12 ms·

The actions today were dictated from the top, by a large portion of Republican leadership. They created the lies, promoted them, and made sure the people heard

The actions today were dictated from the top, by a large portion of Republican leadership. They created the lies, promoted them, and made sure the people heard them wherever they could reach them. It's not the media's fault for taking action against these lies, and in doing so offended people so much that they had to resort to sedition. It's absurd to me to hear that people just needed to talk it out more openly! If only someone could nicely tell them the truth! As if all these people were discussing things in good faith and would listen to reality about their conspiracy theories. Must we really coddle and give a voice to dangerous conspiracy theorists that have steadily gotten more and more extreme and violent? They are being groomed and egged on by Republican leadership - surely that's the source of the problem, and one that nobody seems to be able to do anything about.

nathias 6y ago
Its a great feeling when you are the good guy, and everything the other people think that you disagree with is a conspiracy theory.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
> It's absurd to me to hear that people just needed to talk it out more openly! If only someone could nicely tell them the truth! As if all these people were discussing things in good faith and would listen to reality about their conspiracy theories. Must we really coddle and give a voice to dangerous conspiracy theorists that have steadily gotten more and more extreme and violent? Blue-collar America (manufacturing, middle class) used to be a pretty stalwart blue supporting constituency. Now this group is welcoming populism and is pretty red. We've seen not just jobs but entire INDUSTRIES shipped abroad to the lowest bidder (it's cheaper to make something with slave labor, of course). You might not care to "listen" but I think they have something interesting to talk about.
- lifeformed 6y ago
  Sure, I'm not saying people who vote republican don't have important issues in mind. But those issues aren't censored - they are mainstream non-partisan talking points. That's all I heard about for the past 6 years, from both parties. It's not exactly taboo to talk about trade. But if a party dilutes their message by embracing conspiracy theories, outlandish lies, bigotry, and authoritarian rhetoric, then what the hell? How is political discussion supposed to be in good faith anymore? If people want to talk to me about trade, they can talk to me about trade on whatever platform they want. I listen to them all the time. If they want to talk to me about how voting machines are rigged by Hugo Chavez, then they're probably not going to say, "oh, your right" when I show them facts that say otherwise.
  - caseysoftware 6y ago
    When "let us go back to work, my family is starving and we're going to lose the house!" is characterized as "they just want to get haircuts!" it's worse than censorship. It's mockery of people's suffering. Move down the hierarchy of needs a bit and listen to what people are discussing. It's not trade policy.
    - lifeformed 6y ago
      Again, that's a mainstream topic that you see everywhere. Everyone is concerned about that, it's not some secret qualm.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      Lets be clear though, those people would have been better supported such that they wouldn't have needed to make a choice between eating and the pandemic if the outgoing Federal government hadn't made such a mess of their response (and refused point blank to support state and local governments who cannot borrow).
      - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
        Local governments took as much money as they could to shore up their own finances including and especially their payrolls. Props to the food banks and other organizations that did so much with so little.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    > If they want to talk to me about how voting machines are rigged by Hugo Chavez Even if you don’t agree with that statement, are you honestly okay with our voting technology being outsourced and owned by a Venezuelan company? I think there’s some sort of “orange man bad” blindness that is getting people to accept things they otherwise would never tolerate.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jayd16 6y ago
  What does any of that have to do with storming the capital building and attempting to halt the election process? There were no protest signs looking to be heard about this issue or that, only Trump flags, union jacks and maga hats. We're supposed to believe this was a coherent protest for populism and not just sour grapes flamed by the president?
  - tremon 6y ago
    union jacks The national flag of Great Britain?
    - tremon 6y ago
      Fine, don't answer the question. I actually checked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack_(disambiguation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack_(disambiguation) before asking, but I still don't get what "union jack" refers to in this context.
      - jayd16 6y ago
        Excuse me, confederate battle flag. Its been a long day.
        tremon 6y ago
        My reaction was directed at the downvoters, not at you. Thanks for answering!
crististm 6y ago
WTF are you saying? " It's not the media's fault for taking action against these lies" The job of media is to report falsities not to take "actions" against them and assuming they know what's in people's minds
- crummy 6y ago
  Why should the media report falsities?
  - crististm 6y ago
    Honestly, that came out wrong; I meant, _report_ what the society will see as unacceptable deviations (e.g the lies) not actually lie themselves.
