14 ms·

U.S. Bill H.R.69 introduced – To make daylight savings time permanent

345 points by mdm12 6y ago

elmerfud 6y ago
I'm not a fan of the clock shifting twice a year but perhaps someone can explain why they'd make daylight savings permanent instead of just abolishing it? Covid-19 has shown that stores/businesses are perfectly capable of adjusting their hours and people have minimal issues handing that change. Why not just standard time everywhere. Seems like more mucking about for "reasons".
- macintux 6y ago
  Seems like you could flip a coin. Daylight saving time is bad for some longitudes and latitudes in the winter, standard time is bad for other longitudes and latitudes in the summer. I don’t think it matters in the grand scheme of things which one you pick: it’s going to suck for some.
  - chrishas35 6y ago
    Crazy idea here, but how about a....compromise! A one time 30 minute offset and we'll really screw everyone up, but it's equal to both sides.
    - macintux 6y ago
      India would probably appreciate that.
    - ianmcgowan 6y ago
      Will make working with IST India Standard Time slightly easier - the 30 minute offset is always slightly off-putting ;_)
    - kibwen 6y ago
      Billions of people in the world exist at a 30 minute offset to UTC, so it's not quite as absurd as it sounds.
      - chrishas35 6y ago
        Not at all. The crazy/absurd part is compromise of opposing view points in Congress ;)
  - 51Cards 6y ago
    In Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada the sun will "rise" officially at close to 10am for about a month.
    - dwighttk 6y ago
      This is a US bill, not Canadian. Does Canada use US law to set their time ones?
      - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
        No officially but for practical reasons they follow what the US does in regards to time. There was no widespread support for expanding the range of daylight saving time during the early 2000s but when George W. Bush changed the start and end dates of DSL to make it look like he was doing something about energy prices, Canada followed along. Given the size and depths of the ties between the two countries, it's impractical for Canada to not be in sync with the US on matters of time.
      - delecti 6y ago
        I think it's pretty safe to assume that a lot of places would follow the US's example if this law passes, and Canada is by far the most likely to do so. I don't think the US is responsible for that, per se, but it's not crazy to treat it as a given that Canada would follow suit.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - 51Cards 6y ago
        We've already passed legislation up here saying that if North America switches, we're going to follow suit.
- warmwaffles 6y ago
  Is this just to make DST the constant time? That way it never shifts again?
  - kibwen 6y ago
    Yes.
- falcolas 6y ago
  The reason I hear most often when this comes up: People like having more "sunshine" hours after their work day is done. DST provides an extra hour than standard time.
  - dawnerd 6y ago
    Some of us like the sun to go down at a reasonable time in summer, not 9-10pm.
    - thatfrenchguy 6y ago
      9-10pm is the perfect time for the sun to go down in summer, you can enjoy being outside for longer.
      - falcolas 6y ago
        Honestly, I'd like it if it went down earlier; it's fun to have a drink outside in the twilight and night hours while still going to bed at a reasonable hour (which is around 10, in my case). I can do that in the winter, sure, but in the summer there's a distinct lack of snow, which is nice.
      - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
        That's an incredibly insensitive statement to make considering how many people have light induced insomnia. They suffer greatly during the summer months to make it easier for other people to play golf after work. Just because you enjoy something doesn't mean everyone enjoys the same thing or that it is free from consequences to others that you don't have to endure yourself.
        xenocratus 6y ago
        Do you have some data on how many people have light induced insomnia?
        avalys 6y ago
        What about the people who suffer from SAD in the winter when it gets dark at 4:30 PM and they have to commute home from work in the darkness? You can't please everyone.
- gecko 6y ago
  Eh, it's just saying whether we'll stay an extra +0100 from UTC or not. I don't see a big deal. If people prefer the extra daylight in summer overall, then I don't really see it making a big difference.
  - kibwen 6y ago
    I'm one of those people who would much prefer more sunlight in the afternoon, even at the expense of less sunlight in the morning. Sign me up for this bill.
  - wenc 6y ago
    I don't mind either way, but it does make a difference for coordinating meetings and for international commerce. Adding 1 hr is advantageous because it will give the Americas (UTC -8 to -5, minus Hawaii and Alaska) an extra usable overlap hour for meetings with Europe (~UTC 0 to +2), and with Asia-Pacific (~UTC +8 to +9) for 18 weeks of the year. Europe observes daylight savings, but Asia largely doesn't [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time
    - jschulenklopper 6y ago
      Abolishing DST (or rather: switching time twice per year) in Europe is planned as well.
- chadash 6y ago
  This is being pushed by Florida politicians who want later sunsets in the winter, which is better for tourism (and general quality of life for many residents there). If you are on the Western part of a timezone (e.g. Michigan), you may prefer to be in standard time all year long, or prefer the status quo or just not care either way.
  - unethical_ban 6y ago
    as much as I would like DST to be the standard, I would find it absolutely awesome where, if Congress can agree to one or the other but not which, a binding coinflip were done to decide which one wins. In the real world, shrewd business lobbies certainly have too much interest one way or the other to let fate decide.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      I would love to see a speciality DST-themed, NIST-designed (for 50:50 surety) U.S. coin to be used in such a case.
  - purple_ferret 6y ago
    Maine has passed a bill with a similar outcome (moving to AST)
    - SloopJon 6y ago
      On the coastal side of the enormous Eastern Time Zone, I like the idea of permanent EDT or the proposed AST. Permanent DST (nationwide) is slightly better for New England than AST, because it avoids the hassle of being in a different time zone than New York, D.C., et al. On the other hand, it's probably not as good for, say, Indianapolis.
  - thewebcount 6y ago
    I grew up in Michigan and loved the late sunsets. If I could I'd always be in the western edge of my timezone during DST.
