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I feel like I'm out of touch with current western culture, I honestly feel like I'm becoming an old fart at the age of 30. Everything is becoming increasingly

I feel like I'm out of touch with current western culture, I honestly feel like I'm becoming an old fart at the age of 30. Everything is becoming increasingly infantile. Everything has to be fun and cool. I'm wondering where is this trend coming from. Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. If one looks how the current enterprises work, the person within them have very limited decision making power and access to information. In a way that reminds me of a quote from interview with Erich Fromm[1]: "It is true that one has to think first and then to act -but it's also true that if one has no possibility of acting, one's thinking kind of becomes empty and stupid.". Any other ideas? Or maybe it's actually not happening at all, and it's only me who's not getting it. [1]: https://hrc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15878coll90/id/64/ https://hrc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p15878coll... PS: OP, I don't mean that as criticism of your product, I think it correctly identifies and addresses the need. It's the why is it even a need part I'm curious about.

victorevector 6y ago
Infantile is a compliment. It suggests creativity and pushing the boundaries. Normally old curmudgeons think young things are empty and stupid because they don’t understand.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  Infantile means you don’t have a developed prefrontal cortex and is definitely not a positive description. Creative and playful are not the same concept.
  - victorevector 6y ago
    1. My point was to undermine the negative connotation associated with the word infantile. Since when did having an undeveloped prefrontal cortex become absolutely negative? 2. Creative and playful are highly correlated.
inscionent 6y ago
Has your job become gamified yet?
- rzodkiew 6y ago
  Thankfully not yet. But as you are correctly pointing out this is another trend I find personally worrisome. Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges...
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges... A college buddy worked at a place like that. But it wasn't a startup, it was a long-established company. It was also 1996, and he learned that closing deals on copies of Windows 95 was worth twice as many points as other software, so he focused all his efforts on that so he could do half the work of his "teammates" in his cubicle farm.
nixpulvis 6y ago
I feel that sentiment myself. The need for better online communication is a forced reality during COVID. Having to navigate such explicit communication setups like Zoom groups and break-out rooms is a challenge. But I don't know why the marketing needs to be so "fun". I hated all the "fun" slack brought to my life... and slowed down good communication dramatically.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  Our focus is to communicate that you can REALLY make the space feel like your own. It should be an emotional response. The imagery on the website may give the idea of fun because we're focusing on help crowds socialize but that's not our end goal.
dunce2020 6y ago
> Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Yep, a distraction to increasing alienation and atomization under Kapital.
silicon2401 6y ago
A related development I find interesting is the increasing denial of accountability. More and more, people focus on the ways that things aren't their fault or focus on things that they can't change. It's to a point where IMO people are basically treating themselves and each other as children, with the tired old mantras that children often use: it's not my fault, they started it, everyone else is doing it too, etc. It doesn't matter too much to me. I've always focused on the ways I can improve myself and my life without worrying too much about how things could have been better if XYZ. But I do think the people who participate in this aspect of infantilization culture may be holding themselves without even realizing it.
- xienze 6y ago
  > A related development I find interesting is the increasing denial of accountability. More and more, people focus on the ways that things aren't their fault or focus on things that they can't change. This is 100% on what's being taught in schools and colleges (critical race theory).
  - jetpks 6y ago
    Can you provide peer reviewed sources for your claim that critical race theory leads to lack of accountability?
    - xienze 6y ago
      Yes, the whole premise is "all your failures in life are because of racism and other privilege."
      - viewer5 6y ago
        That wasn't peer-reviewed or even sourced
        ldrndll 6y ago
        Let’s not let facts get in the way of some good old-fashioned racism shall we?
cam0 6y ago
I'm slightly older than you, so we're both millenials, and I've noticed a lot of my friends sort of struggling with the fact that we're no longer the "young and cool" crowd. The Gen Y/Z TikTok crowd are the cool ones now, and speaking anecdotally the people I know in their late teens and early twenties are quite a bit more sheltered and childish than my friends and I were at that age. We were using fake IDs to get into bars and shows, and my younger cousins are literally spending Friday/Saturday nights inside on social media (pre-Covid).
- dangus 6y ago
  Regarding the sheltering: I dunno. The next generation probably isn’t telling you the shit they’re getting into. Besides that, I spent plenty of Friday evenings staying up until 4 AM playing The Sims (the original game). It’s not like high school kids really have a choice on what they’re doing a lot of times - they don’t have complete freedom of movement.
- DiggyJohnson 6y ago
  Respectfully, I think the younger generations are “up to” the exact same stuff. I should write a post about college campus ID culture. It’s always fun to break out a pseudonym.
  - treve 6y ago
    My understanding is that going out, (binge-)drinking has actually significantly gone down in the last decade. I can't vouch for these specific stats, but I've come across multiple articles over the years that support this. Here's at least some data I found: https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/binge-drinking https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/binge-drinking Anecdotally, tons of clubs have closed in since the 90's with no replacement where I lived (Toronto and North Netherlands). Everything at least in my circles suggests that drugs, drinking, partying is all happening less now compared to the previous generations. Ymmv depending on where you are from though.
    - rorykoehler 6y ago
matsemann 6y ago
Or just because going to work is more fun when it's.. fun? I spend 8 hours a day there, I want to show who I am and I prefer my coworkers doing the same. Especially the last 9 months. Normally one would talk with coworkers in the office, over a coffee, before a meeting etc. Remote meetings I find are strictly business.