throwawaybchr 6y ago
Some of the Republican leadership, including the President, have presented evidence of election irregularities. Much of this evidence is worrisome, even if it does not impact a single vote. For instance - if you run a poll monitoring system and the county operations team cheers and claps when one party's monitors are asked to leave, it does not inspire confidence in the process. If you rely on a voting machine vendor whom both parties have expressed strong reservations against, it does not inspire confidence either. When people do not have confidence in the most basic aspect of democracy, you start to see what you did in DC. Regardless of party or country. Absolutely nothing has been done to assuage these concerns, and most responses have been dismissive. It is most likely going to reoccur whenever something like this happens. When you examine the specific actions here, the President's remarks immediately prior to the incident exonerate him because he said in plain language to "peacefully and patriotically protest at the Capitol". There is no way to credibly accuse him of inciting a mob to be violent, but one could certainly accuse him of inciting a protest. This would not be unusual since there have been many peaceful protests at the Capitol during supreme court hearings and gun control related protests.
- mrunkel 6y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/fact-check-electoral-certification https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/fact-check-electo...
  - plutonorm 6y ago
    I'm not a trump supporter, but I sure as hell don't trust main stream media. They lost the ability to supply me with objective fact long, long ago
    - Alkhwarizmi 6y ago
      Then go dig yourself a big hole and bury yourself deep within it. Congrats on being a bafoon. NOT all media is bad, and If you equate the kinds supported by Murdoch’s and Mercers and CNN or the like, then you are hypocritical at best.
yanderekko 6y ago
>The actions today were dictated from the top, by a large portion of Republican leadership. They created the lies, promoted them, and made sure the people heard them wherever they could reach them. None of this is tantamount to incitement, or sedition. Which is why despite whatever bloviating we're not going to see any prosecutions of public officials (at least not regarding the Republican efforts to contest the election.) This is 2020's version of "Lock Her Up!" These sorts of rhetorical exaggerations are contributing to the problem, and are scarcely better than the outright lies on the other side.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- unabst 6y ago
  Right, except the protesters were sheep led by Trump and his Republican goons. This was nothing short of a failed coup. That can't be an exaggeration. Stephen Colbert did a great job of bringing this up in his interview with ex-prosecutor Sen. Klobuchar who went straight back to work with her traitor colleagues. She dodged the question of whether more public officials should be prosecuted with a tactful deflection of laying it all on Trump. That bugged me. https://youtu.be/5PiA9mJommE?t=414 https://youtu.be/5PiA9mJommE?t=414
  - esja 6y ago
    Are you saying you think this was a failed coup? On what basis? It looks nothing like the coups I'm familiar with.
    - unabst 6y ago
      Trump has always gotten away with the things he was gravely incompetent at on the basis of his incompetence. This is just another case. He was pushing Pence to use power he didn't have. His allies all pushed the fraud narrative. And he provoked a riot that proceeded to follow his orders and storm the capital. This is what a weak coup looks like in 2020 America. None of the action above were based on preserving order or upholding the constitution or fullfilling his oath of office or protecting our democracy or being in the right. It was a power grab doomed from the start, but never the less, a power grab and a sorry attempt at a coup.
moduspol 6y ago
> As if all these people were discussing things in good faith and would listen to reality about their conspiracy theories. Was the "Russian collusion" narrative peddled 24/7 by the mainstream media for over two years a conspiracy theory? Is what we saw in Portland and at BLM riots not extreme and violent? This is not just about Republicans.
- ryanobjc 6y ago
  Regarding the Russian collusion... manafort is in jail over those crimes. Flynn and others were charged with obstruction of justice. You don't obstruct justice because it's fun and dandy. The trump campaign and admin has made huge efforts to cover up crimes relating to it's behavior with respects to Russia. What exactly are they hiding? I personally believe it isn't as deep as it seems, but it is also very serious. I don't think Trump is given orders by Russia, or that there was deep cooperation. However, even somewhat of coordination and discussions of sensitive information is criminal. So yes, the Russian collusion narrative is entirely true. The only reason Trump wasn't charged with obstruction of justice is because of a memo saying they shouldn't charge their boss, not because there isn't enough evidence. One of the big differences between what happened in Portland and DC is INTENT. The insurrectionists yesterday intended on forcing the joint session to declare Trump the winner of the presidential election. They were attempted to do by force what they failed to do at the ballot box, and at the court house. The fact they were inept and failed does not excuse them at all. That does not compare even slightly to what happened in Portland. Protests that turns into riots aren't good. However, there was not an intent to overthrow the presidential election there at all. This kind of whataboutism needs to stop.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nathias 6y ago