  - 6y ago
- bichiliad 6y ago
  In short, because DST better aligns with most people's day schedules than standard time does because it adds daylight time in the evening instead of in the morning (I'd love a better source than this[0], but it matches the rationale I've always heard). [0]: https://time.com/5888112/daylight-savings-time-permanent/ https://time.com/5888112/daylight-savings-time-permanent/
  - jonny_eh 6y ago
    > DST better aligns with most people's day schedules I don't understand how this can be true. If it's better for people to wake up an hour earlier or later, then do that. Who cares what the clock says?
    - quest88 6y ago
      School / work / other obligations start at a time that would prevent people from sleeping an extra hour.
    - thayne 6y ago
      > Who cares what the clock says? People whose schedules are dictated by another entity, such as a school or employer.
    - jfrankamp 6y ago
      Yesterday my wife and kid were trying to go for a walk in the neighborhood before the light ended and the sun set. My work expects me to be callable until 5. I sent them out without me at 4, the sun sets here around 4:30. I never left the house. I would pay actual money to get that hour back and be on DST year round. I would be interested to see if the split of opinion on this has to do with early risers/night owl orientation primarily, for me more light earlier has almost no value, but light at the end of the work day is worth a lot.
      - mac01021 6y ago
        > for me more light earlier has almost no value, but light at the end of the work day is worth a lot. I agree with this, but why wouldn't we stay on standard time and just all switch to starting school and work an hour earlier? It would achieve the same thing as permanent DST except it would also preserve the property of our time system that midnight and noon are the times that the sun is lowest and highest in the sky.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  I'm in the camp that wants "permanent DST" - like others have said, I prefer the light after work, into the dinner hours. I live in the southern US and at winter solstice, it's dark by 6pm. So strange.
  - vhodges 6y ago
    :)... I am not so far north (49th basically) and it's dark by 4:40 on the solstice for us. For the summer solstice though it's light out till almost 10pm
- nostrademons 6y ago
  Making DST permanent effectively shifts all of the U.S. one timezone eastward (so EDT = UTC+4, PDT = UTC+7, instead of +5 and +8 for their standard time equivalents). People seem to prefer the earlier timezone (which gives extra daylight in the evening at the expense of the morning), and it also makes collaboration with Europe a bit easier.
  - kibwen 6y ago
    I certainly prefer it, but I think it's too soon to say that "people" prefer it, unless you are aware of some kind of public poll that asked the question.
    - Abfrage 6y ago
      The European Union had a poll: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker-pledges/a-45300586 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker...
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      There's a lot of variation based on what part of time zones people live in (and how far north they are). Here we have a month where daylight isn't a whole lot better than 8:00-5:00, so it's always amusing to hear people say that they like it to be daylight when they wake up (so 1.5 hours less sun here than San Francisco today, which is where the last person I saw with that complaint lives).
    - SllX 6y ago
      California voted on it in a manner which was a ballot initiative but functionally served as a poll. The text authorized the State legislature to make the change if Congress passed a law allowing the State to make the change. It passed.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      WA/OR/CA are set to go DST permanently as soon as the federal government allows them to. Wonder where all the states’ rights small government politicians are.
- lr 6y ago
  The interesting thing is the person sponsoring the bill is from FL, where I don't think it matters to them which time to keep as much. For more Northern latitudes, both have issues for particular times of the year (like the sun coming up at 4:00 AM in the summer in most of NY State if we stuck to Standard time). But I also think this person is choosing DST over ST because, in 2019, Florida passed a law to make DST the normal time. Of course, it was symbolic because a state can't choose to be on DST (only to stay on ST): https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/florida-passed-a-bill-making-daylight-saving-time-permanent-so-why-are-we-turning-our-clocks-back https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/florida-passed-a-bi...
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    That's exactly why Florida is sponsoring it - they don't care which way is chosen, they just don't want to change their clocks anymore.
    - eppsilon 6y ago
      AZ is in a similar position...we just don't change ours
- leobabauta 6y ago
  Here’s a good visual way of exploring that: http://andywoodruff.com/blog/where-to-hate-daylight-saving-time-and-where-to-love-it/ http://andywoodruff.com/blog/where-to-hate-daylight-saving-t...
- rcoveson 6y ago
  DST is nearly 8 months of the year. Making it permanent is a smaller move than abolishing it. "Standard time" is just a name. Daylight time is actually more "standard" from the perspective of most Americans.
  - LaMarseillaise 6y ago
    Except it is not just a name: standard time is supposed to indicate that the sun is at its zenith at noon somewhere in a timezone. If we do not care about that, why not abolish all timezones while we are at it?
    - jgwil2 6y ago
      It is just a name. No one has cared about solar noon since the 19th century, when every town set their own clock. The point of timezones is for everyone to work from the same reference with respect to train schedules, originally, and now flights, phone calls, bank hours, etc.
    - rcoveson 6y ago
      And daylight time is that plus one hour. They're both standardized somehow or other, that's not the point. The error bars on that relationship with the noonday sun are large enough that neither daylight time nor standard time actually fit that definition anyway. Time zones cover an hour-wide area, and orbital mechanics of the Earth and Sun cause noon to drift a lot throughout the year. Both are workable, but one is more familiar, and that's daylight time.
- skywhopper 6y ago
  If it’s always daylight saving time, then that is the standard time. We use daylight saving time 2/3 of the year already. Staying on DST is the least disruptive option.
- pkulak 6y ago
  It's more politically viable to give people an hour after work to shop, even though it's far more healthy to wake up in the sunlight rather than darkness, and it's asinine to make children walk to school in the dark.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Most geeks have at some point been nocturnal, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. We therefore recognise that the clock is just an instrument showing the current approximate position of the sun and nothing else. But normal people sort of, well, worship the clock. The clock tells them when to get up and when to come home. It's kinda lame, but it is what it is.
  - moftz 6y ago
    People work together on things during the day and also happen to want to be able to visit stores and businesses around the same time every day. Also people sleep at night because it's easier to sleep in the dark than in the light. It sounds pompous to act like the clock is some sort of religious ritual and how anyone that wakes up in the morning to go to a 9-5 job is just a sheep. Most people like being awake when other people are awake so every one can do things together. Just like how NTP helps synchronize devices across the internet, regular clocks help people do the same.