- hunter2_ 6y ago
  In terms of how to spend time percolating between hard work: In the office, I can find something to do at my desk alone or I can chat up some coworkers over coffee and the like. Remote, the options are endless and I can chat up my family and friends. I can do chores like dishes or laundry so they're not all waiting for me after work. I can go for a walk without being that guy who takes too many walks. Truly anything so long as the time allocation and availability to plug back in are appropriate. For me, this is why I prefer remote meetings be strictly business, and changing that isn't particularly compelling. My coworkers are cool, but prioritizing them over the rest of my life makes no sense to me so long as the value I bring to the company remains just as strong.
- postingpals 6y ago
  Why do you have to make work fun, shouldn't you already be enjoying it if you are doing what you want to do? Are you not doing what you want to do? See, that's the kind of problem that creates the infantilisation.
  - EForEndeavour 6y ago
    Is it reasonable to expect that everyone in every WFH-friendly job is actually "doing what they want to do" all the time? In my opinion, no way. Even for someone doing their dream job, parts of their day-to-day are guaranteed to be eaten up by objectively not-fun tasks. Also, the fact that someone enjoys their job doesn't mean the experience can't be improved.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - 6y ago
netsharc 6y ago
There's a term for the current 20-somethings who can't be seen as responsible adults yet, I don't remember what it was, but searching for it got me this long article, from 10 years ago! https://www.salon.com/2010/12/23/not_quite_adults_interview/ https://www.salon.com/2010/12/23/not_quite_adults_interview/ Maybe it's the still-living-at-your-parents-at-25 economy... Maybe it's also because the 20, 30-somethings have been raised by more and more helicopter parents and schools giving out participation medals, i.e. too coddled.
- gjvc 6y ago
  I've heard the term "peter-pan generation" be applied to this characteristic.
zeroonetwothree 6y ago
I’m older than you and I think it’s fun. I also question that this is a new thing. Look at the web in the 90s for example.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  There was New Hive. That's one of our inspirations. I am not sure how many people have used that..
jimbob45 6y ago
A lot of these products are failing to innovate in meaningful directions. Instead, they add silly features to justify your continued use of them and their development team salaries.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  I would disagree. How is solving for better communication not meaningful?
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Define "better" in this context.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      not the same person, but I think "better" in this context means "something that more people would prefer over the alternative due to having self-reported higher levels of enjoyment and lower levels of stress, which makes you want to use the tool more".
dangus 6y ago
Maybe you’re right about some things becoming infantile, but a lot of the examples shown on this product page aren’t just about messing around with GIFs. You can build visual virtual spaces, like a virtual conference space or auditorium. The idea of being able to virtually walk around a virtual physical space and speak to people in an analogy to real life (by getting “closer” to them) seems like it’s an idea with at least some potential, and certainly a better idea than doing the real thing right now. Also, you may be surprised to find out that you are allowed to have silly fun as an adult. In my opinion, the “infantilization” of our workplaces is a huge positive, it’s really a side effect that’s demonstrating that employers are caring less about forcing us to wear fake clothes, fake personalities, and fake formality during our day to day work. Comedy is one of the best coping mechanisms to deal with stress and in that way it helps to be able to slap a GIF over a situation without feeling like the boss man is going to tell me to tone it down. And sure, maybe there’s no need for this product, but what I can say is that if you build another Zoom/Meet/WebEx you aren’t really making anything new or interesting.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Having an office clown is a great tension breaker. Having an office full of clowns is a great way to get nothing done.
  - dangus 6y ago
    If you take my argument to its most extreme conclusion, sure, but I don’t know why you’re doing that.
postingpals 6y ago
This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible. When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset. People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy. It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that dominate society that we all subconsciously hold to maintain the social system we built on contradictory premises. I don't think I've presented the full picture, but you asked where this trend is coming from, and to me this is the only common factor and starting point of investigation.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  > This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible Ah yes, those socialists and their totally not family friendly media? Really? > When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset. It's so you know you haven't been disconnected. > People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy. Please don't talk down to people regardless of how wealthy you are. You will always have the best luck by being warm but polite, talking respectfully but honestly. > It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that ... Capitalism appears to be pretty real, and it appears to be pretty political. I would not say it "dominates" society since plenty of people seem to be against it in name alone.
  - postingpals 6y ago
    From your website: "Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations" Why am I not surprised to see this kind of instinctive reaction. I don't want to debate your points because that is way out of scope for this thread and I don't want to be chased out.
    - reaperducer 6y ago
      Be careful. That smells like a personal attack. Moreover, if you can't debate what he wrote in HN, you shouldn't explore his life outside of HN to try to build a strawman.
Jommi 6y ago
I think you're approaching it from the completely wrong way. We are in the time of revolution for video calls and interactive spaces. In times of revolution quick adoption is key. Funny/viral things with no participation barrier are ways of increasing adoption. It will allow the tech/product to evolve and soon also fit your usecase. Because most likely thats where the real money is. Just check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palace_(computer_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palace_(computer_program)
