crush thermal capacity. I have a 15" MBP and it's fine for most dev work save Node and Typescript occasionally cause the fans to spin up for extended periods of time. Getting rid of VSCode in favor of more memory/ CPU friendly editors helped a bunch. Does your work involve a lot of 3D or graphics?
- bserge 6y ago
  They are good for gaming when manufacturers use a good cooling system. Which is, almost never. HP, Dell/Alienware, Lenovo, all of them have had overheating CPUs for over a decade. GPUs are fine half the time, surprisingly. Their testing is garbage, what they call normal use seems to be completely different from what power users call normal use. And I'm talking about "workstations", not cheap consumer laptops. Oh, but the design constraints, you'll say. OK, that's forgivable for Ultrabooks/thin-and-light laptops. Not workstations. And before the thinness fad, they were still overheating. And not because of design constraints. As an example, I'll bring the Elitebook 8760/8770w/ZBook 17 G1/Zbook 17 G2 series, all of which have the same internal design and layout. All were overheating after a while, due to thermal paste going bad (and being shit from the factory, but I digress). With the ZBook G2 it got very, very bad. Those Haswell chips with FIVR were mini nuclear reactors. HP realized they weren't "just overheating", but "extremely overheating". Their solution? The same heatsink with an extra heatpipe. Just like that, poof, problem solved. One extra heatpipe! That can't cost more than $2 in the factory. I don't know any buyer who wouldn't have paid an extra $5-10 to have a proper working $4000 workstation. Whoever is saving money on copper and screws in these companies needs to be fired and banned from ever working in companies making hardware. I'm not even going to talk about Apple, everyone knows their stuff has a ton of problems. But they're selling people on design and software, not quality engineering. And they actually solved the heat problems by going in the opposite direction with the M1 (ultra low power usage while maintaining performance instead of a good cooling system).
  - real-dino 6y ago
smoldesu 6y ago
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. I use a T460s almost religiously, and it's always hooked up to 1 or 2 external monitors. The performance hit is basically negligible, it goes from idling at 30c to 32c. Honestly not that big of a deal.

chrischen 6y ago

I just ditched my maxed out 16” for a “low end” M1 13” because my actual benchmarks of my day to day node compiling is seconds faster on the M1. For docker I plan on using a pi 4 or another PC to just run stuff over the network.

tachion 6y ago
What's the point of using Pi 4 when it is also ARM cpu? You can use the Docker beta on your M1 mac and it's going to be a better experience.
- chrischen 6y ago
  1) problem isn’t arm. It’s m1 support. The developer preview still has some kinks. 2) free up memory on my mac. I’m working at home so using a networked computer isn’t a big deal.

rvz 6y ago

> When M1 finally supports docker, I might even consider not using the 16 inch at all. It crashes due to thermals about twice a week due to the constant high temperature and eats through batteries! I guess it would be better to wait for M2 or M3 rather than jump on a new system that has a work-in-progress developer ecosystem or un-optimised software (Even if it is faster on M1 than Intel Macs). By the time that Apple Silicon software support is optimised, the M1 Mac would already be out of date and superseded by M2 or M3 Macs.

vetinari 6y ago
While there is definitely a risk that M1 Macs will have the same fate as the first-gen Intel Macs (they supported only 32-bit mode, thus the support was cut quicker), the usability and usefulness is surprisingly high. Docker and Virtualbox (this one is not coming) are the only two apps that do not work for me, and worked on Intel Mac. Sure, there are many apps that run in Intel mode, but the user won't notice, unless interested in that detail.
- nojito 6y ago
  That was only because Intel purposefully delayed 64 bit core duo.
  - bnt 6y ago
    Why? (I’m too young to know)
    - vetinari 6y ago
      I would not say that it was purposeful. Intel at the time was shipping P4 Netburst CPUs. They had all the features, like multiple cores and 64-bit support, but also one huge disadvantage: they were power hungry, and it dissipated all that heat. Definitely not something you could put into laptops. So the next generation, Core Solo/Duo, was not continuation of Netburst, but Pentium M, their mobile line which itself forked off P6 (Pentium Pro). They were released in January 2006, and were indeed 32-bit. The reason was time to market, they were basically throwing away their current arch and forking from an older branch; for the majority it was not a problem, most people were running 32-bit XP anyway, with PAE if you happened to have more than 3,5 GB of RAM (pre-SP2 XP supported that). Then, the 64-bit Core 2 Duo was released in July 2006. The unfortunate part is, that Apple announced transition to Intel in mid-2005, and shipped the products across all lines in January-August 2006, i.e. hitting the window when only the 32-bit version was available. That means, that they had to define and maintain i386 ABI for their OS just because they ever shipped Core Solo or Duo machines. If they were able to ship C2D from the beginning, they could have skipped i386 and just use amd64 ABI from the start.

