6 ms·

> I'd argue that points to a massive monoculture problem at Facebook, but I'm massively anti-Facebook so I'm biased. I'm pretty sure that's the point. Massive

> I'd argue that points to a massive monoculture problem at Facebook, but I'm massively anti-Facebook so I'm biased. I'm pretty sure that's the point. Massive enterprises like Facebook have no need for creative "outside the box" thinking anymore. They need dependable, solid developers with a standardized skillset that they can plug into a position like lego blocks, easily replaced whenever they burnout or stop toeing the corporate line.

Uberphallus 6y ago
I kind of agree with your cynicism, but I'm partial due to having been refused by Facebook, twice. The first time I made the mistake of using Python (because of its whiteboard value) while not being proficient in it. They really didn't like me Googling some basic stuff. The second time I still used Python, but had 5 years experience using it behind. Can't be objective but it was probably the best interview I've ever done. Reviewed my code afterwards, and could only come up with minor improvements. Got refused, I asked what could I improve and I got a very generic "not a good match for the team" which, in retrospect, reading your comment, could have been very accurate.
- jyu 6y ago
  Coding a good solution is necessary but not sufficient to pass an interview. Maybe you asked too many questions or not enough, maybe you solved the problem too slowly. Interviewers for better or worse look for specific signals that clue them into your being a good coworker. It's why even if you're a good programmer you may need to apply multiple times before the right set of interviewers grant you admission into their club.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - _Understated_ 6y ago
    > It's why even if you're a good programmer you may need to apply multiple times before the right set of interviewers grant you admission into their club. That would imply to me that their interview process is fundamentally broken.
    - MajorBee 6y ago
      It could also imply that they simply get more good applications than they need. Everyone and their grandma seems to want to work for Big N, after all.
- wanderer2323 6y ago
  There is this weird meme that using Python is beneficial during interviewing -- you mention it, the OP mentions it, I have experienced it myself and seen friends mention it. I don't know how or why this meme infects people; in my interview experience (MSFT, Google, Oracle, FB, Amazon, other smaller places) nobody ever batted an eyelid on me using C#. My advice would be to only use a language you know best, as long as it's appropriate for the role -- and most mainstream languages would be appropriate for generic FAANG SDE roles. Using the language you know best will bring all sort of benefits -- you'll code faster, you'll be more confident, you might even find a place to show off a little. There is no good reason to give this advantage up.
  - kenhwang 6y ago
    Python is beneficial in that everyone understands or can learn to understand basic Python in the time it takes to do an interview. However, due to the whiteboard and performance focused aspect of the typical coding interview, Python is actually kinda an awful language to interview with. Plus, if you want to be terse with Python (whiteboard space is limited after all), it quickly becomes alphabet soup. If I had to describe the perfect interviewing language, it'd be something with C/Java-like syntax, but without the cruft, that can optionally be typed, with easy fine grain control over looping. All the big-tech companies work with way too much Java, but Java is way too verbose for coding by hand. C# is about as close to Java as they come. Scala/Kotlin is excellent if you write it like Java.
    - pseudalopex 6y ago
      O(n) is O(n) in any language. And how does Python become alphabet soup?
  - MakersF 6y ago
