7 ms·

Because despite so many people claiming Trump will create a dictatorship, it turns out US courts do actually have power, and the seperation of powers does actua

by zpeti 6y ago

Because despite so many people claiming Trump will create a dictatorship, it turns out US courts do actually have power, and the seperation of powers does actually work. The president isn't the be all and end all power in the USA, as some people would like to think.

papito 6y ago
Trump alone, maybe not. He doesn't want to do the hard work that goes into becoming a dictator. Dictators come to power very often through legitimate means and deft political work. It's not like all dictatorships come to life through violent means. It's not the case. It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Also, if the GOP controlled both chambers of Congress, the odds that Joe Biden would be sworn in on the 21st would be very slim. There is your dictatorship. You might say that we would essentially become a parliamentary system, but I don't think that's what we were GOING for.
- gambiting 6y ago
  >>It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Uhm, you might be unaware, but Poland has gotten rid of communism and replaced the ruling communist party through both peaceful protests and democratic elections. I see these comments all the time ("all uprisings have to be violent") but that's just provably not true.
  - wGeF7H8Z59y985y 6y ago
    This only worked for Poland because their communist masters (the Soviets) simply disappeared overnight for reasons of their own. It’s not as if Poland itself had some intrinsic desire for communism and then changed its mind.
    - virgilp 6y ago
      If you claim "Always X" (going back to democracy HAS to be violent), it's perfectly proper to disprove your claim with a singular example of "not X".
      - Steltek 6y ago
        Are there any absolute statements that one can make about humans and human behavior? All humans have arms and legs? No. Even "All humans have brains" seems debatable after 2020 :-P.
    - auggierose 6y ago
      Also, Polish democracy is in a sorry state right now.
    - bitcharmer 6y ago
      > their communist masters (the Soviets) simply disappeared overnight On the contrary. They stayed in power for many years in various forms. Read about the deal Solidarity struck with the commies in Magdalenka. No one left. They just changed their banners.
  - toper-centage 6y ago
    You should watch Rules Rulers on YouTube by CGP Grey. It very neatly summarises how you can't change a regime peacefully unless keys parties (e.g. Police, Military) are on your side. If the regime is paying those keys well, the population has little power.
  - bitcharmer 6y ago
    All true about (mostly) peaceful transition of power in Poland. Worth noting there were casualties though - father Jerzy Popieluszko, the "Wujek" coal mine come to mind as examples. However the reason why it happened relatively seamlessly in Poland has to do with the fact that after the transition the post-communists still held onto a lot of power and the most impactful branches of the government, like the secret services. This was part of a deal in Magdalenka. Poland never opened their communist archives because that would compromise many active politicians. They didn't get rid of the cancer like they did in Chechoslovakia or the DDR. A good evidence of that was the fact that my Polish grandfather who was lt colonel of secret service (going after the Solidarity freedom fighters) still enjoyed his 10x higher pension and privileges than his victims even 10+ years after Poland became a "free" country.
    - mamon 6y ago
      Truth is, only 4 years after supposed fall of communism in Poland communists went back to power by winning democratic parlimentary elections in 1993. Two years later they also won presidential election.
      - gambiting 6y ago
