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I've used Signal for years, and for most of that time only had about three people who also used it in my contacts. My wife recently got her entire extended fam

I've used Signal for years, and for most of that time only had about three people who also used it in my contacts. My wife recently got her entire extended family to use Signal. She has always refused to use WhatsApp. They all love Signal now, and use it all the time. However, this was during a family crisis. During the Covid lockdowns, many companies I know used Signal as their preferred non corporate communication platform over WhatsApp... But again, that was a crisis. It seems to be difficult to dislodge people from their preferred platforms without some kind of external driver to adopt it.

the_arun 6y ago
I am moving to Signal too. Group by Group. May not happen over night, but in few weeks
- happymellon 6y ago
  Signal, that's another one that requires your phone number? Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
  - godelski 6y ago
    Don't they all? But good news is that they have pushed code to allow for usernames (or not even that). It isn't open to the public (or beta) yet, but it looks like the feature is going to be released fairly soon.
    - chappi42 6y ago
      Threema doesn't.
    - happymellon 6y ago
      > Don't they all? That's my point. I hate systems that require a phone number, as they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone and I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. The only option ends up being massively over the top team style chats like Rocketchat, Mattermost, Discord, or Slack. So we end up back on Hangouts. A bit shit for general family conversation. [Edit] If they do allow signing up/in with a username then I'll probably be all over it. That would be awesome news.
      - godelski 6y ago
        I'm curious why you value your phone number over your data. I'm unsure if they will allow signups without phone numbers, but they don't store that information. Signal doesn't have it. [0][1] It is very possible they go around this though. [0] https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-as-the-world-moves-forward/ https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-as-the-world-moves-forw... [1] (time-stamped to only the important part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=894&v=Nj3YFprqAr8&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=894&v=Nj3YFprqAr8&feature=yo...
        happymellon 6y ago
        Reasons: > they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone > I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. This isn't a privacy thing, this is a general tool that is fundimentally broken if I'm not on my phone. I'm not always on my phone, and my kids don't have phone numbers. They are unusable.
        godelski 6y ago
        I think these are fair points. I'll mention that I predominately use the desktop client and it works well since I frequently leave my phone somewhere else. But doesn't seem like a right fit for you until usernames and multiple device signup. Both are in the works though so maybe good for you in the future but not now.
        FalconSensei 6y ago
        If you don't have your phone with you, you can't sign in. Some services, like Whatsapp, will not work if your phone is turned off/broken
        Asraelite 6y ago
        > I predominately use the desktop client and it works well since I frequently leave my phone somewhere else. In my experience the desktop client is slow, buggy, and takes eons to start up. There's also no web version, making it awkward to use on computers other than your own. I would be more willing to switch over to Signal if it wasn't so lacking in this regard.
    - castorp 6y ago
      > Don't they all? No. Threema does not require a phone number (it uses one for the registration verification, but your account is not linked to that number).
      - FalconSensei 6y ago
        So can I use 1 number to create 2 users?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - under3 6y ago
      https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/
- ent 6y ago
  How well do Signal groups work these days? I tried moving friend groups to signal some years ago and even managed to do that for some large ones but the group chat just didn't really work. Keys changed and somehow the group got into a state where some people got messages and others didn't and the only way to fix it seemed to be creating a new group which, for large groups, isn't really an option and everyone ended up going back to whatsapp. I'd love to use signal with more people but that, and the ux around changing phones means I can't really recommend it to anyone but the most technical of my friends.
SkyMarshal 6y ago
How did the Covid lockdowns and family crisis in your examples affect the choice between Whatsapp and Signal?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  If the only way to reach you is to either install Signal or wait until tomorrow when they see you in person, people wait until tomorrow. If the only way to reach you is to either install Signal or wait a year until the lockdowns are over, people install Signal.
- MattPalmer1086 6y ago
  For my wife, she had to travel abroad and the family had to stay in contact with her. Since she absolutely wouldn't use WhatsApp, they all installed Signal, and discovered it's actually really usable now. I can only speak for why one company adopted Signal over WhatsApp, but the main reason was that the company did not want their communication metadata tracked by Facebook. They were regarded as equivalent in terms of E2E encryption and functionality. EDIT: They also did not trust Facebook entirely not to break the E2E in some way (eg cloud backups or whatever), and the message contents had to remain secure. It wasn't a huge concern, but all else being equal, Signal was the better choice.
mister_hn 6y ago
but can you do video calls on Signal?
- godelski 6y ago
  Yes, and in groups! This is a new feature though.
lodovic 6y ago
In Europe the WhatsApp alternatives are generally framed as tools for pedophiles and organized crime. Even installing them on your phone may alert LEO that you're suspect. This move by Facebook is highly troubling. edit: mass downvote! here are the links. this link talks specifically about signal protocol being used by organized crime https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-criminelen-geen-whatsapp-gebruiken-en-meer-over-hoe-de-politie-kon-meelezen~b4c7afd5/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-criminel... https://www.securityweek.com/telegram-rivaling-tor-home-criminal-forums https://www.securityweek.com/telegram-rivaling-tor-home-crim... https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/05/03/criminals-are-hiding-in-telegram-but-backdoors-are-not-the-answer/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/05/03/criminals-are-hi... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/telegram-app-drugs-sell-channels-bots-crime-graffiti-dropgangs-dark-web-a8814671.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...
- patall 6y ago
  Do you have an source for that claim. I am in Europe and have never heard that. The closest I know of is right wing groups using Telegramm for their Anti-Covid agitation.
  - lodovic 6y ago
    updated GP
    - patall 6y ago
      Sorry, I have now spent almost an hour reading 7 articles of yours and, from my point of view, none supports your claim. Framing implys for me that some other person publicly claims something although that is not really the case (i.e Telegramm is not popular with criminals), else, it is just reporting. Neither could I find anything matching your second point that installing any of these messengers might make law enforcement suspect you to be a criminal.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
  Source? My friends and family have mostly been using Signal for over a year and we never had such worry. I also know laywers, lawmakers, doctors and CEOs who are also using Signal for important communications.
fsflover 6y ago
See elsewhere in this discussion why Signal is not much better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659
- Bit32 6y ago
  Er, The third link doesn't even support your argument and the first two links are written by the same author. - Signal IS much better. It's a nonprofit, not a commerical company. There are arguments for and against centralized systems and forks of apps. The lead dev of Signal is concerned about interoperability; but still leaves users the option of doing things the way they would like with the open source code; it's just not 'supported™'
  - fsflover 6y ago
    In the third link, look at the replies. Matrix is much better than Signal, because it solves all the problems listed in my links.
aasasd 6y ago
So the solution is more crises.