vetinari 6y ago

> The M1 has been the first laptop I have been truly happy with as a desktop user. I also would be, if there were not some annoying bugs. Like external display flickering after waking up from sleep (interestingly, not when cold booted). Sometimes reconnecting the cable fixes it, but it is still an annoyance.

tachion 6y ago
I've experienced something like that as well. Depending on what you can do, try a different monitor and/or different cable and/or different dongle. I've managed to find a combination that doesn't do that anymore.
- vetinari 6y ago
  Could you share your combination? I have my problem with OWC TB3 dock and Dell P2715Q. I will try an older dock that I have in the office (Kanex TB2 Express; as the name says, it is TB2, thus extra dongle needed); but playing around with different TB docks can get expensive...
  - wslh 6y ago
    I use a Dell XPS 13 with 3 external monitors via a Dell TB16 dock (which uses external power). I wonder if that setting solves these M1 issues (via the extra power) or not. I understand CalDigit docks also have external power but don't know if there can be a subtle difference.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      The OWC TB3 dock I'm using is also powered externally. Docks by CalDigit are different docks than OWC, but I think they are all using the same chipset underneath. It also does not happen with Intel Macs, which use Intel TB implementation. With M1, the TB is brand new, so some issues are to be expected. I suspect that with sleep and wakeup, there is some state mixup with previous link training, so it doesn't talk to other side the way the other side expects. This might be - or might be not - fixed with firmware updates.

zenexer 6y ago

> When M1 finally supports docker I've been using the preview beta of Docker on M1 for some time now. It works fine for me; some people have reported issues in the corresponding Docker Slack channel, but they usually stem from the particular images in use rather than Docker itself. > It's got to the stage that I prefer to use my 13 inch M1 over a top of the line 16 inch provided by work. I agree. It's really quite difficult to go back to x86 laptops. If they manage to fix the external monitor limitations with the next generation--and I'm sure they will--it will be really hard for me to justify spending money on anything else.

kbumsik 6y ago

> They are completely unsuited for multi-monitor workloads without an eGPU. I use an Intel MBP13 inch with two external monitors and it works pretty well. What am I missing?

boardwaalk 6y ago
I have a few year old MBP 15 with discrete GPU and a more recent MBP 13 without and neither of them break a sweat with 2 4k monitors @ 60Hz. So whatever a “multi-monitor workload” is (video editing or something?) — it’s certainly not universal.
- hinkley 6y ago
  I have one 4k TB3 display, and my old Thunderbolt Display chained off of that one. The second monitor plus the laptop monitor add up to about the same number of pixels as the 4k. When I'm on a video call, the CPU fans are consistently on at what I believe is the lowest RPM. I would classify that as 'not breaking a sweat'. I suspect you might as well. I'm not sure if OP expects to be able to use all of GPU memory using only passive cooling, or if they have something else is going on.
spideymans 6y ago
Are they 4K? My 13 inch MBP sounds sometimes sounds like a jet engine when connected to a single 4K display, dropping frames like crazy, even when I’m doing nothing on the system.
- bluedino 6y ago
  I have a 2017 nTB 13" Pro, connected to a 4K LG (the USB-C one released with the USB-C Macs), and it runs just fine. It doesn't get warm (not quite, but pretty warm) until I fire up a Zoom meeting
  - spideymans 6y ago
    That's... fascinating. I'm using the exact same setup as you and the fans randomly spin up for extended periods of time, even through several reformats and OS reinstallations over the years. I haven't been able to pinpoint any logical reason for this behaviour.