        Sure, but the point is that those were by all measures and accounts(at least I can't find any proof suggesting otherwise) free and democratic elections. A party consisting mostly of former communist politicians won, sure - but pre 1989 there was no democracy, there were elections but just like there are elections in the present-day Democratic Republic of Korea - the ruling party always wins with 99% of the votes. After 1989 we have managed to change the system into democracy where both the parliment and the president are chosen by the people - and well, the best proof of it working is that the SLD party both won and then lost the elections, all before the decade was out.
        mamon 6y ago
        Yes, formally the win was fair, on the surface, but it wouldn't happen without some preparations. The deal made with communists in 1989 made sure that: 1. Communist party members never answered for their crimes, and were free to continue their political careers. 2. Compromised communist judges continued their service in courts, effectively granting communist scumbags immunity for their crimes. Crimes which included stealing huge amounts of money, which then were used for point 3: 3. The only two private TV networks, as well as biggest newspaper were owned/controlled by former communist intelligence officers. This was a great propaganda platform. You see, that's a downside of peaceful revolutions: you never get a chance of permanently getting rid of your former rulers. Had generals Jaruzelski, Kiszczak and maybe two dozens other top ranking communist been executed in 1989 we might have avoided this mess.
- 7952 6y ago
  A lot depends on the military and police. They have the ability to enforce the law or constitution. Or they can just stand aside and let things happen, like a peaceful revolution. You can't be a dictator from a prison cell after all.
  - papito 6y ago
    The military is not going to swoop in and cuff Ted Cruz after he votes to nullify a US election. There is no election police. It's all based on an honor system.
chii 6y ago
which is good - democracy and such does have some balancing effect. But it's also democracy that elected someone like trump....shrugs
tinus_hn 6y ago
Yeah, Trump failed to do what he tried to do. Take that, libs!
pilsetnieks 6y ago
Is that what happened? From what I've read, it seems that the government just kinda lost interest in pursuing it. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/trump-admin-delays-tiktok-ban-it-was-already-legally-told-to-hold/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/trump-admin-dela...
krapp 6y ago
Half the country (ok, that's hyperbole) believes Trump won a second term by an overwhelming margin and that the Democratic Party has installed Joe Biden via coup de tat, possibly on behalf of the CCP. Republicans have openly called for martial law, and using numerous underhanded (but technically legal) tactics to overturn the election, and state governors have suggested secession and civil war. The narrative he and the right wing have been building over most of the last decade - that America at all levels of society is being infiltrated and captured by leftist extremists as a pretext to some kind of communist/globalist/NWO takeover (so vote for God, Guns and the GOP) - is exactly the doomsday trigger scenario that American militias have fantasized about and wargamed over, and QAnon and many Evangelicals believe Trump has been sent by God to cleanse America of occult pedophiles and atheistic liberalism. Sinclair Lewis may or may not have said "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross," in other words, by infiltrating American gun culture and conservative Christianity, because those are the forces that control the greatest potential for populist violence in the US. Trump may not have succeeded directly, but it remains to be seen who he's laid the foundations for in the future.
- derivagral 6y ago
  I would suggest looking at Altemeyer's work; the authoritative streak runs on both sides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Altemeyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Altemeyer
  - krapp 6y ago
    But only one side is actually trying to negate the legitimate result of a Presidential election at the moment, and it isn't the Democrats or "the Left."
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      The beginning of 2016 was quite different though. Just because Democrats are currently the heroes doesn't buy them pardon for past sins - or protect them from future ones.