the_arun 6y ago

I am moving to Signal too. Group by Group. May not happen over night, but in few weeks

happymellon 6y ago
Signal, that's another one that requires your phone number? Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
- godelski 6y ago
  Don't they all? But good news is that they have pushed code to allow for usernames (or not even that). It isn't open to the public (or beta) yet, but it looks like the feature is going to be released fairly soon.
  - chappi42 6y ago
    Threema doesn't.
  - happymellon 6y ago
    > Don't they all? That's my point. I hate systems that require a phone number, as they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone and I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. The only option ends up being massively over the top team style chats like Rocketchat, Mattermost, Discord, or Slack. So we end up back on Hangouts. A bit shit for general family conversation. [Edit] If they do allow signing up/in with a username then I'll probably be all over it. That would be awesome news.
    - godelski 6y ago
      I'm curious why you value your phone number over your data. I'm unsure if they will allow signups without phone numbers, but they don't store that information. Signal doesn't have it. [0][1] It is very possible they go around this though. [0] https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-as-the-world-moves-forward/ https://signal.org/blog/looking-back-as-the-world-moves-forw... [1] (time-stamped to only the important part) https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=894&v=Nj3YFprqAr8&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=894&v=Nj3YFprqAr8&feature=yo...
      - happymellon 6y ago
        Reasons: > they usually mean that I have a substandard experience when I'm not on my phone > I can't sign my children up so that we have a general chat tool. This isn't a privacy thing, this is a general tool that is fundimentally broken if I'm not on my phone. I'm not always on my phone, and my kids don't have phone numbers. They are unusable.
        godelski 6y ago
        I think these are fair points. I'll mention that I predominately use the desktop client and it works well since I frequently leave my phone somewhere else. But doesn't seem like a right fit for you until usernames and multiple device signup. Both are in the works though so maybe good for you in the future but not now.
        FalconSensei 6y ago
        If you don't have your phone with you, you can't sign in. Some services, like Whatsapp, will not work if your phone is turned off/broken
        Asraelite 6y ago
        > I predominately use the desktop client and it works well since I frequently leave my phone somewhere else. In my experience the desktop client is slow, buggy, and takes eons to start up. There's also no web version, making it awkward to use on computers other than your own. I would be more willing to switch over to Signal if it wasn't so lacking in this regard.
  - castorp 6y ago
    > Don't they all? No. Threema does not require a phone number (it uses one for the registration verification, but your account is not linked to that number).
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      So can I use 1 number to create 2 users?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - under3 6y ago
    https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ https://getsession.org/ https://getsession.org/
ent 6y ago
How well do Signal groups work these days? I tried moving friend groups to signal some years ago and even managed to do that for some large ones but the group chat just didn't really work. Keys changed and somehow the group got into a state where some people got messages and others didn't and the only way to fix it seemed to be creating a new group which, for large groups, isn't really an option and everyone ended up going back to whatsapp. I'd love to use signal with more people but that, and the ux around changing phones means I can't really recommend it to anyone but the most technical of my friends.