- echelon 6y ago
  I don't want it to be dark when I finish work. DST gives us daylight to enjoy at the end of the day. I don't care if it's dark in the morning. I'm not a morning person, and I want the sun reserved for the evening. Restaurants and businesses are going to like this change too.
- grzm 6y ago
  “Daylight savings time” is a bit of a misnomer as commonly used, particularly in this case. What people generally find frustrating, and what this change is addressing, is the twice-yearly time change. People (and businesses and the like) will still schedule things when it makes sense for them. Whether a meeting is at 9:00 or 10:00 or some other number isn’t the real point.
swimmadude66 6y ago
nice
- hallway_monitor 6y ago
  4 minutes too slow :(
bearjaws 6y ago
Will be fun to see all the poorly implemented handling of DST in software implode.
- orblivion 6y ago
  DST dates already changed in 2007. But I guess that's 14 years worth of more bad implementations ready to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Change_to_daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Chan...
  - pionar 6y ago
    I bought an alarm clock in 2004 that had "automatic" DST changes as a feature. It was apparently implemented with hard-coded dates to change the offset, as when the dates changed in 2005, it changed on the wrong date. Made me late for work one fall day in 2005. I got a new alarm clock soon after.
    - orblivion 6y ago
      Epic "you had one job" story.
- chr1 6y ago
  There was a similar change in Russia and Armenia several years ago, and nothing fun or spectacular have happened. Only old computers without internet access had required manual update of clock settings.
  - zinekeller 6y ago
    Edit: it is indeed Iran, except that it is now fixed relative to the Islamic lunar calendar (so updates can be pushed as soon as Iran declares what is the date corresponding to the Gregorian calendar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Standard_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Standard_Time). Nope, it happens about quarterly because no-one can predict the moon and the cloud cover with such precision (I believe it's Iran, but I might be wrong and it might be another Arab country) among other things.
gpm 6y ago
> and for other purposes. sigh
- nyghtly 6y ago
  Reminds me of the episode from Veep where Jonah tries to pass a bill that abolishes DST. The bill is written by an outside team of analysts funded by a private prison magnate, Sherman Tans. He packs the bill with extras intended to expand the prison population. Jonah accepts the bill because he's an idiot and doesn't like to read. He only got elected because he went negative against the president, a member of his own party. In the end, the bill fails because Jonah flies to close to the sun.
- craftyguy 6y ago
  The text of the bill hasn't been submitted yet, so we don't know what 'other purposes' is. So in typical 'hacker' 'news' fashion, this has been upvoted based purely on title alone!
- quasse 6y ago
  Exactly. I was going to write a note to my House representative in support of this bill, but I absolutely will not do that with the text unreleased and "for other purposes" in the title there.
Mountain_Skies 6y ago
Why not make 11 the maximum volume on the amp?
f154hfds 6y ago
Forgive my ignorance - but what's stopping employers/employees/schools from shifting their working hours instead? Doesn't that seem less drastic and extreme (and easier for a government to implement)?
- skywhopper 6y ago
  Why is that easier? Suddenly at some point in the year your entire schedule shifts by an hour?
  - wnoise 6y ago
    Or possibly it shifts half an hour 4 times a year. There's lots of room for experimentation and variability.
- johnzim 6y ago
  You end up with a situation where say 20% have shifted and 80% haven't. Then over time, like planets falling into a ring of orbits, everyone ends up shifting back because too many other people are on the other schedule. These sorts of things need critical mass to have effect. That said, with all the lockdowns and isolated living, I do wonder if the social conformity effect will be as strong going forward.
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  I've had the same issue for many years. I like the time still be coupled to the position of the sun and I also prefer earlier sunrises. The issue here is that the individual choice you and I would prefer doesn't exist for parents since their schedule is dictated by schools. Edit: also not all jobs offer that choice. Think things like construction, public transit or hospital jobs
- Eridrus 6y ago
  Hours are interlinked across society. If you drive your kid to school, you need that to roughly line up with when you go to work. Maybe you don't have this constraint, but your coworker does, so if they were to keep the existing hours, you have some incentive to keep the same hours too, etc.
spullara 6y ago
I can't wait to have DST year round in CA. Standard time is awful.
kibwen 6y ago
Looks like it actually is easier to ask the government to shift the whole country's time zones rather than successfully ask employers to let their employees shift their schedule an hour earlier, which would have the same effect.
- arbitrage 6y ago
  This has been the case for well over 18 years, now. Congress can agree on literally nothing except futzing with Daylight Savings, so that's what they do to prove they're working in a bipartisanship-like manner. What utter garbage and a laughable excuse for a government.
- zonotope 6y ago
  Change one law, or negotiate with hundreds of thousands of employers, school boards, day care centers, among other things, simultaneously, in the hopes that they all come to the same decision. Seems easier to me.
  - syshum 6y ago
    Directives backed by the threat of violence (i.e law) often are easier, does not make them ethical or right
- ironmagma 6y ago
  People aren't codebases, a broken refactor manifests itself not as total societal collapse (a "crash") but slow social disease, with people arguing about the cause. To get everyone aligned, we need a law, not just to tell everyone to be flexible with each other.
- ajmurmann 6y ago
  As mentioned in another comment, not everyone had this choice. Parents' time is bound to the school's schedule. Many jobs inherently don't cover this flexibility. Think construction, health care, public transit, education. It's really a very large percentage of the population, but one that's underrepresented on HN. I have none of these constraints and in fact shifted my schedule by 2 hours without any problem. So it can be hard to see the very different reality and guard rails others have to deal with.
ohyes 6y ago
I'm against this because it will require software changes.
- amluto 6y ago
  You mean you would need to update your time zone database, just like you already do on a regular basis?
  - ohyes 6y ago
    ah, I guess I'm the only one who makes things that are air-gapped and don't take updates on the regular. It's hard being in my own little bubble.