AnthonBerg 6y ago

For what it’s worth, this does not seem to present itself in all current 15/16” chassis models. I use my 2018 2.6GHz i7 15” MBP with two 4K monitors plus the laptop monitor. It’s fine for me. (But I do believe you!) If it’s useful: It’s fine here including reasonable loads on the video card, like a lot of GPU-accelerated terminals and pretty heavy use of a tiling window manager and Exposé window swishing. Or, say, Sketchup in a browser? Plus a pretty serious IntelliJ setup with the JVM’s stops pulled out, running ReasonML and C++ source compilation, and use of Docker. It is sensitive to setup, and I can get it to spin its fans up. Docker is especially prone to wasted cycles. And I did seem to have to do some SMC resetting at one point because the fans were a little eager to get going. I also think it makes a bit of difference if I charge through the right-side ports rather than the left. But the main point I’m attempting to make: I do think your case is solvable. That said, I have felt that Apple are losing their way in some respects. The fact that there are fan issues with some machines and that it’s not clear how to solve them is a problem with these machines.

MarkyC4 6y ago
> this does not seem to present itself in all current 15/16” chassis models I think they're referring to the thermal throttling, and not the MBP forcing the discrete card when an external monitor is connected. As far as I know, there is no way around using the discrete card for external monitors (on my 2015MBP at least, I'm pretty sure the HDMI port is wired direct to the M370X). I've solved the thermal issues by using an eGPU (like GP suggests)
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I have a 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro connected to two displays via USB-C and DisplayPort through a Thunderbolt dock and it seems like it also forces it to discrete graphics. I'm not sure if I've ever seen it use integrated graphics when I'm docked.
  - deleted 6y ago
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6y ago

ps 6y ago

I own MB Pro 16 (i9, 64GB RAM) and M1 Mac Mini (16GB) and I am still perplexed why do so many people ignore or not mention the sluggishness of the macOS on M1. Switching apps is often plagued with at least noticable up to utterly annoying lag. Starting even optimized apps sometimes feels surprisingly slow. If the CPU is even under the light load (20 % reported by Activity monitor), these issues happen more frequently and overall responsivness gets much worse. It is not due to the low memory which I try to spare on Mini. Yeah, Safari is fast, even faster than on the iPad Pro. But I am developer, often use multiple browsers, many docker containers, might spin up IDE and I am certainly not the one who they made it for.

mstolpm 6y ago
Are you sure there isn't something wrong with your setup? Switching apps is near instant on my 8GB MBA M1, app startup is sometimes a bit laggy, but overall responsiveness is much better than on my 16GM MBP 2019.
simonh 6y ago
From all the reviews and comments I've seen nobody else with an M1 is seeing that kind of sluggishness. Are you maxing out memory?
spockz 6y ago
On my MPB M1 everything feels exquisitely responsive with the exception of the first time that apps that need to be translated by Rosetta. So it appears something might be off on your install.
JosephRedfern 6y ago
That seems strange to me -- are you sure there's nothing wrong with your machine? For reference, I just opened every application that's installed on my M1 MBP (16GB) and was able to switch between them with basically no lag.
_ix 6y ago
I am a developer too, but I haven’t noticed any of these issues on my 16GB M1 MacBook Pro. macOS has been nothing short of zippy. I wonder why you believe that everyone’s ignoring the issues you experience? Could it be some local phenomenon, instead?

deleted 6y ago

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studius 6y ago

I had problems with older (Intel) Mac Pro and usage of monitors on both HDMI and display port at once. That wasn't an Intel thing, and that sort of thing could happen with any hardware that isn't tested with every combination of other hardware. I'm excited that the M1 is good, also- that it seems fast with everything, even the old Intel-specific code via Rosetta. I don't subscribe to Apple NIH[1] philosophy, but what they have made historically, barring the problem I mentioned above and a few macOS and iOS issues over the years, has been awesome. The M1 seems to follow Jobs' philosophy of making the best product. [1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_invented_here

lnanek2 6y ago

Why not just slap the thing on a cooling stand? As a developer with XCode maxing my CPU 90% of the day, I consider any Apple laptop unusable without additional cooling. Whenever I'm plugged into a monitor, I also have two fans to go by the vents. Runs better if you download a program like iStat Menus and force the fans to always be high too. Does it suck? Yes. Are fans only $10 to save a $2000 machine? Yep. Apple simply doesn't design their kit to run hard and run often. It's like those internet services that sell higher speed than they can actually give every customer. They depend on you not using it all.

