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Put simply, I don't know what to believe. As an IT security worker, I have absolutely no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electro

Put simply, I don't know what to believe. As an IT security worker, I have absolutely no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electronic voting machines. We need to restore trust in the system. An idiot needs to be able to understand and audit it. Until that happens, there will always be people who think it's rigged, and politicians will always exploit that.

razius 6y ago
Two issues that raised red flags for me: - All logs deleted from the machines - Machines are connected to the internet
- titzer 6y ago
  This is complete BS. Most, if not all, states require paper records from voting machines. And no, they aren't internet-connected.
  - razius 6y ago
    - https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/paperless-voting-machines-eac-survey-1385307 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/paperless-voting-m... - https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1333493400083984384 https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/13334934000839843... This is why we would need an official investigation.
    - titzer 6y ago
      Like I said, most states use a paper trail. It would be great to do a full, transparent audit of the complete system and apply national standards. Let's do it! That's part of the point of the Federal Elections Commission, but that's been politicized and intentionally crippled. But make no mistake, people who are crying about massive fraud are not actually serious about doing any of that.
      - ghostwriter 6y ago
        > Like I said, most states use a paper trail. Most states don't matter, the swing states do. > But make no mistake, people who are crying about massive fraud are not actually serious about doing any of that. Those people signed affidavits, what papers did you sign that make you liable under the penalty of perjury to get any weight and seriousness to your position?
        titzer 6y ago
        People are holding the Capitol building by force, and you think they are worried about consequences from signing paper?
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        That's what you get when the SCOTUS dismisses the case by one sentence without looking into those affidavits. Those 72 million citizens that supported and approved of the formal court hearings and wanted investigations to happen are not silent servants of those who sit in the Capitol building during normal days. When the due process is ignored by one side, another side has a full right to demand the due process by acting physically. They have this right granted to them by the US Constitution, which is above anyone in the Capitol building.
        colejohnson66 6y ago
        I’m not aware of a line in the Constitution allowing what is happening. The Declaration of Independence mentions it, but not the Constitution.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        The Declaration sets principles behind a just and fair government, the Constitution outlines how this just government would function (it would function lawfully). When the government doesn't follow the principles and doesn't apply the required due process when it needs to be applied, it gets outisde the notion of a just government. The right to the current actions lies in the Constitution itself, as it doesn't allow for the current government to exist in its current form (doesn't function lawfully), and it doesn't fit the notion of a just government.
    - ehsankia 6y ago
      This is misleading. Every single state that is under investigation right now (swing state) is part of the "70%" that has paper trail. Also, every single one of the "30%" paperless states except one (NJ) was won by Trump. So if there was voter machine hacking, it was pro-Trump.
  - MrRiddle 6y ago
    "Most" is enough, right?
    - ehsankia 6y ago
      All but 1 of the states that have paperless machines were won by Trump. None of the "contested" states have paperless machines. So while I agree that every state should have paper trails, the argument is irrelevant in for this specific election discussion.
paganel 6y ago
The 2000 elections were most probably stolen, but Al Gore played the safer card and accepted defeat. Since then I don't see how anyone can trust the process.
- hansthehorse 6y ago
  Joe Kennedy almost certainly stole the 1960 election for his son. Nixon knew this but decided it wasn't worth the national grief to fight it.
  - tubbyjr 6y ago
    This is why I love American Democracy, especially when they invade other countries to enforce the democratic process.
- travisoneill1 6y ago
  How so? The vote differential from FL was clearly within the margin of error of the counting methods, but that only suggests the possibility of a counting error, not a steal.
  - jMyles 6y ago
    This argument only works if you ignore the voters who were improperly purged from the voter rolls for having the same or similar names as convicted felons.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    Gore lost because of the poor design of the Florida butterfly ballot. The official 537 vote margin is a political expedience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia... > About 19,000 ballots were spoiled because of overvotes (two votes in the same race), compared to 3000 in 1996.[18]:215–221 According to a 2001 study in the American Political Science Review, the voting errors caused by the butterfly ballot cost Gore the election: "Had PBC used a ballot format in the presidential race that did not lead to systematic biased voting errors, our findings suggest that, other things equal, Al Gore would have won a majority of the officially certified votes in Florida." And yet the protests then were level-headed, largely peaceful, and fully justifiable.
hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
> I have absolutely no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electronic voting machines. This is mostly not true. See https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat... . Almost every state produces a voter-readable paper trail for all votes.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- MrRiddle 6y ago
  "Almost every state" is enough these days?
  - rcxdude 6y ago
    It's not, but the only state without a paper trail for everything which went Biden in the last election is New Jersey (The other 7 states which have some level of exposure to digital manipulation voted Trump).
    - tubbyjr 6y ago
      Huh, who woulda thunk that, where they had checks & balances it went for Trump. What a thing coincidence is haha
      - rcxdude 6y ago
        That's the exact opposite of what I was saying.
      - Shared404 6y ago
        You mean the areas that did not have a verifiable paper trail went for Trump? Do you mean to imply tampering is "checks & balances"?
  - tubbyjr 6y ago
    "I do not recall" will be his next line
jariel 6y ago
"no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electronic voting machines." The voting machines produce a paper ballot, which can be recounted and audited. The elections were fine. 100% of the issue is derived from Trump's attempt to sow doubt, and of course, his enablers.
jmull 6y ago
Did you take any comfort from the Georgia hand-count?

