4 ms·

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. T

by DCKing 6y ago

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. It's based on the notion that Apple would be against free booting a priori for some reason. Mind you, not all bad faith arguments are unwarranted. I kind of get where it comes from. But it's important to recognize that's that what it is, and there's no reason to actually believe it.

stopFalse 6y ago
We've seen Apple remove competition from the App Store at will. This is not theoretical.
- DCKing 6y ago
  I'm not sure how that means anything when it comes to locking down Macs. If you're trying to make a general argument "Apple is capable of doing bad things", that's of course trivially true but does not at all imply they're interested in locking down the Mac's bootloader?
- scarface74 6y ago
  What “competition” have they removed?
bsaul 6y ago
The reason people assume apple will prevent you from doing what you want with your computer, is because it’s the logical consequence of the strategy they’ve followed for the past 10 years over their whole product line. From phones, to cable, to messenging software. They’re into vertical integration and walled ecosystem.
- DCKing 6y ago
  Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so. If Apple truly had this strategy they're doing a horrible job at it. Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels. I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice.
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    > Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so. Goes in both directions. > Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. Gatekeeper wasn't a thing either, until it was, indeed, a thing. > They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. Surely that's the whole point of a trap? > For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels. Sure, because right now they're trying to sell the idea of M1 Macs. > I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice. App Store, censorship, ... You could turn that around and ask why they would want to lock down their iOS devices, and why you think that those reasons wouldn't apply to Macs.
    - spideymans 6y ago
      >Surely that's the whole point of a trap? I've been hearing about this supposed secret Apple plot to lock down the Mac and take away third party software distribution and operating systems for a decade now. If this is indeed Apple's plot, then they're really slow at implementing it. Maybe they'll sort it out in another decade.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
oneplane 6y ago
Apple is trying to make a trusted computing platform (for various reasons) with the side-effect that activities that they do not feel like supporting (for various reasons, money and experience being the first that come to mind) are not available. It's not a hand-wringing evil person in a throne trying to think of ways to make people sad.
e12e 6y ago
> The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. What is the difference between an iPad pro and a MacBook? If Apple can get away with a 30% tax on all commercial software, and arbitrarily manage which applications are "allowed" - why would they not want to extend that to their laptops? If they still get people to buy and developers to develop?
- DCKing 6y ago
  > If they still get people to buy and developers to develop? Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering. Apple is still a hardware company with hardware sales making up the overwhelming majority of their profits (over 75%). It would be beyond stupid to risk that just so they can live out a control fantasy, especially because they don't need to live out that control fantasy to make good money from the Mac App Store.
  - alwillis 6y ago
    Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering. Before the M1 Macs shipped, Apple's Mac revenue hit an all-time high of a smidge over $9 billion [1]. During a global pandemic and economic crisis. The Mac will be 37 years old on January 24, 2021 and yet, it continues to gain momentum, not lose it. Between 1984 and now, not a year has gone by without the same narrative: Apple is doomed if they don't change their ways… The M1 Macs are probably selling like proverbial hotcakes—we'll find out on January 27th [2]. People seem to forget that the Mac mini, the MacBook Air and the 13-inch MacBook Pro are the entry-level, consumer oriented computers in Apple's lineup. These machines are the opening act. And even as stunningly fast as these machines are, especially on a performance per watt basis, we haven't even seen the take-no-prisoners, kick-ass professional Apple Silicon Macs yet. We’ll probably see Macs from Apple that don't have the space and power constraints of the current lineup. If they cranked the current SoC beyond the current 3.2 GHz, added more cores and started at 16 GB of RAM… they would capture another huge chunk of the market, including a significant number of Linux users… [1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/10/apple-reports-fourth-... [2] https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/ https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/

by DCKing 6y ago

stopFalse 6y ago

We've seen Apple remove competition from the App Store at will. This is not theoretical.

DCKing 6y ago
I'm not sure how that means anything when it comes to locking down Macs. If you're trying to make a general argument "Apple is capable of doing bad things", that's of course trivially true but does not at all imply they're interested in locking down the Mac's bootloader?
scarface74 6y ago
What “competition” have they removed?

bsaul 6y ago

The reason people assume apple will prevent you from doing what you want with your computer, is because it’s the logical consequence of the strategy they’ve followed for the past 10 years over their whole product line. From phones, to cable, to messenging software. They’re into vertical integration and walled ecosystem.

DCKing 6y ago
Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so. If Apple truly had this strategy they're doing a horrible job at it. Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels. I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so. Goes in both directions. > Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. Gatekeeper wasn't a thing either, until it was, indeed, a thing. > They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. Surely that's the whole point of a trap? > For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels. Sure, because right now they're trying to sell the idea of M1 Macs. > I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice. App Store, censorship, ... You could turn that around and ask why they would want to lock down their iOS devices, and why you think that those reasons wouldn't apply to Macs.
  - spideymans 6y ago
    >Surely that's the whole point of a trap? I've been hearing about this supposed secret Apple plot to lock down the Mac and take away third party software distribution and operating systems for a decade now. If this is indeed Apple's plot, then they're really slow at implementing it. Maybe they'll sort it out in another decade.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

oneplane 6y ago

Apple is trying to make a trusted computing platform (for various reasons) with the side-effect that activities that they do not feel like supporting (for various reasons, money and experience being the first that come to mind) are not available. It's not a hand-wringing evil person in a throne trying to think of ways to make people sad.

e12e 6y ago

> The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. What is the difference between an iPad pro and a MacBook? If Apple can get away with a 30% tax on all commercial software, and arbitrarily manage which applications are "allowed" - why would they not want to extend that to their laptops? If they still get people to buy and developers to develop?

DCKing 6y ago
> If they still get people to buy and developers to develop? Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering. Apple is still a hardware company with hardware sales making up the overwhelming majority of their profits (over 75%). It would be beyond stupid to risk that just so they can live out a control fantasy, especially because they don't need to live out that control fantasy to make good money from the Mac App Store.
- alwillis 6y ago
  Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering. Before the M1 Macs shipped, Apple's Mac revenue hit an all-time high of a smidge over $9 billion [1]. During a global pandemic and economic crisis. The Mac will be 37 years old on January 24, 2021 and yet, it continues to gain momentum, not lose it. Between 1984 and now, not a year has gone by without the same narrative: Apple is doomed if they don't change their ways… The M1 Macs are probably selling like proverbial hotcakes—we'll find out on January 27th [2]. People seem to forget that the Mac mini, the MacBook Air and the 13-inch MacBook Pro are the entry-level, consumer oriented computers in Apple's lineup. These machines are the opening act. And even as stunningly fast as these machines are, especially on a performance per watt basis, we haven't even seen the take-no-prisoners, kick-ass professional Apple Silicon Macs yet. We’ll probably see Macs from Apple that don't have the space and power constraints of the current lineup. If they cranked the current SoC beyond the current 3.2 GHz, added more cores and started at 16 GB of RAM… they would capture another huge chunk of the market, including a significant number of Linux users… [1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/10/apple-reports-fourth-quarter-results/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/10/apple-reports-fourth-... [2] https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/ https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/