SkyMarshal 6y ago

How did the Covid lockdowns and family crisis in your examples affect the choice between Whatsapp and Signal?

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
If the only way to reach you is to either install Signal or wait until tomorrow when they see you in person, people wait until tomorrow. If the only way to reach you is to either install Signal or wait a year until the lockdowns are over, people install Signal.
MattPalmer1086 6y ago
For my wife, she had to travel abroad and the family had to stay in contact with her. Since she absolutely wouldn't use WhatsApp, they all installed Signal, and discovered it's actually really usable now. I can only speak for why one company adopted Signal over WhatsApp, but the main reason was that the company did not want their communication metadata tracked by Facebook. They were regarded as equivalent in terms of E2E encryption and functionality. EDIT: They also did not trust Facebook entirely not to break the E2E in some way (eg cloud backups or whatever), and the message contents had to remain secure. It wasn't a huge concern, but all else being equal, Signal was the better choice.

mister_hn 6y ago

but can you do video calls on Signal?

godelski 6y ago
Yes, and in groups! This is a new feature though.

lodovic 6y ago

In Europe the WhatsApp alternatives are generally framed as tools for pedophiles and organized crime. Even installing them on your phone may alert LEO that you're suspect. This move by Facebook is highly troubling. edit: mass downvote! here are the links. this link talks specifically about signal protocol being used by organized crime https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-criminelen-geen-whatsapp-gebruiken-en-meer-over-hoe-de-politie-kon-meelezen~b4c7afd5/ https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-criminel... https://www.securityweek.com/telegram-rivaling-tor-home-criminal-forums https://www.securityweek.com/telegram-rivaling-tor-home-crim... https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/05/03/criminals-are-hiding-in-telegram-but-backdoors-are-not-the-answer/ https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2019/05/03/criminals-are-hi... https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/telegram-app-drugs-sell-channels-bots-crime-graffiti-dropgangs-dark-web-a8814671.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

patall 6y ago
Do you have an source for that claim. I am in Europe and have never heard that. The closest I know of is right wing groups using Telegramm for their Anti-Covid agitation.
- lodovic 6y ago
  updated GP
  - patall 6y ago
    Sorry, I have now spent almost an hour reading 7 articles of yours and, from my point of view, none supports your claim. Framing implys for me that some other person publicly claims something although that is not really the case (i.e Telegramm is not popular with criminals), else, it is just reporting. Neither could I find anything matching your second point that installing any of these messengers might make law enforcement suspect you to be a criminal.
rcMgD2BwE72F 6y ago
Source? My friends and family have mostly been using Signal for over a year and we never had such worry. I also know laywers, lawmakers, doctors and CEOs who are also using Signal for important communications.

fsflover 6y ago

See elsewhere in this discussion why Signal is not much better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25669657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25668659

Bit32 6y ago
Er, The third link doesn't even support your argument and the first two links are written by the same author. - Signal IS much better. It's a nonprofit, not a commerical company. There are arguments for and against centralized systems and forks of apps. The lead dev of Signal is concerned about interoperability; but still leaves users the option of doing things the way they would like with the open source code; it's just not 'supported™'
- fsflover 6y ago
  In the third link, look at the replies. Matrix is much better than Signal, because it solves all the problems listed in my links.

aasasd 6y ago

So the solution is more crises.