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  Preach!!
beamatronic 6y ago
Yes I think you’re onto something. Fewer and fewer people are required to make the world go. You have to keep them busy/distracted.
remotelyyours 6y ago
I am actually 32 haha I do understand where you're coming from. However, our motivation around this was to have an emotional response to space. The idea of personalizing your space where you're spending time is an important one. We also want to be treated like people online and not boxes. So the whole idea of being on "mute" when you're listening to someone needs to be challenged. This is probably not an answer to what you've asked. I just wanted to tell you about how motivations behind building this.
- 8bitsrule 6y ago
  An experiment well worth doing, and probably a preferable option for people weary of listening politely to 'authorities' or 'guests' or 'lecturers' one-at-a-time... which can be extremely low-bandwidth. Certainly at conventions with 'presentations' many people sit near each other to discuss what's being said (or talk past the parts not relevant to them) in real-time. Orchestras still have conductors (strictly interpreting fixed works) but I think most people would rather be in a band (for the creative interactivity) and rather listen to a band.
- rzodkiew 6y ago
  Oh yeah, I think what you've built can be great enabler for expression and creativity and product itself and definitely has the old school web feel to it. I think what inspired me to write above, was more of a marketing angle you are taking, not necessarily product itself.
  - remotelyyours 6y ago
    You got the creativity and expression bit right. That's a big motivator. For the positioning, I do understand your point. We may need to explore this a bit more to really convey what we're trying to do better.
emteycz 6y ago
I am 23, have same feelings. It's not the age.
- DiggyJohnson 6y ago
  Same age as well. And that’s after strongly correcting for the stereotypical “they don’t make music like they used to” bias that one might accuse me of. Professionalism is seen as patronizing - which is a vibe I can mostly get behind, but massively hinders direct, important communication or collaboration. I also see a lot of dishonest but well-intentioned platitudes being thrown around that hides actual feedback. But I’m ranting! Literally sounding like an old person... should I feel guilty about age-ism??? That’s my young person perspective. It’s good to not feel totally alone in these things. The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    > The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion. What do you mean by this? The next generation which will follow yours?
bonestamp2 6y ago
I wouldn't use it for work, and for that reason I like the idea of something being the opposite of work... where it doesn't have to be "professional" looking.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  You can make it "look" professional if you want.
Dirlewanger 6y ago
A combination of things you mentioned and more: * US has been suffering from its postwar boom period hangover for over 40 years now. The job market isn't like it was due to other emerging economies now having their boom periods. All those dreams and aspirations that millennials were promised (You can be whatever you want! Follow your passion and the work will follow) were shattered and turned out to be contemptible lies perpetuated by the secondary education system and the job market as a whole. As a result, a whole generation is saddled with debt, and are delaying milestones of life progression (buying a house, having kids), indefinitely for many. * The rise of the Internet and the millennials being at its forefront has opened up massive new markets in the entertainment section, most notably Disney. They own most entertainment IPs, and know that millennials want to relive their childhoods so they sell it back to them. Comic book movies aren't just a fad like 80s actions movies were; they're here to stay. And Disney wants adults to keep being obsessed with what are essentially children's movies. All the social media companies want you on their product all the time using it and sharing everything you can (especially the juicy controversial stuff that is polarizing the country, oh boy do they love those articles).
TheCycoONE 6y ago
I don't know about that - I'm a little older than you, and I remember when the web was more like this. GeoCities and MySpace allowed tons of customization, and everybody made their own barf on a page to express themselves. Then sometime in the mid 2000s everything online became sanitized and corporate.
- rzodkiew 6y ago
  I think there's a line somewhere between expressiveness and infantility. It's actually corporate that pushes the latter through the way they add those ways of expression to their products. I'm not saying everything has to be boring and same everywhere, I'd like to see the world that's actually quite the opposite, that's diverse and where people are pushing the boundaries of expression. Where I see infantilisation happening is where things with very low information ratio (and usually something evoking one of the basic emotions with high valence and high arousal) are described as fun and cool. I think OP's product is sitting somewhere on that border, but their marketing angle is definitely pushing it towards the infantility. Just look at the title of this very post, but I guess it worked, in the end we've all clicked on the comments and are here.. :)
- schnevets 6y ago
  I'd describe the mid 2000s aesthetic as "Professional", while current trends are "Genuine". Snaps, stories, livestreams, and other volatile social media became chic because it would go away - you didn't have to rehearse your words, worry about lighting, or ensure your images are perfectly aligned. I really dug this Reslash concept after seeing that grainy image of a classroom used as a background. It's something you just slap on because you're about to teach, but it isn't a painfully constructed "Knowledge Session" with a stock image-riddled Powerpoint deck.
- lhorie 6y ago
  The web has always been a mish-mash of crazy hippie stuff alongside dry boring stuff. There was a lot of personalized personal webpages sure, but also search engines used to look dry and boring and emojis in chat were limited to what you could do with ASCII art (compared to the insane amount of animated sticker spammy-ness that a teen might use these days). With that said, I do agree with GP with regards to things outside of the web: products have a lot more franchise placements (e.g. disney-themed shampoos), and school for my kids have a lot more of an artsy/hippie feel than I remember my dry seats-facing-forward education some 30 years ago. Gaming among adults is far more socially accepted than 30 years ago - you wouldn't even bat an eyelid at an old lady playing candy crush in the bus these days. Etc. I suspect an increase in middle class disposable income might have something to do with this. Look, for example, at how culture progressed over the decades in Japan. Nowadays, you have grown adults who are into moe[0] stuff, along all sort of "infantile" subcultures (by western standards). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)