    - nemetroid 6y ago
      Air-gapped and automatically handles DST correctly seems like a small niche to me, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
      - ohyes 6y ago
        Anything safety critical with strict reporting requirements (clock must be correct so logs are accurate). Honestly, most things that need to be air-gapped also need to have correct clocks. Most other things also need to have correct clocks / time, but it is easier to use available stuff in that situation. industrial control systems, medical devices, transportation systems, important, critical infrastructure stuff.
        amluto 6y ago
        Okay, I have to ask: shouldn’t a system like this use TAI or at least UTC? If you are air gapped and really need accurate time, you at least have to deal with leap seconds. Even if a one-second error doesn’t bother you, there’s an entire two-hour interval when DST ends in which the local time is ambiguous. Or do these systems try to do the right thing by distinguishing 2:30 AM PST from 2:30 AM PDT?
clajiness 6y ago
The government can't even call it what it is; Daylight saving time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time
- mcv 6y ago
  Maybe it's the time when you can save up some daylight for a rainy day. Those are your daylight savings.
- bpicolo 6y ago
  > , also daylight savings time I've never once heard the former colloquially
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Didn’t know how much more annoying day light savings could be until I had small children in the house. You spend so much time trying to schedule bedtime for everyone’s sanity. Having an hour screw up the schedule because they aren’t tired or over sleepy is very annoying (for about a week).
- randlet 6y ago
  Taper bedtimes 10 minutes at a time over a week!
  - abcc8 6y ago
    While tapering bedtime is sometimes possible (not when they can read the clocks!), you can't taper when they wake up quite as easily. I would expect that this suggestion cannot be easily implemented by many families.
  - hpoe 6y ago
    Parent of small children, you can certainly try that. It turns out though that small children don't care when you put them to bed they aren't going to sleep until they are tired, and they'll spend the extra time coming out of their room, screaming, fighting, or kicking their door.
  - jp42 6y ago
    What I learned from my toddler is - they do what they want to do. It takes couple of weeks of consistent efforts to change his behavior. Sadly one week is not enough.
- lovecg 6y ago
  Before kids, moving clocks back meant an extra hour of sleep. After kids, everyone still wakes up on time.
gojomo 6y ago
A good 1st step, then abolish US time zones. Works for China & India! (While all the normies are groggy, it should then be easy to slip a change to nationwide UTC in as the coup de grace.)
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Surely you mean TAI? To hell with leap seconds.
- chundicus 6y ago
  I didn't know they didn't have time zones. Are people there just used to the fact 8am will look very different depending on which region your in?
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Most of the population outside of the natural time zone are small rural villages so they just ignore the official time. There is a major city far in the west, and they use two time zones simultaneously. It's a contentious issue, because which time zone you use is basically race-based. Han Chinese use Bejing time, and Uighurs use the local zone.
    - chundicus 6y ago
      Wow, that's pretty interesting.
- kibwen 6y ago
  That only works in China because 1) authoritarianism, and 2) because China's population is heavily concentrated in the west, where the time zone is natural. The US population is much more evenly split between the east and west, so you'd end up with a much more discontented population on average. You could maybe get away with two US timezones, at best. Four (in the lower 48) is already kind of stretching it; swathes of New England are discussing breaking off into a fifth.
  - 6y ago
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
This is the wrong direction, we should be on standard time year round! Daylight saving time gives you more daylight during the hours people are awake, but only because it forces everyone to wake up earlier! We already have major issues with e.g. making teenagers wake up earlier than most of their bodies are tuned for at that age. How much worse is it going to be if they have to get up an hour earlier in the winter? (Remember: what our bodies consider "early" is dependent on when the sun rises, and not the numbers we put on our clocks.) And just to top it off, you'll be forcing a lot of kids to walk to school in the dark. --- Edit: To be clear, it's not just children! On weekends and holidays when people don't have to work, how much of the population do you think wakes up right when the sun rises, in order to maximize their daylight? I certainly don't have any data on this, but I would guess a large majority take the opportunity to sleep in. Having extra daylight seems really nice at first, and it is. Unfortunately, shifting clocks doesn't actually create more sun, it just creates a societal mandate. My view is that we already start our workdays too early, particularly when you take commute times into account.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Even with daylight savings time they're still getting up "earlier than their bodies are tuned for" And considering that they'd be getting hundreds of hours more daylight after their working day for the entirety of their adult lives it seems like a more than fair trade. Teenagers are far more resilient than young kids when it comes to this kind of thing. Extending the portion of the year that parents can let younger kids recreate outdoors in daylight has far more societal benefit than whether a teenager is 10% more irritable. The teenager problem could also be solved by letting them go to school on their own and decoupling their school timing from adults work schedules.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    > Extending the portion of the year that parents can let younger kids recreate outdoors in daylight has far more societal benefit. Are you sure? Have you done the research? They had this discussion in Iceland recently and I think they found this point inconclusive. I think health officials still favored moving out of permanent DST into permanent standard because they know the health benefits of good sleeping, and they know that many children are sleep deprived.
baxter001 6y ago
Almost a yearly tradition: https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22source%22:%22legislation%22,%22search%22:%22daylight%20savings%20time%22}&searchResultViewType=expanded https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22source%22:%22legislati...
- LaserPineapple 6y ago
  So regular, you could set your clocks to it...
  - mmcconnell1618 6y ago
    Looking at the number of bills introduced right at the start of the new congress I'm under the impression that many of these are introduced only so the congressperson can go back and say "I introduced a bill to do ____" and brag about it. https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7B%22source%22%3A%22legislation%22%2C%22congress%22%3A%22117%22%7D&pageSize=100&page=1 https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7B%22source%22%3A%22legis... It would be interesting to data mine these and see how effective certain legislators are at just introducing bills compared to actually getting them passed.
    - licyeus 6y ago
      Govtrack tracks this and compiles report cards that (mostly) reveal what you're looking for, e.g., its reports on Bills Introduced, Bills Out of Committee, and Laws Enacted [1]. The 2020 report cards should come out sometime this month. 1 - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2019/house https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2019/h...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  This is why we should remove any "legislation introduced" posts - as a blanket rule. It might as well say "so and so said...". It's worthless news.