deleted 6y ago

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Joeri 6y ago

Is your external display on the intel mac in scaled mode? MacOS has to do a lot less work if it is in its default display resolution. FWIW I use catalina on a 2009 core 2 duo mac mini hooked up to a 1440p monitor in native mode, and the fan remains at idle when just clicking around the desktop.

rootsudo 6y ago

Same issue with the XPS and throttle, you can bypass the throttling manually through an app - and disable speedstep and one other thing... I can't recall, but I never could finish Persona 4 on my XPS. :( 9350. Agree 100% w/ 16" MBP.

quasse 6y ago
If you're still having this throttling problem (I have also, for about 2 years now) I finally found a solution. Open up ThrottleStop, click FlVR and check "Disable and Lock Turbo Power Limits". Finally an end to the constant 0.8 GHz throttling! I think Dell must hijack those TurboBoost power limits as a way to massively underclock the processor and try for better advertised battery life.

tw04 6y ago

But the M1 ALSO can't support an eGPU, which is kind of the problem. I'm more than happy to pay for an eGPU dock (have one sitting in the corner from when my main workstation was a macbook). I know not everyone wants to HAVE to pay for an eGPU, but that's a better solution than "You can't have two monitors". My solution was to dump Apple laptops entirely (which I know a lot of people won't want to do). This Asus G14 has no issues powering 2x 4K displays without even breathing hard. No throttling in games or videos, and it supports 40GB of memory on top of a replaceable NVMe SSD.

KingMachiavelli 6y ago
Last I read, there is potential for the M1 to get eGPU support. Other USB-C to PCIe cards have worked so it seems to be a driver issue and not a hardware limitation. Now whether Apple can work nicely with Nvidia & AMD to get drivers, that is a big question.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  GPU over USB if 3rd party drivers can be had is certainly a technical potential (hell PCIe over Ethernet has been a thing for a while) I just don't know if I'd call it a realistic one or one worth using for this use case if it did arrive. Especially since it seems extremely likely the scaled up iterations will be able to do this properly in short order. I am curious about the other "USB to PCIe cards" though. I know there are NVMe to USB (non TB) adapters these days but I think that's largely due to the NVMe protocol being transport agnostic not that PCIe is actually interacting over the USB connection.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    I was under the impression that Thunderbolt and the latest USB protocols actually are PCIe under the hood. This is why you had to have Thunderbolt security, because essentially you can tap deep into the hardware via a simple external port.
    - zamadatix 6y ago

superkuh 6y ago

Um. There are more options beyond PowerPC/Intel/ARM Macs. There's a whole world of PCs out there that aren't built out of corner cutting proprietary bits.

real-dino 6y ago
This ain't my first rodeo. I've had the following in my life * Pentium 4 * 21.5" iMac * 27" iMac * Another 27" iMac * Self built 2700K Intel * Dell XPS 9560 * Self built 2700X Ryzen * 2015 15" Macbook Pro * M1 Macbook Air For my work PCs, I had a Dell Desktop, a Asus Laptop and 2 Macbook Pros. If selecting a PC for work, I would never go for a Windows PC nowadays. You'll get the cheapest option available, filled with all the corporate crap you don't want, and locked down to oblivion. Macs have a minimum quality bar, and don't tend to get hamstrung quite as easily by company policy. It's just not worth it unless you know for a fact you'll get to choose the machine and software yourself. As for at home, I'm flexible, but I wouldn't go for Mac if I wanted to game, and now in 2020, I wouldn't go x86 if I needed battery life.
- superkuh 6y ago
  >If selecting a PC for work Well there's your problem. Don't define your choices by what you're coerced into using at work where you only go because they pay you. Define yourself by what you choose freely as a person. It sounds like you've self built before, so why not again? It'll be far more compatible and with fewer proprietary bits than using something from Apple.