balia 6y ago
Same. What I want out of every communication product is the same: reliable, boring, and get out of my way. Humans innately know how to communicate with each other. They know how to make jokes, get info across, make hints, etc. we don’t need technology for the content of the communication We need the transportation. Make it reliable, fast, and non interfering. That’s it. That’s why Zoom rocks. It just works
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  We can boring as well. Just change the background to black and disable the ability of making any changes. This is the point actually. If "boring" is your video call vibe, go for it. It's still an expression.
ericmcer 6y ago
Seems like the logical endpoint of the shift away from tie and button down formality to the more casual/fun (at least on the surface) vibe tech businesses introduced. I don't really go for all the unicorn/muffin/whatever type childish aspects, but friendly UI's are a welcome change from the sort of austere 'businessy' UIs. This also doesn't just apply to work, many people my age (32) are super into cartoons and Disneyland, but the concept of going to Disneyland without a child in your 30s seems... weird to me. It is probably good that people feel comfortable to be sort of weird though versus the stoic version of adulthood in the past.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  Interesting take. Yeah, we want to help people build spaces that they can feel connected to. Creating a "vibe" is underrated online.
zwlee94 6y ago
"infantile".. you nailed it: http://jollo.org/LNT/public/nursery.html http://jollo.org/LNT/public/nursery.html
Reedx 6y ago
You might find The Coddling of the American Mind[1] an interesting read. I think it explains a lot about the infantilization of the culture. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897 https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Gen...
corytheboyd 6y ago
I’m 31 and think it’s a cute/fun idea that I’ll probably never want myself, but nobody is forcing me to use it. It’s okay to let people build, deliver, and market things that you don’t need/want. People are allowed to like things that you yourself do not like. Reading the other replies to this comment I feel I am about to be downvoted to hell lol
highspeedbus 6y ago
It absolutely have to do with culture. "Manliness" is out of fashion (in the context of media communication). The current decade is all about being ironic, sassy and at the same time vacuous. Think of pop music at its peak. At the core of the problem, We've probably lost a lot of good UI designers in position of decision from last generation. This reflects on what is considered the "correct" way to make software UI nowadays. Note that blink unicorns are not necessary for a interface to be childish. Oversized buttons, lack of power features and the constant need to "reinvent" is a frenzy that gets some folks mad too. Particularly about the tool, I think this has some cool features that gets wanned by the backgrounds choice on the video pitch.
neetfreek 6y ago
I don't have any particularly interesting ideas about this, but here's a relevant and fun read; an interview with Simon Pegg: https://kingalfredpress.com/2017/09/20/the-infantalism-of-culture/ https://kingalfredpress.com/2017/09/20/the-infantalism-of-cu...
- danudey 6y ago
  This article should be taken with a cosmic-scale grain of salt. Specifically, it's worth noting that the article discussions how complaints about "microaggressions" (typically from visible minorities) are a form of "oppression" and refers to "pathetic little snowflakes". This comes across as some kind of conservative boomer complaining about "kids these days", with their avocado toast, who aren't willing to work as hard as their grandfathers were in a world that's vastly different from the one they grew up in. The crux of the article with regards to Simon Pegg seems to be that movies have moved to "spectacle", but when did that happen? And who is going to see those movies? And why? The world is going to shit; the 1% own most of the world, climate change is destroying our planet, and politicians are more concerned with their own success than the lives of their constituents. Is it any wonder that people these days need more escapism than their grandparents in the "golden age of America", where employees would work hard their whole lives and companies would take care of their employees, where you could work a typical job and still be able to afford a house and a comfortable lifestyle, and where you didn't have to feel bad about hurting someone's feelings by being overtly racist all the time, because you never ran into black people because they weren't allowed to use the same water fountains or bathrooms as you. This article, in short, is garbage, and should be treated as such.
smoyer 6y ago
I'm on the older end of those here on HN ... there's a specifically for our kind: https://gog.show/ https://gog.show/
madeofpalk 6y ago
Since when was "having fun", "enjoying things", and "being creative" infantile?
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  I think OP doesn’t find it to be any of the adjectives you describe.
ironmagma 6y ago
Play is the natural state of life. It’s a better question to ask why everything else is so staid and un-fun. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25481758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25481758
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  Because we have to work to survive in the current system. If I didn’t have to work and could take risks (I.e. have fu money) I’d do roughly the same thing in a very different way.
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    What does that have to do with whether a video conferencing app is experimental though? All that says is that whoever made it has some leeway to take risks.
rorykoehler 6y ago
It’s not particularly western. East Asian countries have been doing it for decades.
npsimons 6y ago
> Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. At 42, I've felt this is the cause for quite some time. You see it in things like the adult Disney woman[0]. Part of it is playing it safe so as not to offend the conservatives with a nipple, but market forces have been driving movies this direction as well[1]. Gutting education to dumb down the populace hasn't helped. [0] - https://youtu.be/vLIfkiF8NeQ https://youtu.be/vLIfkiF8NeQ [1] - https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris
M277 6y ago
Ten years younger here and I feel the exact same. It doesn't even stop with everything being "fun and cool" -- take a look at how dumb social media interaction really is. An infinite stream of stuff that the user just presses "like" or "love" or whatever at, and immediately scrolls / swaps to the next diversion.