Its a great feeling when you are the good guy, and everything the other people think that you disagree with is a conspiracy theory.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

> It's absurd to me to hear that people just needed to talk it out more openly! If only someone could nicely tell them the truth! As if all these people were discussing things in good faith and would listen to reality about their conspiracy theories. Must we really coddle and give a voice to dangerous conspiracy theorists that have steadily gotten more and more extreme and violent? Blue-collar America (manufacturing, middle class) used to be a pretty stalwart blue supporting constituency. Now this group is welcoming populism and is pretty red. We've seen not just jobs but entire INDUSTRIES shipped abroad to the lowest bidder (it's cheaper to make something with slave labor, of course). You might not care to "listen" but I think they have something interesting to talk about.

lifeformed 6y ago
Sure, I'm not saying people who vote republican don't have important issues in mind. But those issues aren't censored - they are mainstream non-partisan talking points. That's all I heard about for the past 6 years, from both parties. It's not exactly taboo to talk about trade. But if a party dilutes their message by embracing conspiracy theories, outlandish lies, bigotry, and authoritarian rhetoric, then what the hell? How is political discussion supposed to be in good faith anymore? If people want to talk to me about trade, they can talk to me about trade on whatever platform they want. I listen to them all the time. If they want to talk to me about how voting machines are rigged by Hugo Chavez, then they're probably not going to say, "oh, your right" when I show them facts that say otherwise.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  When "let us go back to work, my family is starving and we're going to lose the house!" is characterized as "they just want to get haircuts!" it's worse than censorship. It's mockery of people's suffering. Move down the hierarchy of needs a bit and listen to what people are discussing. It's not trade policy.
  - lifeformed 6y ago
    Again, that's a mainstream topic that you see everywhere. Everyone is concerned about that, it's not some secret qualm.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Lets be clear though, those people would have been better supported such that they wouldn't have needed to make a choice between eating and the pandemic if the outgoing Federal government hadn't made such a mess of their response (and refused point blank to support state and local governments who cannot borrow).
    - ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      Local governments took as much money as they could to shore up their own finances including and especially their payrolls. Props to the food banks and other organizations that did so much with so little.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago
  > If they want to talk to me about how voting machines are rigged by Hugo Chavez Even if you don’t agree with that statement, are you honestly okay with our voting technology being outsourced and owned by a Venezuelan company? I think there’s some sort of “orange man bad” blindness that is getting people to accept things they otherwise would never tolerate.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jayd16 6y ago
What does any of that have to do with storming the capital building and attempting to halt the election process? There were no protest signs looking to be heard about this issue or that, only Trump flags, union jacks and maga hats. We're supposed to believe this was a coherent protest for populism and not just sour grapes flamed by the president?
- tremon 6y ago
  union jacks The national flag of Great Britain?
  - tremon 6y ago
    Fine, don't answer the question. I actually checked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack_(disambiguation) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Jack_(disambiguation) before asking, but I still don't get what "union jack" refers to in this context.
    - jayd16 6y ago
      Excuse me, confederate battle flag. Its been a long day.
      - tremon 6y ago
        My reaction was directed at the downvoters, not at you. Thanks for answering!

crististm 6y ago

WTF are you saying? " It's not the media's fault for taking action against these lies" The job of media is to report falsities not to take "actions" against them and assuming they know what's in people's minds

crummy 6y ago
Why should the media report falsities?
- crististm 6y ago
  Honestly, that came out wrong; I meant, _report_ what the society will see as unacceptable deviations (e.g the lies) not actually lie themselves.