  - dang 6y ago
_qulr 6y ago
Fiddling with the clocks while Rome burns.
vhodges 6y ago
My .02... My body seems to be on Summer time anyways (ie in the winter I am up at 4am instead of 5am) and crashing at 7:30-8:00pm (instead of 9pm) so I prefer permanent DST (which BC, WA, OR and CA have all agreed to in principle).
oblio 6y ago
Meanwhile, in the EU: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parliament-votes-to-scrap-daylight-saving-time-from-2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parli...
disown 6y ago
Just pick one and stick to it. Enough with the flipping back and forth already.
hiimtroymclure 6y ago
unpopular opinion - I like daylight savings. its the closest thing I have to 'seasons' in my state.
- craftyguy 6y ago
  > unpopular opinion - I like daylight savings. lol. the title is literally about making DST permanent. What's 'unpopular' about that?
  - hiimtroymclure 6y ago
    because just about every single person in the comments is bashing this?
- eplanit 6y ago
  IMHO: Positive-minded, generally happy people like DST, where negative, possibly depressed people like the idea of year-round ST.
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  Sounds like you could be a Texan. ;)
cafard 6y ago
In the winter of 1973-1974, after the oil shock, the government declared winter-time DST. I did not care for it. I was carpooling to school with up to five other persons, arriving at campus when it was just light at 8 am. Some portion of Congress suffers from the superstition that DST saves energy. It does not appear that there is a cure for this.
- Mountain_Skies 6y ago
  It's a way for politicians to look like they're doing something while shifting the burden of dealing with the consequences of the time shift off onto everyone else.
amir734jj 6y ago
Daylight saving should be eliminated for good! it causes more hassle instead of doing good. I work at a large financial company and we have tons of jobs and data-sources that need to run in sync. Everyone at my department is on stand-by when there is a day light saving. I get PTSD thinking about it.
fareesh 6y ago
If this were to happen, how many systems are out there in the wild that have some quirky implementation of handling DST which will result in weird behavior? I remember seeing the built-in tick on CircleMUD go crazy if you were online at midnight during the switch.
asciimov 6y ago
I really don't care which time they pick as long as we pick one and stick to it.
bjt2n3904 6y ago
Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call! For the times, they are a changin'!
- bjt2n3904 6y ago
  I was very proud of this pun :(
Balgair 6y ago
Edit: I was wrong! My apologies!
- moonka 6y ago
  >Just because the Federal Gov of the US does this does not mean that the states have to as well. States can choose to stay on Standard, or go back and forth, but currently they can't choose to stay on DST. I think WA, OR, and CA have all passed legislation that would move them over once the feds allow it.
- kevinpet 6y ago
  Arizona doesn't swing between anything. They are on MST. It happens that MST and PDT are the same offset from UTC, but the middle letter means something.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Just because the Federal Gov of the US does this does not mean that the states have to as well. Yes it does: the Federal government currently allows states to choose between permanent Standard Time and Standard/Daylight switch at the point specified in federal law, it also dictates the timezones in the US and their boundaries. So, e.g., California has a choice between permanent PST and PST/PDT switches (it has chosen the latter), and Arizona between permanent MST and MST/MDT switches (they’ve chosen the former). If the feds get rid of the option for DST switching and the option to chose permanent standard time in favor of mandating permanent daylight time with no other options, then, yes, the states have to do it. Now, if they replace the daylight switch option with a permanent daylight option, that would be a different story. And if they just added a permanent daylight option, that would be an even more different story. And the text isn’t up for HR 69. But I suspect its straight “permanent DST is the only option” rule.
echelon 6y ago
Congress is finally doing something amazing! Summertime daylight hours are so much more enjoyable than the winter doldrums. Nobody cares where the sun is in the sky at noon. That was always location dependent anyway. This pushes us out of the farming era and into one where we care about workers' and businesses' qualify of life. Amazing job, Congress! Pass it!
- toast0 6y ago
  I assume this is sarcasm, but I can't really tell. Unless you're equatorial, there's simply more daylight in the summer, regardless of where it shows up on the clock face. Moving the meager sunlight of the winter around won't make it more abundant, and won't make it shine through the clouds that may appear more often in the winter, depending on your climate.
  - echelon 6y ago
    > Moving the meager sunlight of the winter around won't make it more abundant It'll mean I don't sleep through an hour of valuable sunlight, and I suspect more people wake up after sunrise than before it.
sampo 6y ago
Small link dump to some research. They compare people living near the western and eastern borders of their timezones. All results point to same direction: Living near the western border of your timezone correlates with more health problems. Permanent daylight saving time would increase these health problems. It is the wrong way to go. Permanent daylight saving time maybe appeals to intuition, but this is empirical research, and it points to the opposite direction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167629618309718 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01676... Same: https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.upload.pdf https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.up... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incidence_of_winter_depression_varies_within_time_zone https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incid...
- jschulenklopper 6y ago
  Here’s another one, with a similar conclusion: https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780
zentiggr 6y ago
Let's just skip the standard/DST debate entirely... <sarcasm>Sunrise is 0800, for each time zone. The daily clock runs from there until next sunrise, when it resets to 0800 from whatever time it reached. Now no one has a consistent local time, and we'll run on UTC +-x if the precise time is needed, and on local sunrise clocks for everyday scheduling and time telling. There's a consistent amount of snlight in the morning so people can choose when to get up relative to sunrise, and SAD people / evening sun people get what they want when there actually IS sun to be had. </sarcasm>
xyst 6y ago
Slight off topic - How do you all get your representatives to support or not support specific bills in the house and senate? Is e-mailing and calling them enough?
runarberg 6y ago
I really think that the ruling class should think about this carefully before moving on with this. It is a very popular issue, and I’m sure they would gain a lot of political capital by moving this through, as many people support this. However they need to do this carefully. There are some health questions unanswered. And some research is needed before they do this. Sleep is important and sleep deprivation is a thing that affects some portion of the working class, and some portion of school children. Before they take this step, they should know the effect this would have on the sleep behavior of this population. If moving to a permanent DST would further disrupt the sleep cycle of this population, the result could be dangerous. I really hope that the ruling class consults public health experts, and asks for research and goes with their recommendation which is based on that research rather then simply going by what people think they want. Sleep is to important to be messed with and disrupted because of a rushed—but popular—decision.