victorevector 6y ago

Infantile is a compliment. It suggests creativity and pushing the boundaries. Normally old curmudgeons think young things are empty and stupid because they don’t understand.

rorykoehler 6y ago
Infantile means you don’t have a developed prefrontal cortex and is definitely not a positive description. Creative and playful are not the same concept.
- victorevector 6y ago
  1. My point was to undermine the negative connotation associated with the word infantile. Since when did having an undeveloped prefrontal cortex become absolutely negative? 2. Creative and playful are highly correlated.

inscionent 6y ago

Has your job become gamified yet?

rzodkiew 6y ago
Thankfully not yet. But as you are correctly pointing out this is another trend I find personally worrisome. Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges...
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Recently I've seen startup, where you were earning XP points for quickly closing customer support tickets, and earning badges... A college buddy worked at a place like that. But it wasn't a startup, it was a long-established company. It was also 1996, and he learned that closing deals on copies of Windows 95 was worth twice as many points as other software, so he focused all his efforts on that so he could do half the work of his "teammates" in his cubicle farm.

nixpulvis 6y ago

I feel that sentiment myself. The need for better online communication is a forced reality during COVID. Having to navigate such explicit communication setups like Zoom groups and break-out rooms is a challenge. But I don't know why the marketing needs to be so "fun". I hated all the "fun" slack brought to my life... and slowed down good communication dramatically.

remotelyyours 6y ago
Our focus is to communicate that you can REALLY make the space feel like your own. It should be an emotional response. The imagery on the website may give the idea of fun because we're focusing on help crowds socialize but that's not our end goal.

dunce2020 6y ago

> Is this some sort of a social response to how terrible and bleak reality seems to be? Yep, a distraction to increasing alienation and atomization under Kapital.

silicon2401 6y ago

A related development I find interesting is the increasing denial of accountability. More and more, people focus on the ways that things aren't their fault or focus on things that they can't change. It's to a point where IMO people are basically treating themselves and each other as children, with the tired old mantras that children often use: it's not my fault, they started it, everyone else is doing it too, etc. It doesn't matter too much to me. I've always focused on the ways I can improve myself and my life without worrying too much about how things could have been better if XYZ. But I do think the people who participate in this aspect of infantilization culture may be holding themselves without even realizing it.

xienze 6y ago
> A related development I find interesting is the increasing denial of accountability. More and more, people focus on the ways that things aren't their fault or focus on things that they can't change. This is 100% on what's being taught in schools and colleges (critical race theory).
- jetpks 6y ago
  Can you provide peer reviewed sources for your claim that critical race theory leads to lack of accountability?
  - xienze 6y ago
    Yes, the whole premise is "all your failures in life are because of racism and other privilege."
    - viewer5 6y ago
      That wasn't peer-reviewed or even sourced
      - ldrndll 6y ago
        Let’s not let facts get in the way of some good old-fashioned racism shall we?

cam0 6y ago

I'm slightly older than you, so we're both millenials, and I've noticed a lot of my friends sort of struggling with the fact that we're no longer the "young and cool" crowd. The Gen Y/Z TikTok crowd are the cool ones now, and speaking anecdotally the people I know in their late teens and early twenties are quite a bit more sheltered and childish than my friends and I were at that age. We were using fake IDs to get into bars and shows, and my younger cousins are literally spending Friday/Saturday nights inside on social media (pre-Covid).

dangus 6y ago
Regarding the sheltering: I dunno. The next generation probably isn’t telling you the shit they’re getting into. Besides that, I spent plenty of Friday evenings staying up until 4 AM playing The Sims (the original game). It’s not like high school kids really have a choice on what they’re doing a lot of times - they don’t have complete freedom of movement.
DiggyJohnson 6y ago
Respectfully, I think the younger generations are “up to” the exact same stuff. I should write a post about college campus ID culture. It’s always fun to break out a pseudonym.
- treve 6y ago
  My understanding is that going out, (binge-)drinking has actually significantly gone down in the last decade. I can't vouch for these specific stats, but I've come across multiple articles over the years that support this. Here's at least some data I found: https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/binge-drinking https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/binge-drinking Anecdotally, tons of clubs have closed in since the 90's with no replacement where I lived (Toronto and North Netherlands). Everything at least in my circles suggests that drugs, drinking, partying is all happening less now compared to the previous generations. Ymmv depending on where you are from though.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago

matsemann 6y ago

Or just because going to work is more fun when it's.. fun? I spend 8 hours a day there, I want to show who I am and I prefer my coworkers doing the same. Especially the last 9 months. Normally one would talk with coworkers in the office, over a coffee, before a meeting etc. Remote meetings I find are strictly business.