throwawaybchr 6y ago

Some of the Republican leadership, including the President, have presented evidence of election irregularities. Much of this evidence is worrisome, even if it does not impact a single vote. For instance - if you run a poll monitoring system and the county operations team cheers and claps when one party's monitors are asked to leave, it does not inspire confidence in the process. If you rely on a voting machine vendor whom both parties have expressed strong reservations against, it does not inspire confidence either. When people do not have confidence in the most basic aspect of democracy, you start to see what you did in DC. Regardless of party or country. Absolutely nothing has been done to assuage these concerns, and most responses have been dismissive. It is most likely going to reoccur whenever something like this happens. When you examine the specific actions here, the President's remarks immediately prior to the incident exonerate him because he said in plain language to "peacefully and patriotically protest at the Capitol". There is no way to credibly accuse him of inciting a mob to be violent, but one could certainly accuse him of inciting a protest. This would not be unusual since there have been many peaceful protests at the Capitol during supreme court hearings and gun control related protests.

mrunkel 6y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/fact-check-electoral-certification https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/01/06/us/fact-check-electo...
- plutonorm 6y ago
  I'm not a trump supporter, but I sure as hell don't trust main stream media. They lost the ability to supply me with objective fact long, long ago
  - Alkhwarizmi 6y ago
    Then go dig yourself a big hole and bury yourself deep within it. Congrats on being a bafoon. NOT all media is bad, and If you equate the kinds supported by Murdoch’s and Mercers and CNN or the like, then you are hypocritical at best.

yanderekko 6y ago

>The actions today were dictated from the top, by a large portion of Republican leadership. They created the lies, promoted them, and made sure the people heard them wherever they could reach them. None of this is tantamount to incitement, or sedition. Which is why despite whatever bloviating we're not going to see any prosecutions of public officials (at least not regarding the Republican efforts to contest the election.) This is 2020's version of "Lock Her Up!" These sorts of rhetorical exaggerations are contributing to the problem, and are scarcely better than the outright lies on the other side.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
unabst 6y ago
Right, except the protesters were sheep led by Trump and his Republican goons. This was nothing short of a failed coup. That can't be an exaggeration. Stephen Colbert did a great job of bringing this up in his interview with ex-prosecutor Sen. Klobuchar who went straight back to work with her traitor colleagues. She dodged the question of whether more public officials should be prosecuted with a tactful deflection of laying it all on Trump. That bugged me. https://youtu.be/5PiA9mJommE?t=414 https://youtu.be/5PiA9mJommE?t=414
- esja 6y ago
  Are you saying you think this was a failed coup? On what basis? It looks nothing like the coups I'm familiar with.
  - unabst 6y ago
    Trump has always gotten away with the things he was gravely incompetent at on the basis of his incompetence. This is just another case. He was pushing Pence to use power he didn't have. His allies all pushed the fraud narrative. And he provoked a riot that proceeded to follow his orders and storm the capital. This is what a weak coup looks like in 2020 America. None of the action above were based on preserving order or upholding the constitution or fullfilling his oath of office or protecting our democracy or being in the right. It was a power grab doomed from the start, but never the less, a power grab and a sorry attempt at a coup.

moduspol 6y ago

> As if all these people were discussing things in good faith and would listen to reality about their conspiracy theories. Was the "Russian collusion" narrative peddled 24/7 by the mainstream media for over two years a conspiracy theory? Is what we saw in Portland and at BLM riots not extreme and violent? This is not just about Republicans.

ryanobjc 6y ago
Regarding the Russian collusion... manafort is in jail over those crimes. Flynn and others were charged with obstruction of justice. You don't obstruct justice because it's fun and dandy. The trump campaign and admin has made huge efforts to cover up crimes relating to it's behavior with respects to Russia. What exactly are they hiding? I personally believe it isn't as deep as it seems, but it is also very serious. I don't think Trump is given orders by Russia, or that there was deep cooperation. However, even somewhat of coordination and discussions of sensitive information is criminal. So yes, the Russian collusion narrative is entirely true. The only reason Trump wasn't charged with obstruction of justice is because of a memo saying they shouldn't charge their boss, not because there isn't enough evidence. One of the big differences between what happened in Portland and DC is INTENT. The insurrectionists yesterday intended on forcing the joint session to declare Trump the winner of the presidential election. They were attempted to do by force what they failed to do at the ballot box, and at the court house. The fact they were inept and failed does not excuse them at all. That does not compare even slightly to what happened in Portland. Protests that turns into riots aren't good. However, there was not an intent to overthrow the presidential election there at all. This kind of whataboutism needs to stop.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]