- jgwil2 6y ago
  We already know that changing the clocks twice a year leads to sleep deprivation for everyone - more car accidents, more heart attacks, etc. The whole point is to stop the twice yearly disruption of our sleep.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    What public health experts need to find out then is whether moving to permanent DST is the right call then, as opposed to moving to permanent standard time. I have a hunch that standard is a better choice for most people’s health.
    - WorldMaker 6y ago
      The US spends 2/3rds of a year in DST rather than Standard Time, so that would possibly imply there is no health difference or the health difference is actually weighted towards DST at this point. Also, a problem with hour-wide timezones is that DST is closer to what "standard time" is supposed to be (when solar noon and observed noon most closely match) naturally on the western edges of the timezones. So any arguments over whether DST or Standard is "healthier" also likely have to take into account how much the population is weighted to one edge or the other.
benlivengood 6y ago
About the only thing that people truly synchronize on is that lunch is around noon, but practically there's an hour of flexibility on when people actually eat. When is the official time for work to start or end? Maybe 7, 8, or 9? Office work seems to end around 5 or 6. School starts sometime between 6 and 10 AM depending on grade and locale. My point is that there already is no standard wake/sleep schedule. Noon may be the tightest bound on when people all want to be doing the same thing, but importantly that happens after everyone is already awake so picking DST or ST is arbitrary. People who want sunset or sunrise to occur earlier or later in the day have a conflict coordinating with other people in their life, not a problem with official timezones. Maybe pick your job and school district based on start times instead. I'm happy to jump on the first bandwagon that gets rid of seasonal changes to timezones.
kdtop 6y ago
Well, there goes my garden. Messing with the hours of sunlight screws the plant's growth all up... :-\
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
frankus 6y ago
The whole reason we have time zones is so that midday (12:00) happens somewhat close to the middle of the day, and that midnight happens somewhat close to the middle of the night. I'm not sure what shifting everyone's timezone east accomplishes. My hunch is we'll all adapt by shifting activities/business hours/school hours and then instead of griping that "It's only X o'clock and the sun is already setting" we'll be griping that "It's only X+1 o'clock and the sun is already setting" and people will start proposing "permanent daylight + 1" time.
- rkuykendall-com 6y ago
  Think of this less as shifting one direction or another, and more as discontinuing the endless bi-annual shifting. It just so happens that by discontinuing it, we have to pick a side, and people seem to prefer this one.
  - frankus 6y ago
    Of course. I should have made it clear that I'm slightly in favor of a switch to permanent standard time (with liberal application of things like winter and summer hours for businesses and schools), but would prefer the current system to permanent daylight time. I think the preference for permanent standard time, while perhaps real, is shortsighted. The fact that in winter the days seem too short will continue to exist forever, and the yearly switch to standard time simply rubs our noses in this fact. There's also an element of Chesterson's Fence, where few people alive today are familiar with the problems that DST was invented to solve (most areas that avoid switching seem to be at moderate latitudes). The flaws of the current system—and the problems that it leaves unsolved—are well-known and tangible, whereas the flaws and shortcomings of the proposed system are unknown and abstract. So of course changing it looks superficially appealing. Applying this principle to political systems is left as an exercise to the reader.
annoyingnoob 6y ago
I don't really care which way we go permanently, be we should stop flipping the clocks twice a year.
jschulenklopper 6y ago
https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 “Although chronic effects of remaining in daylight saving time year-round have not been well studied, daylight saving time is less aligned with human circadian biology—which, due to the impacts of the delayed natural light/dark cycle on human activity, could result in circadian misalignment, which has been associated in some studies with increased cardiovascular disease risk, metabolic syndrome and other health risks. It is, therefore, the position of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine that these seasonal time changes should be abolished in favor of a fixed, national, year-round standard time.”
jschulenklopper 6y ago
They tried that in Russia (!)... and quickly reverted it. “On Tuesday, July 1, 2014, the Russian State Duma voted to end the widely unpopular permanent "summer time" in Russia. President Vladimir Putin signed the law on July 22, 2014.” https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/russia-abandons-permanent-summer-time.html https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/russia-abandons-perman...
spacemanmatt 6y ago
Daylight changes. Shall we change the time that everything happens by altering the schedule or the time scale?
a3n 6y ago
"But what about the cows!" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cows+milk+daylight+saving+time&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cows+milk+daylight+saving+time&t=f...
briznian 6y ago
I say split the difference and permanently set the time forward 30 minutes. Then never change it again.

345 points by mdm12 6y ago

I'm not a fan of the clock shifting twice a year but perhaps someone can explain why they'd make daylight savings permanent instead of just abolishing it? Covid-19 has shown that stores/businesses are perfectly capable of adjusting their hours and people have minimal issues handing that change. Why not just standard time everywhere. Seems like more mucking about for "reasons".

macintux 6y ago
Seems like you could flip a coin. Daylight saving time is bad for some longitudes and latitudes in the winter, standard time is bad for other longitudes and latitudes in the summer. I don’t think it matters in the grand scheme of things which one you pick: it’s going to suck for some.
- chrishas35 6y ago
  Crazy idea here, but how about a....compromise! A one time 30 minute offset and we'll really screw everyone up, but it's equal to both sides.
  - macintux 6y ago
    India would probably appreciate that.
  - ianmcgowan 6y ago
    Will make working with IST India Standard Time slightly easier - the 30 minute offset is always slightly off-putting ;_)
  - kibwen 6y ago
    Billions of people in the world exist at a 30 minute offset to UTC, so it's not quite as absurd as it sounds.
    - chrishas35 6y ago
      Not at all. The crazy/absurd part is compromise of opposing view points in Congress ;)
- 51Cards 6y ago
  In Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada the sun will "rise" officially at close to 10am for about a month.