    This, absolutely this! I did a lot of interviews (as interviewer) at a non-fang-but-close-enough, the guideline was to tell interviewees to pick the language they most prefer. Even if we didn't know it, the valuable part was the problem solving, and the candidate could display good communication skills by explaining the language features you were not familiar with. This is much better than picking a language that you don't know (happened several times that someone picked python, and when asked to write a class said "I know how to write classes in java". We switched to java, no problem.)
- sockgrant 6y ago
  Can fail behavioral or design interviews while passing coding and not get hired. Can also have written what you thought was good code but have been given too many hints. Or, could have written good code to the question asked, but took so long that interviewer didn't get to a second question and you wouldn't ever know that.
finnthehuman 6y ago
>plug into a position like lego blocks Every time I hear someone from big tech talk about being a "L"-something (or in this blog they're "E" levels), I wonder if they know they sound exactly like the bureaucracy talk of the US Federal Government employees and their "GS" "E" or "O" levels.
- mandevil 6y ago
  For better or worse, when you get to a certain size you absolutely NEED that level of bureaucracy. You can't get 120,000 full time employees plus probably another 100,000 contractors to work together without establishing a clear hierarchy that everyone inside it understands. A smaller company can have different approaches because they will have a dense network of employee relationships, and can work together off of those relationships. However, at six figure employee scale by necessity you will end up with a very very sparse matrix of employee relationships, so you have to have something else to get results.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    A lot of really big companies have super flat hierarchies when I worked at one we had MPG2, MPG4 then Senior Management U,T,S Promotion was brutal you might have 20 MPG4 slots every 18 Months for the entire Division (60k FTE) - just getting to the Board Stage was tough enough. I think a MPG2 was equivalent to a Captain an S was a Grade 7 (GS15 in US terms I think) Full Colonel
    - pc86 6y ago
      You just proved the GP's point. Whether the hierarchy is flat or not is irrelevant, they still have the bureaucracy around leveling and authority/responsibility.
officehero 6y ago
I also think FB, contrary to many other massive enterprises, suffers extra much from this bcs it doesn't even make sense as a massive enterprise. It's a social network platform and when it grew too large it mutated into something that in its worst days looks like a scene out of 1984. Hence Lego recruits are needed not just bcs its massive but because they shouldn't be asking the difficult questions.
faang_employee 6y ago
You can't be more far away from the truth. Thinking outside of the box is very much encouraged and more senior engineers are expected to come up or shape, lead and deliver projects. FB is company where individual engineers could go and do any project they want - they can even invent it - if they believe that it will deliver big enough impact. After 1 year at FB you can switch team any time you like and your manager does not even need to know what you are working on (it's probably better if they know, as they could many times help you, but no one is micro managing you). You are assessed every 6 months based on impact you deliver. Your manager supports you, but you need to drive it and deliver it. Tooling/languages are standardised, but FB does not care whether you do know Hack, or JS. You can do interview in any language (if you are going for generic engineering role). So far at FB I have coded in 4 different languages and picked up all of them as I joined teams. Even though FB is enterprise company, it feels like startup with great salary, benefits and more manageable work-life balance. Before FB I was 7 years in startups and I have worked longer hours, got paid much less and wasted more time.