OakNinja 6y ago

I’ve tried _everything_, 5 different docks, refresh rates, different displays using different interfaces. The problem is the vram using full power. The only solution I’ve found under OSX is using an eGPU. I have both the Core X and the Core X Chroma, and the Chroma works fantastically both as a fully fledged docking station and keeping the output wattage / fans at bay. I’m almost exclusively using my 16” stationary with an external display. Another solution, albeit expensive, is buying the 16” MBP with the 5600m graphics. That card uses HBM2 memory which uses around a 4th-5th of the wattage of the GDDR6 memory of the 5500m. Around 4w instead of 19w.

MagerValp 6y ago
You can buy a 27" iMac together with an M1 Air for the same price as a 16" MacBook Pro and an eGPU. I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops.
- war1025 6y ago
  > I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops. I finally bought a desktop again over Thanksgiving after a decade of having a laptop that functioned as a desktop. It's been a great experience. I don't do anything taxing, so I just got a little Intel NUC i5 with a 24" monitor. Having an actual desktop setup is just head and shoulders better than the "laptop as desktop" I'd been living with.
  - vb6sp6 6y ago
    I remote into a desktop from a laptop so the power is always there and I can be portable if i need to. Also has the benefit that I can work on any device that has an rdp client (android, ios, rpi, etc) The laptop only needs to drive the display(s) so anything made in last few years should suffice. Currently using a surface go.
- gumby 6y ago
  > I don't understand why people insist on trying to convert laptops into desktops. They want to have just one computer without worrying about synching or other coordination.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> I had just as many issues with the Dell XPS, where even basic video games would become unplayable after 15 minutes due to CPU throttling down to 0.8 Ghz. Serious Q: Have laptops ever been decent for gaming? I don't game much, but I think the form factor would seriously crush thermal capacity. I have a 15" MBP and it's fine for most dev work save Node and Typescript occasionally cause the fans to spin up for extended periods of time. Getting rid of VSCode in favor of more memory/ CPU friendly editors helped a bunch. Does your work involve a lot of 3D or graphics?

bserge 6y ago
They are good for gaming when manufacturers use a good cooling system. Which is, almost never. HP, Dell/Alienware, Lenovo, all of them have had overheating CPUs for over a decade. GPUs are fine half the time, surprisingly. Their testing is garbage, what they call normal use seems to be completely different from what power users call normal use. And I'm talking about "workstations", not cheap consumer laptops. Oh, but the design constraints, you'll say. OK, that's forgivable for Ultrabooks/thin-and-light laptops. Not workstations. And before the thinness fad, they were still overheating. And not because of design constraints. As an example, I'll bring the Elitebook 8760/8770w/ZBook 17 G1/Zbook 17 G2 series, all of which have the same internal design and layout. All were overheating after a while, due to thermal paste going bad (and being shit from the factory, but I digress). With the ZBook G2 it got very, very bad. Those Haswell chips with FIVR were mini nuclear reactors. HP realized they weren't "just overheating", but "extremely overheating". Their solution? The same heatsink with an extra heatpipe. Just like that, poof, problem solved. One extra heatpipe! That can't cost more than $2 in the factory. I don't know any buyer who wouldn't have paid an extra $5-10 to have a proper working $4000 workstation. Whoever is saving money on copper and screws in these companies needs to be fired and banned from ever working in companies making hardware. I'm not even going to talk about Apple, everyone knows their stuff has a ton of problems. But they're selling people on design and software, not quality engineering. And they actually solved the heat problems by going in the opposite direction with the M1 (ultra low power usage while maintaining performance instead of a good cooling system).
- real-dino 6y ago

smoldesu 6y ago

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. I use a T460s almost religiously, and it's always hooked up to 1 or 2 external monitors. The performance hit is basically negligible, it goes from idling at 30c to 32c. Honestly not that big of a deal.