hunter2_ 6y ago
In terms of how to spend time percolating between hard work: In the office, I can find something to do at my desk alone or I can chat up some coworkers over coffee and the like. Remote, the options are endless and I can chat up my family and friends. I can do chores like dishes or laundry so they're not all waiting for me after work. I can go for a walk without being that guy who takes too many walks. Truly anything so long as the time allocation and availability to plug back in are appropriate. For me, this is why I prefer remote meetings be strictly business, and changing that isn't particularly compelling. My coworkers are cool, but prioritizing them over the rest of my life makes no sense to me so long as the value I bring to the company remains just as strong.
postingpals 6y ago
Why do you have to make work fun, shouldn't you already be enjoying it if you are doing what you want to do? Are you not doing what you want to do? See, that's the kind of problem that creates the infantilisation.
- EForEndeavour 6y ago
  Is it reasonable to expect that everyone in every WFH-friendly job is actually "doing what they want to do" all the time? In my opinion, no way. Even for someone doing their dream job, parts of their day-to-day are guaranteed to be eaten up by objectively not-fun tasks. Also, the fact that someone enjoys their job doesn't mean the experience can't be improved.
- deleted 6y ago
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- 6y ago

netsharc 6y ago

There's a term for the current 20-somethings who can't be seen as responsible adults yet, I don't remember what it was, but searching for it got me this long article, from 10 years ago! https://www.salon.com/2010/12/23/not_quite_adults_interview/ https://www.salon.com/2010/12/23/not_quite_adults_interview/ Maybe it's the still-living-at-your-parents-at-25 economy... Maybe it's also because the 20, 30-somethings have been raised by more and more helicopter parents and schools giving out participation medals, i.e. too coddled.

gjvc 6y ago
I've heard the term "peter-pan generation" be applied to this characteristic.

zeroonetwothree 6y ago

I’m older than you and I think it’s fun. I also question that this is a new thing. Look at the web in the 90s for example.

remotelyyours 6y ago
There was New Hive. That's one of our inspirations. I am not sure how many people have used that..

jimbob45 6y ago

A lot of these products are failing to innovate in meaningful directions. Instead, they add silly features to justify your continued use of them and their development team salaries.

remotelyyours 6y ago
I would disagree. How is solving for better communication not meaningful?
- reaperducer 6y ago
  Define "better" in this context.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    not the same person, but I think "better" in this context means "something that more people would prefer over the alternative due to having self-reported higher levels of enjoyment and lower levels of stress, which makes you want to use the tool more".

dangus 6y ago

Maybe you’re right about some things becoming infantile, but a lot of the examples shown on this product page aren’t just about messing around with GIFs. You can build visual virtual spaces, like a virtual conference space or auditorium. The idea of being able to virtually walk around a virtual physical space and speak to people in an analogy to real life (by getting “closer” to them) seems like it’s an idea with at least some potential, and certainly a better idea than doing the real thing right now. Also, you may be surprised to find out that you are allowed to have silly fun as an adult. In my opinion, the “infantilization” of our workplaces is a huge positive, it’s really a side effect that’s demonstrating that employers are caring less about forcing us to wear fake clothes, fake personalities, and fake formality during our day to day work. Comedy is one of the best coping mechanisms to deal with stress and in that way it helps to be able to slap a GIF over a situation without feeling like the boss man is going to tell me to tone it down. And sure, maybe there’s no need for this product, but what I can say is that if you build another Zoom/Meet/WebEx you aren’t really making anything new or interesting.

reaperducer 6y ago
Having an office clown is a great tension breaker. Having an office full of clowns is a great way to get nothing done.
- dangus 6y ago
  If you take my argument to its most extreme conclusion, sure, but I don’t know why you’re doing that.

postingpals 6y ago

This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible. When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset. People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy. It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that dominate society that we all subconsciously hold to maintain the social system we built on contradictory premises. I don't think I've presented the full picture, but you asked where this trend is coming from, and to me this is the only common factor and starting point of investigation.

vorpalhex 6y ago
> This is Capitalism. Everything has to be family friendly so it can reach as wide an audience as possible Ah yes, those socialists and their totally not family friendly media? Really? > When you're waiting for customer support, you have to hear a fun jingle so you don't get upset. It's so you know you haven't been disconnected. > People have to be talked down to like children so they know their place in the wealth hierarchy. Please don't talk down to people regardless of how wealthy you are. You will always have the best luck by being warm but polite, talking respectfully but honestly. > It's an ideology, not in the sense of political beliefs, but rather false ideas that ... Capitalism appears to be pretty real, and it appears to be pretty political. I would not say it "dominates" society since plenty of people seem to be against it in name alone.
- postingpals 6y ago
  From your website: "Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations" Why am I not surprised to see this kind of instinctive reaction. I don't want to debate your points because that is way out of scope for this thread and I don't want to be chased out.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    Be careful. That smells like a personal attack. Moreover, if you can't debate what he wrote in HN, you shouldn't explore his life outside of HN to try to build a strawman.

Jommi 6y ago

I think you're approaching it from the completely wrong way. We are in the time of revolution for video calls and interactive spaces. In times of revolution quick adoption is key. Funny/viral things with no participation barrier are ways of increasing adoption. It will allow the tech/product to evolve and soon also fit your usecase. Because most likely thats where the real money is. Just check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palace_(computer_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Palace_(computer_program)

remotelyyours 6y ago
Preach!!

beamatronic 6y ago

Yes I think you’re onto something. Fewer and fewer people are required to make the world go. You have to keep them busy/distracted.

remotelyyours 6y ago

I am actually 32 haha I do understand where you're coming from. However, our motivation around this was to have an emotional response to space. The idea of personalizing your space where you're spending time is an important one. We also want to be treated like people online and not boxes. So the whole idea of being on "mute" when you're listening to someone needs to be challenged. This is probably not an answer to what you've asked. I just wanted to tell you about how motivations behind building this.