  - dwighttk 6y ago
    This is a US bill, not Canadian. Does Canada use US law to set their time ones?
    - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
      No officially but for practical reasons they follow what the US does in regards to time. There was no widespread support for expanding the range of daylight saving time during the early 2000s but when George W. Bush changed the start and end dates of DSL to make it look like he was doing something about energy prices, Canada followed along. Given the size and depths of the ties between the two countries, it's impractical for Canada to not be in sync with the US on matters of time.
    - delecti 6y ago
      I think it's pretty safe to assume that a lot of places would follow the US's example if this law passes, and Canada is by far the most likely to do so. I don't think the US is responsible for that, per se, but it's not crazy to treat it as a given that Canada would follow suit.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 51Cards 6y ago
      We've already passed legislation up here saying that if North America switches, we're going to follow suit.
warmwaffles 6y ago
Is this just to make DST the constant time? That way it never shifts again?
- kibwen 6y ago
  Yes.
falcolas 6y ago
The reason I hear most often when this comes up: People like having more "sunshine" hours after their work day is done. DST provides an extra hour than standard time.
- dawnerd 6y ago
  Some of us like the sun to go down at a reasonable time in summer, not 9-10pm.
  - thatfrenchguy 6y ago
    9-10pm is the perfect time for the sun to go down in summer, you can enjoy being outside for longer.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Honestly, I'd like it if it went down earlier; it's fun to have a drink outside in the twilight and night hours while still going to bed at a reasonable hour (which is around 10, in my case). I can do that in the winter, sure, but in the summer there's a distinct lack of snow, which is nice.
    - Mountain_Skies 6y ago
      That's an incredibly insensitive statement to make considering how many people have light induced insomnia. They suffer greatly during the summer months to make it easier for other people to play golf after work. Just because you enjoy something doesn't mean everyone enjoys the same thing or that it is free from consequences to others that you don't have to endure yourself.
      - xenocratus 6y ago
        Do you have some data on how many people have light induced insomnia?
      - avalys 6y ago
        What about the people who suffer from SAD in the winter when it gets dark at 4:30 PM and they have to commute home from work in the darkness? You can't please everyone.
gecko 6y ago
Eh, it's just saying whether we'll stay an extra +0100 from UTC or not. I don't see a big deal. If people prefer the extra daylight in summer overall, then I don't really see it making a big difference.
- kibwen 6y ago
  I'm one of those people who would much prefer more sunlight in the afternoon, even at the expense of less sunlight in the morning. Sign me up for this bill.
- wenc 6y ago
  I don't mind either way, but it does make a difference for coordinating meetings and for international commerce. Adding 1 hr is advantageous because it will give the Americas (UTC -8 to -5, minus Hawaii and Alaska) an extra usable overlap hour for meetings with Europe (~UTC 0 to +2), and with Asia-Pacific (~UTC +8 to +9) for 18 weeks of the year. Europe observes daylight savings, but Asia largely doesn't [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time
  - jschulenklopper 6y ago
    Abolishing DST (or rather: switching time twice per year) in Europe is planned as well.
chadash 6y ago
This is being pushed by Florida politicians who want later sunsets in the winter, which is better for tourism (and general quality of life for many residents there). If you are on the Western part of a timezone (e.g. Michigan), you may prefer to be in standard time all year long, or prefer the status quo or just not care either way.
- unethical_ban 6y ago
  as much as I would like DST to be the standard, I would find it absolutely awesome where, if Congress can agree to one or the other but not which, a binding coinflip were done to decide which one wins. In the real world, shrewd business lobbies certainly have too much interest one way or the other to let fate decide.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    I would love to see a speciality DST-themed, NIST-designed (for 50:50 surety) U.S. coin to be used in such a case.
- purple_ferret 6y ago
  Maine has passed a bill with a similar outcome (moving to AST)
  - SloopJon 6y ago
    On the coastal side of the enormous Eastern Time Zone, I like the idea of permanent EDT or the proposed AST. Permanent DST (nationwide) is slightly better for New England than AST, because it avoids the hassle of being in a different time zone than New York, D.C., et al. On the other hand, it's probably not as good for, say, Indianapolis.
- thewebcount 6y ago
  I grew up in Michigan and loved the late sunsets. If I could I'd always be in the western edge of my timezone during DST.
- 6y ago
bichiliad 6y ago
In short, because DST better aligns with most people's day schedules than standard time does because it adds daylight time in the evening instead of in the morning (I'd love a better source than this[0], but it matches the rationale I've always heard). [0]: https://time.com/5888112/daylight-savings-time-permanent/ https://time.com/5888112/daylight-savings-time-permanent/
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  > DST better aligns with most people's day schedules I don't understand how this can be true. If it's better for people to wake up an hour earlier or later, then do that. Who cares what the clock says?
  - quest88 6y ago
    School / work / other obligations start at a time that would prevent people from sleeping an extra hour.
  - thayne 6y ago
    > Who cares what the clock says? People whose schedules are dictated by another entity, such as a school or employer.
  - jfrankamp 6y ago
    Yesterday my wife and kid were trying to go for a walk in the neighborhood before the light ended and the sun set. My work expects me to be callable until 5. I sent them out without me at 4, the sun sets here around 4:30. I never left the house. I would pay actual money to get that hour back and be on DST year round. I would be interested to see if the split of opinion on this has to do with early risers/night owl orientation primarily, for me more light earlier has almost no value, but light at the end of the work day is worth a lot.
    - mac01021 6y ago
      > for me more light earlier has almost no value, but light at the end of the work day is worth a lot. I agree with this, but why wouldn't we stay on standard time and just all switch to starting school and work an hour earlier? It would achieve the same thing as permanent DST except it would also preserve the property of our time system that midnight and noon are the times that the sun is lowest and highest in the sky.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
unethical_ban 6y ago
I'm in the camp that wants "permanent DST" - like others have said, I prefer the light after work, into the dinner hours. I live in the southern US and at winter solstice, it's dark by 6pm. So strange.