Uberphallus 6y ago

I kind of agree with your cynicism, but I'm partial due to having been refused by Facebook, twice. The first time I made the mistake of using Python (because of its whiteboard value) while not being proficient in it. They really didn't like me Googling some basic stuff. The second time I still used Python, but had 5 years experience using it behind. Can't be objective but it was probably the best interview I've ever done. Reviewed my code afterwards, and could only come up with minor improvements. Got refused, I asked what could I improve and I got a very generic "not a good match for the team" which, in retrospect, reading your comment, could have been very accurate.

jyu 6y ago
Coding a good solution is necessary but not sufficient to pass an interview. Maybe you asked too many questions or not enough, maybe you solved the problem too slowly. Interviewers for better or worse look for specific signals that clue them into your being a good coworker. It's why even if you're a good programmer you may need to apply multiple times before the right set of interviewers grant you admission into their club.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- _Understated_ 6y ago
  > It's why even if you're a good programmer you may need to apply multiple times before the right set of interviewers grant you admission into their club. That would imply to me that their interview process is fundamentally broken.
  - MajorBee 6y ago
    It could also imply that they simply get more good applications than they need. Everyone and their grandma seems to want to work for Big N, after all.
wanderer2323 6y ago
There is this weird meme that using Python is beneficial during interviewing -- you mention it, the OP mentions it, I have experienced it myself and seen friends mention it. I don't know how or why this meme infects people; in my interview experience (MSFT, Google, Oracle, FB, Amazon, other smaller places) nobody ever batted an eyelid on me using C#. My advice would be to only use a language you know best, as long as it's appropriate for the role -- and most mainstream languages would be appropriate for generic FAANG SDE roles. Using the language you know best will bring all sort of benefits -- you'll code faster, you'll be more confident, you might even find a place to show off a little. There is no good reason to give this advantage up.
- kenhwang 6y ago
  Python is beneficial in that everyone understands or can learn to understand basic Python in the time it takes to do an interview. However, due to the whiteboard and performance focused aspect of the typical coding interview, Python is actually kinda an awful language to interview with. Plus, if you want to be terse with Python (whiteboard space is limited after all), it quickly becomes alphabet soup. If I had to describe the perfect interviewing language, it'd be something with C/Java-like syntax, but without the cruft, that can optionally be typed, with easy fine grain control over looping. All the big-tech companies work with way too much Java, but Java is way too verbose for coding by hand. C# is about as close to Java as they come. Scala/Kotlin is excellent if you write it like Java.
  - pseudalopex 6y ago
    O(n) is O(n) in any language. And how does Python become alphabet soup?
- MakersF 6y ago
  This, absolutely this! I did a lot of interviews (as interviewer) at a non-fang-but-close-enough, the guideline was to tell interviewees to pick the language they most prefer. Even if we didn't know it, the valuable part was the problem solving, and the candidate could display good communication skills by explaining the language features you were not familiar with. This is much better than picking a language that you don't know (happened several times that someone picked python, and when asked to write a class said "I know how to write classes in java". We switched to java, no problem.)
sockgrant 6y ago
Can fail behavioral or design interviews while passing coding and not get hired. Can also have written what you thought was good code but have been given too many hints. Or, could have written good code to the question asked, but took so long that interviewer didn't get to a second question and you wouldn't ever know that.

finnthehuman 6y ago

>plug into a position like lego blocks Every time I hear someone from big tech talk about being a "L"-something (or in this blog they're "E" levels), I wonder if they know they sound exactly like the bureaucracy talk of the US Federal Government employees and their "GS" "E" or "O" levels.

mandevil 6y ago
For better or worse, when you get to a certain size you absolutely NEED that level of bureaucracy. You can't get 120,000 full time employees plus probably another 100,000 contractors to work together without establishing a clear hierarchy that everyone inside it understands. A smaller company can have different approaches because they will have a dense network of employee relationships, and can work together off of those relationships. However, at six figure employee scale by necessity you will end up with a very very sparse matrix of employee relationships, so you have to have something else to get results.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  A lot of really big companies have super flat hierarchies when I worked at one we had MPG2, MPG4 then Senior Management U,T,S Promotion was brutal you might have 20 MPG4 slots every 18 Months for the entire Division (60k FTE) - just getting to the Board Stage was tough enough. I think a MPG2 was equivalent to a Captain an S was a Grade 7 (GS15 in US terms I think) Full Colonel
  - pc86 6y ago
    You just proved the GP's point. Whether the hierarchy is flat or not is irrelevant, they still have the bureaucracy around leveling and authority/responsibility.

officehero 6y ago

I also think FB, contrary to many other massive enterprises, suffers extra much from this bcs it doesn't even make sense as a massive enterprise. It's a social network platform and when it grew too large it mutated into something that in its worst days looks like a scene out of 1984. Hence Lego recruits are needed not just bcs its massive but because they shouldn't be asking the difficult questions.

faang_employee 6y ago

You can't be more far away from the truth. Thinking outside of the box is very much encouraged and more senior engineers are expected to come up or shape, lead and deliver projects. FB is company where individual engineers could go and do any project they want - they can even invent it - if they believe that it will deliver big enough impact. After 1 year at FB you can switch team any time you like and your manager does not even need to know what you are working on (it's probably better if they know, as they could many times help you, but no one is micro managing you). You are assessed every 6 months based on impact you deliver. Your manager supports you, but you need to drive it and deliver it. Tooling/languages are standardised, but FB does not care whether you do know Hack, or JS. You can do interview in any language (if you are going for generic engineering role). So far at FB I have coded in 4 different languages and picked up all of them as I joined teams. Even though FB is enterprise company, it feels like startup with great salary, benefits and more manageable work-life balance. Before FB I was 7 years in startups and I have worked longer hours, got paid much less and wasted more time.