razius 6y ago

Two issues that raised red flags for me: - All logs deleted from the machines - Machines are connected to the internet

titzer 6y ago
This is complete BS. Most, if not all, states require paper records from voting machines. And no, they aren't internet-connected.
- razius 6y ago
  - https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/paperless-voting-machines-eac-survey-1385307 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/27/paperless-voting-m... - https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1333493400083984384 https://twitter.com/KanekoaTheGreat/status/13334934000839843... This is why we would need an official investigation.
  - titzer 6y ago
    Like I said, most states use a paper trail. It would be great to do a full, transparent audit of the complete system and apply national standards. Let's do it! That's part of the point of the Federal Elections Commission, but that's been politicized and intentionally crippled. But make no mistake, people who are crying about massive fraud are not actually serious about doing any of that.
    - ghostwriter 6y ago
      > Like I said, most states use a paper trail. Most states don't matter, the swing states do. > But make no mistake, people who are crying about massive fraud are not actually serious about doing any of that. Those people signed affidavits, what papers did you sign that make you liable under the penalty of perjury to get any weight and seriousness to your position?
      - titzer 6y ago
        People are holding the Capitol building by force, and you think they are worried about consequences from signing paper?
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        That's what you get when the SCOTUS dismisses the case by one sentence without looking into those affidavits. Those 72 million citizens that supported and approved of the formal court hearings and wanted investigations to happen are not silent servants of those who sit in the Capitol building during normal days. When the due process is ignored by one side, another side has a full right to demand the due process by acting physically. They have this right granted to them by the US Constitution, which is above anyone in the Capitol building.
        colejohnson66 6y ago
        I’m not aware of a line in the Constitution allowing what is happening. The Declaration of Independence mentions it, but not the Constitution.
        ghostwriter 6y ago
        The Declaration sets principles behind a just and fair government, the Constitution outlines how this just government would function (it would function lawfully). When the government doesn't follow the principles and doesn't apply the required due process when it needs to be applied, it gets outisde the notion of a just government. The right to the current actions lies in the Constitution itself, as it doesn't allow for the current government to exist in its current form (doesn't function lawfully), and it doesn't fit the notion of a just government.
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    This is misleading. Every single state that is under investigation right now (swing state) is part of the "70%" that has paper trail. Also, every single one of the "30%" paperless states except one (NJ) was won by Trump. So if there was voter machine hacking, it was pro-Trump.
- MrRiddle 6y ago
  "Most" is enough, right?
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    All but 1 of the states that have paperless machines were won by Trump. None of the "contested" states have paperless machines. So while I agree that every state should have paper trails, the argument is irrelevant in for this specific election discussion.

paganel 6y ago

The 2000 elections were most probably stolen, but Al Gore played the safer card and accepted defeat. Since then I don't see how anyone can trust the process.

hansthehorse 6y ago
Joe Kennedy almost certainly stole the 1960 election for his son. Nixon knew this but decided it wasn't worth the national grief to fight it.
- tubbyjr 6y ago
  This is why I love American Democracy, especially when they invade other countries to enforce the democratic process.
travisoneill1 6y ago
How so? The vote differential from FL was clearly within the margin of error of the counting methods, but that only suggests the possibility of a counting error, not a steal.
- jMyles 6y ago
  This argument only works if you ignore the voters who were improperly purged from the voter rolls for having the same or similar names as convicted felons.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Gore lost because of the poor design of the Florida butterfly ballot. The official 537 vote margin is a political expedience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia... > About 19,000 ballots were spoiled because of overvotes (two votes in the same race), compared to 3000 in 1996.[18]:215–221 According to a 2001 study in the American Political Science Review, the voting errors caused by the butterfly ballot cost Gore the election: "Had PBC used a ballot format in the presidential race that did not lead to systematic biased voting errors, our findings suggest that, other things equal, Al Gore would have won a majority of the officially certified votes in Florida." And yet the protests then were level-headed, largely peaceful, and fully justifiable.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

> I have absolutely no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electronic voting machines. This is mostly not true. See https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_state https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat... . Almost every state produces a voter-readable paper trail for all votes.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
MrRiddle 6y ago
"Almost every state" is enough these days?
- rcxdude 6y ago
  It's not, but the only state without a paper trail for everything which went Biden in the last election is New Jersey (The other 7 states which have some level of exposure to digital manipulation voted Trump).
  - tubbyjr 6y ago
    Huh, who woulda thunk that, where they had checks & balances it went for Trump. What a thing coincidence is haha
    - rcxdude 6y ago
      That's the exact opposite of what I was saying.
    - Shared404 6y ago
      You mean the areas that did not have a verifiable paper trail went for Trump? Do you mean to imply tampering is "checks & balances"?
- tubbyjr 6y ago
  "I do not recall" will be his next line

jariel 6y ago

"no faith in the election since voting required the use of hackable electronic voting machines." The voting machines produce a paper ballot, which can be recounted and audited. The elections were fine. 100% of the issue is derived from Trump's attempt to sow doubt, and of course, his enablers.

jmull 6y ago

Did you take any comfort from the Georgia hand-count?