8bitsrule 6y ago
An experiment well worth doing, and probably a preferable option for people weary of listening politely to 'authorities' or 'guests' or 'lecturers' one-at-a-time... which can be extremely low-bandwidth. Certainly at conventions with 'presentations' many people sit near each other to discuss what's being said (or talk past the parts not relevant to them) in real-time. Orchestras still have conductors (strictly interpreting fixed works) but I think most people would rather be in a band (for the creative interactivity) and rather listen to a band.
rzodkiew 6y ago
Oh yeah, I think what you've built can be great enabler for expression and creativity and product itself and definitely has the old school web feel to it. I think what inspired me to write above, was more of a marketing angle you are taking, not necessarily product itself.
- remotelyyours 6y ago
  You got the creativity and expression bit right. That's a big motivator. For the positioning, I do understand your point. We may need to explore this a bit more to really convey what we're trying to do better.

emteycz 6y ago

I am 23, have same feelings. It's not the age.

DiggyJohnson 6y ago
Same age as well. And that’s after strongly correcting for the stereotypical “they don’t make music like they used to” bias that one might accuse me of. Professionalism is seen as patronizing - which is a vibe I can mostly get behind, but massively hinders direct, important communication or collaboration. I also see a lot of dishonest but well-intentioned platitudes being thrown around that hides actual feedback. But I’m ranting! Literally sounding like an old person... should I feel guilty about age-ism??? That’s my young person perspective. It’s good to not feel totally alone in these things. The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  > The kids behind us are wild, in my opinion. What do you mean by this? The next generation which will follow yours?

bonestamp2 6y ago

I wouldn't use it for work, and for that reason I like the idea of something being the opposite of work... where it doesn't have to be "professional" looking.

remotelyyours 6y ago
You can make it "look" professional if you want.

Dirlewanger 6y ago

A combination of things you mentioned and more: * US has been suffering from its postwar boom period hangover for over 40 years now. The job market isn't like it was due to other emerging economies now having their boom periods. All those dreams and aspirations that millennials were promised (You can be whatever you want! Follow your passion and the work will follow) were shattered and turned out to be contemptible lies perpetuated by the secondary education system and the job market as a whole. As a result, a whole generation is saddled with debt, and are delaying milestones of life progression (buying a house, having kids), indefinitely for many. * The rise of the Internet and the millennials being at its forefront has opened up massive new markets in the entertainment section, most notably Disney. They own most entertainment IPs, and know that millennials want to relive their childhoods so they sell it back to them. Comic book movies aren't just a fad like 80s actions movies were; they're here to stay. And Disney wants adults to keep being obsessed with what are essentially children's movies. All the social media companies want you on their product all the time using it and sharing everything you can (especially the juicy controversial stuff that is polarizing the country, oh boy do they love those articles).

TheCycoONE 6y ago

I don't know about that - I'm a little older than you, and I remember when the web was more like this. GeoCities and MySpace allowed tons of customization, and everybody made their own barf on a page to express themselves. Then sometime in the mid 2000s everything online became sanitized and corporate.

rzodkiew 6y ago
I think there's a line somewhere between expressiveness and infantility. It's actually corporate that pushes the latter through the way they add those ways of expression to their products. I'm not saying everything has to be boring and same everywhere, I'd like to see the world that's actually quite the opposite, that's diverse and where people are pushing the boundaries of expression. Where I see infantilisation happening is where things with very low information ratio (and usually something evoking one of the basic emotions with high valence and high arousal) are described as fun and cool. I think OP's product is sitting somewhere on that border, but their marketing angle is definitely pushing it towards the infantility. Just look at the title of this very post, but I guess it worked, in the end we've all clicked on the comments and are here.. :)
schnevets 6y ago
I'd describe the mid 2000s aesthetic as "Professional", while current trends are "Genuine". Snaps, stories, livestreams, and other volatile social media became chic because it would go away - you didn't have to rehearse your words, worry about lighting, or ensure your images are perfectly aligned. I really dug this Reslash concept after seeing that grainy image of a classroom used as a background. It's something you just slap on because you're about to teach, but it isn't a painfully constructed "Knowledge Session" with a stock image-riddled Powerpoint deck.
lhorie 6y ago
The web has always been a mish-mash of crazy hippie stuff alongside dry boring stuff. There was a lot of personalized personal webpages sure, but also search engines used to look dry and boring and emojis in chat were limited to what you could do with ASCII art (compared to the insane amount of animated sticker spammy-ness that a teen might use these days). With that said, I do agree with GP with regards to things outside of the web: products have a lot more franchise placements (e.g. disney-themed shampoos), and school for my kids have a lot more of an artsy/hippie feel than I remember my dry seats-facing-forward education some 30 years ago. Gaming among adults is far more socially accepted than 30 years ago - you wouldn't even bat an eyelid at an old lady playing candy crush in the bus these days. Etc. I suspect an increase in middle class disposable income might have something to do with this. Look, for example, at how culture progressed over the decades in Japan. Nowadays, you have grown adults who are into moe[0] stuff, along all sort of "infantile" subcultures (by western standards). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)

balia 6y ago

Same. What I want out of every communication product is the same: reliable, boring, and get out of my way. Humans innately know how to communicate with each other. They know how to make jokes, get info across, make hints, etc. we don’t need technology for the content of the communication We need the transportation. Make it reliable, fast, and non interfering. That’s it. That’s why Zoom rocks. It just works

remotelyyours 6y ago
We can boring as well. Just change the background to black and disable the ability of making any changes. This is the point actually. If "boring" is your video call vibe, go for it. It's still an expression.