by zpeti 6y ago

papito 6y ago

Trump alone, maybe not. He doesn't want to do the hard work that goes into becoming a dictator. Dictators come to power very often through legitimate means and deft political work. It's not like all dictatorships come to life through violent means. It's not the case. It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Also, if the GOP controlled both chambers of Congress, the odds that Joe Biden would be sworn in on the 21st would be very slim. There is your dictatorship. You might say that we would essentially become a parliamentary system, but I don't think that's what we were GOING for.

gambiting 6y ago
>>It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Uhm, you might be unaware, but Poland has gotten rid of communism and replaced the ruling communist party through both peaceful protests and democratic elections. I see these comments all the time ("all uprisings have to be violent") but that's just provably not true.
- wGeF7H8Z59y985y 6y ago
  This only worked for Poland because their communist masters (the Soviets) simply disappeared overnight for reasons of their own. It’s not as if Poland itself had some intrinsic desire for communism and then changed its mind.
  - virgilp 6y ago
    If you claim "Always X" (going back to democracy HAS to be violent), it's perfectly proper to disprove your claim with a singular example of "not X".
    - Steltek 6y ago
      Are there any absolute statements that one can make about humans and human behavior? All humans have arms and legs? No. Even "All humans have brains" seems debatable after 2020 :-P.
  - auggierose 6y ago
    Also, Polish democracy is in a sorry state right now.
  - bitcharmer 6y ago
    > their communist masters (the Soviets) simply disappeared overnight On the contrary. They stayed in power for many years in various forms. Read about the deal Solidarity struck with the commies in Magdalenka. No one left. They just changed their banners.
- toper-centage 6y ago
  You should watch Rules Rulers on YouTube by CGP Grey. It very neatly summarises how you can't change a regime peacefully unless keys parties (e.g. Police, Military) are on your side. If the regime is paying those keys well, the population has little power.
- bitcharmer 6y ago
  All true about (mostly) peaceful transition of power in Poland. Worth noting there were casualties though - father Jerzy Popieluszko, the "Wujek" coal mine come to mind as examples. However the reason why it happened relatively seamlessly in Poland has to do with the fact that after the transition the post-communists still held onto a lot of power and the most impactful branches of the government, like the secret services. This was part of a deal in Magdalenka. Poland never opened their communist archives because that would compromise many active politicians. They didn't get rid of the cancer like they did in Chechoslovakia or the DDR. A good evidence of that was the fact that my Polish grandfather who was lt colonel of secret service (going after the Solidarity freedom fighters) still enjoyed his 10x higher pension and privileges than his victims even 10+ years after Poland became a "free" country.
  - mamon 6y ago
    Truth is, only 4 years after supposed fall of communism in Poland communists went back to power by winning democratic parlimentary elections in 1993. Two years later they also won presidential election.
    - gambiting 6y ago
      Sure, but the point is that those were by all measures and accounts(at least I can't find any proof suggesting otherwise) free and democratic elections. A party consisting mostly of former communist politicians won, sure - but pre 1989 there was no democracy, there were elections but just like there are elections in the present-day Democratic Republic of Korea - the ruling party always wins with 99% of the votes. After 1989 we have managed to change the system into democracy where both the parliment and the president are chosen by the people - and well, the best proof of it working is that the SLD party both won and then lost the elections, all before the decade was out.
      - mamon 6y ago
        Yes, formally the win was fair, on the surface, but it wouldn't happen without some preparations. The deal made with communists in 1989 made sure that: 1. Communist party members never answered for their crimes, and were free to continue their political careers. 2. Compromised communist judges continued their service in courts, effectively granting communist scumbags immunity for their crimes. Crimes which included stealing huge amounts of money, which then were used for point 3: 3. The only two private TV networks, as well as biggest newspaper were owned/controlled by former communist intelligence officers. This was a great propaganda platform. You see, that's a downside of peaceful revolutions: you never get a chance of permanently getting rid of your former rulers. Had generals Jaruzelski, Kiszczak and maybe two dozens other top ranking communist been executed in 1989 we might have avoided this mess.
7952 6y ago
A lot depends on the military and police. They have the ability to enforce the law or constitution. Or they can just stand aside and let things happen, like a peaceful revolution. You can't be a dictator from a prison cell after all.
- papito 6y ago
  The military is not going to swoop in and cuff Ted Cruz after he votes to nullify a US election. There is no election police. It's all based on an honor system.

chii 6y ago

which is good - democracy and such does have some balancing effect. But it's also democracy that elected someone like trump....shrugs

tinus_hn 6y ago

Yeah, Trump failed to do what he tried to do. Take that, libs!

pilsetnieks 6y ago

Is that what happened? From what I've read, it seems that the government just kinda lost interest in pursuing it. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/trump-admin-delays-tiktok-ban-it-was-already-legally-told-to-hold/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/trump-admin-dela...

krapp 6y ago

Half the country (ok, that's hyperbole) believes Trump won a second term by an overwhelming margin and that the Democratic Party has installed Joe Biden via coup de tat, possibly on behalf of the CCP. Republicans have openly called for martial law, and using numerous underhanded (but technically legal) tactics to overturn the election, and state governors have suggested secession and civil war. The narrative he and the right wing have been building over most of the last decade - that America at all levels of society is being infiltrated and captured by leftist extremists as a pretext to some kind of communist/globalist/NWO takeover (so vote for God, Guns and the GOP) - is exactly the doomsday trigger scenario that American militias have fantasized about and wargamed over, and QAnon and many Evangelicals believe Trump has been sent by God to cleanse America of occult pedophiles and atheistic liberalism. Sinclair Lewis may or may not have said "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross," in other words, by infiltrating American gun culture and conservative Christianity, because those are the forces that control the greatest potential for populist violence in the US. Trump may not have succeeded directly, but it remains to be seen who he's laid the foundations for in the future.

derivagral 6y ago
I would suggest looking at Altemeyer's work; the authoritative streak runs on both sides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Altemeyer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Altemeyer
- krapp 6y ago
  But only one side is actually trying to negate the legitimate result of a Presidential election at the moment, and it isn't the Democrats or "the Left."
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    The beginning of 2016 was quite different though. Just because Democrats are currently the heroes doesn't buy them pardon for past sins - or protect them from future ones.