ericmcer 6y ago

Seems like the logical endpoint of the shift away from tie and button down formality to the more casual/fun (at least on the surface) vibe tech businesses introduced. I don't really go for all the unicorn/muffin/whatever type childish aspects, but friendly UI's are a welcome change from the sort of austere 'businessy' UIs. This also doesn't just apply to work, many people my age (32) are super into cartoons and Disneyland, but the concept of going to Disneyland without a child in your 30s seems... weird to me. It is probably good that people feel comfortable to be sort of weird though versus the stoic version of adulthood in the past.

remotelyyours 6y ago
Interesting take. Yeah, we want to help people build spaces that they can feel connected to. Creating a "vibe" is underrated online.

zwlee94 6y ago

"infantile".. you nailed it: http://jollo.org/LNT/public/nursery.html http://jollo.org/LNT/public/nursery.html

Reedx 6y ago

You might find The Coddling of the American Mind[1] an interesting read. I think it explains a lot about the infantilization of the culture. 1. https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897 https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Gen...

corytheboyd 6y ago

I’m 31 and think it’s a cute/fun idea that I’ll probably never want myself, but nobody is forcing me to use it. It’s okay to let people build, deliver, and market things that you don’t need/want. People are allowed to like things that you yourself do not like. Reading the other replies to this comment I feel I am about to be downvoted to hell lol

highspeedbus 6y ago

It absolutely have to do with culture. "Manliness" is out of fashion (in the context of media communication). The current decade is all about being ironic, sassy and at the same time vacuous. Think of pop music at its peak. At the core of the problem, We've probably lost a lot of good UI designers in position of decision from last generation. This reflects on what is considered the "correct" way to make software UI nowadays. Note that blink unicorns are not necessary for a interface to be childish. Oversized buttons, lack of power features and the constant need to "reinvent" is a frenzy that gets some folks mad too. Particularly about the tool, I think this has some cool features that gets wanned by the backgrounds choice on the video pitch.

neetfreek 6y ago

I don't have any particularly interesting ideas about this, but here's a relevant and fun read; an interview with Simon Pegg: https://kingalfredpress.com/2017/09/20/the-infantalism-of-culture/ https://kingalfredpress.com/2017/09/20/the-infantalism-of-cu...

danudey 6y ago
This article should be taken with a cosmic-scale grain of salt. Specifically, it's worth noting that the article discussions how complaints about "microaggressions" (typically from visible minorities) are a form of "oppression" and refers to "pathetic little snowflakes". This comes across as some kind of conservative boomer complaining about "kids these days", with their avocado toast, who aren't willing to work as hard as their grandfathers were in a world that's vastly different from the one they grew up in. The crux of the article with regards to Simon Pegg seems to be that movies have moved to "spectacle", but when did that happen? And who is going to see those movies? And why? The world is going to shit; the 1% own most of the world, climate change is destroying our planet, and politicians are more concerned with their own success than the lives of their constituents. Is it any wonder that people these days need more escapism than their grandparents in the "golden age of America", where employees would work hard their whole lives and companies would take care of their employees, where you could work a typical job and still be able to afford a house and a comfortable lifestyle, and where you didn't have to feel bad about hurting someone's feelings by being overtly racist all the time, because you never ran into black people because they weren't allowed to use the same water fountains or bathrooms as you. This article, in short, is garbage, and should be treated as such.

smoyer 6y ago

I'm on the older end of those here on HN ... there's a specifically for our kind: https://gog.show/ https://gog.show/

madeofpalk 6y ago

Since when was "having fun", "enjoying things", and "being creative" infantile?

rorykoehler 6y ago
I think OP doesn’t find it to be any of the adjectives you describe.

ironmagma 6y ago

Play is the natural state of life. It’s a better question to ask why everything else is so staid and un-fun. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25481758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25481758

rorykoehler 6y ago
Because we have to work to survive in the current system. If I didn’t have to work and could take risks (I.e. have fu money) I’d do roughly the same thing in a very different way.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  What does that have to do with whether a video conferencing app is experimental though? All that says is that whoever made it has some leeway to take risks.

rorykoehler 6y ago

It’s not particularly western. East Asian countries have been doing it for decades.

npsimons 6y ago

> Or maybe it's because we actually treat majority of people like little children. At 42, I've felt this is the cause for quite some time. You see it in things like the adult Disney woman[0]. Part of it is playing it safe so as not to offend the conservatives with a nipple, but market forces have been driving movies this direction as well[1]. Gutting education to dumb down the populace hasn't helped. [0] - https://youtu.be/vLIfkiF8NeQ https://youtu.be/vLIfkiF8NeQ [1] - https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris https://www.gq.com/story/the-day-the-movies-died-mark-harris

M277 6y ago

Ten years younger here and I feel the exact same. It doesn't even stop with everything being "fun and cool" -- take a look at how dumb social media interaction really is. An infinite stream of stuff that the user just presses "like" or "love" or whatever at, and immediately scrolls / swaps to the next diversion.