- vhodges 6y ago
  :)... I am not so far north (49th basically) and it's dark by 4:40 on the solstice for us. For the summer solstice though it's light out till almost 10pm
nostrademons 6y ago
Making DST permanent effectively shifts all of the U.S. one timezone eastward (so EDT = UTC+4, PDT = UTC+7, instead of +5 and +8 for their standard time equivalents). People seem to prefer the earlier timezone (which gives extra daylight in the evening at the expense of the morning), and it also makes collaboration with Europe a bit easier.
- kibwen 6y ago
  I certainly prefer it, but I think it's too soon to say that "people" prefer it, unless you are aware of some kind of public poll that asked the question.
  - Abfrage 6y ago
    The European Union had a poll: https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker-pledges/a-45300586 https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-stop-changing-the-clocks-juncker...
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    There's a lot of variation based on what part of time zones people live in (and how far north they are). Here we have a month where daylight isn't a whole lot better than 8:00-5:00, so it's always amusing to hear people say that they like it to be daylight when they wake up (so 1.5 hours less sun here than San Francisco today, which is where the last person I saw with that complaint lives).
  - SllX 6y ago
    California voted on it in a manner which was a ballot initiative but functionally served as a poll. The text authorized the State legislature to make the change if Congress passed a law allowing the State to make the change. It passed.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    WA/OR/CA are set to go DST permanently as soon as the federal government allows them to. Wonder where all the states’ rights small government politicians are.
lr 6y ago
The interesting thing is the person sponsoring the bill is from FL, where I don't think it matters to them which time to keep as much. For more Northern latitudes, both have issues for particular times of the year (like the sun coming up at 4:00 AM in the summer in most of NY State if we stuck to Standard time). But I also think this person is choosing DST over ST because, in 2019, Florida passed a law to make DST the normal time. Of course, it was symbolic because a state can't choose to be on DST (only to stay on ST): https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/florida-passed-a-bill-making-daylight-saving-time-permanent-so-why-are-we-turning-our-clocks-back https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/state/florida-passed-a-bi...
- koheripbal 6y ago
  That's exactly why Florida is sponsoring it - they don't care which way is chosen, they just don't want to change their clocks anymore.
  - eppsilon 6y ago
    AZ is in a similar position...we just don't change ours
leobabauta 6y ago
Here’s a good visual way of exploring that: http://andywoodruff.com/blog/where-to-hate-daylight-saving-time-and-where-to-love-it/ http://andywoodruff.com/blog/where-to-hate-daylight-saving-t...
rcoveson 6y ago
DST is nearly 8 months of the year. Making it permanent is a smaller move than abolishing it. "Standard time" is just a name. Daylight time is actually more "standard" from the perspective of most Americans.
- LaMarseillaise 6y ago
  Except it is not just a name: standard time is supposed to indicate that the sun is at its zenith at noon somewhere in a timezone. If we do not care about that, why not abolish all timezones while we are at it?
  - jgwil2 6y ago
    It is just a name. No one has cared about solar noon since the 19th century, when every town set their own clock. The point of timezones is for everyone to work from the same reference with respect to train schedules, originally, and now flights, phone calls, bank hours, etc.
  - rcoveson 6y ago
    And daylight time is that plus one hour. They're both standardized somehow or other, that's not the point. The error bars on that relationship with the noonday sun are large enough that neither daylight time nor standard time actually fit that definition anyway. Time zones cover an hour-wide area, and orbital mechanics of the Earth and Sun cause noon to drift a lot throughout the year. Both are workable, but one is more familiar, and that's daylight time.
skywhopper 6y ago
If it’s always daylight saving time, then that is the standard time. We use daylight saving time 2/3 of the year already. Staying on DST is the least disruptive option.
pkulak 6y ago
It's more politically viable to give people an hour after work to shop, even though it's far more healthy to wake up in the sunlight rather than darkness, and it's asinine to make children walk to school in the dark.
globular-toast 6y ago
Most geeks have at some point been nocturnal, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. We therefore recognise that the clock is just an instrument showing the current approximate position of the sun and nothing else. But normal people sort of, well, worship the clock. The clock tells them when to get up and when to come home. It's kinda lame, but it is what it is.
- moftz 6y ago
  People work together on things during the day and also happen to want to be able to visit stores and businesses around the same time every day. Also people sleep at night because it's easier to sleep in the dark than in the light. It sounds pompous to act like the clock is some sort of religious ritual and how anyone that wakes up in the morning to go to a 9-5 job is just a sheep. Most people like being awake when other people are awake so every one can do things together. Just like how NTP helps synchronize devices across the internet, regular clocks help people do the same.
echelon 6y ago
I don't want it to be dark when I finish work. DST gives us daylight to enjoy at the end of the day. I don't care if it's dark in the morning. I'm not a morning person, and I want the sun reserved for the evening. Restaurants and businesses are going to like this change too.
grzm 6y ago
“Daylight savings time” is a bit of a misnomer as commonly used, particularly in this case. What people generally find frustrating, and what this change is addressing, is the twice-yearly time change. People (and businesses and the like) will still schedule things when it makes sense for them. Whether a meeting is at 9:00 or 10:00 or some other number isn’t the real point.

swimmadude66 6y ago

nice

hallway_monitor 6y ago
4 minutes too slow :(

bearjaws 6y ago

Will be fun to see all the poorly implemented handling of DST in software implode.

orblivion 6y ago
DST dates already changed in 2007. But I guess that's 14 years worth of more bad implementations ready to go. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Change_to_daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Chan...
- pionar 6y ago
  I bought an alarm clock in 2004 that had "automatic" DST changes as a feature. It was apparently implemented with hard-coded dates to change the offset, as when the dates changed in 2005, it changed on the wrong date. Made me late for work one fall day in 2005. I got a new alarm clock soon after.
  - orblivion 6y ago
    Epic "you had one job" story.
chr1 6y ago
There was a similar change in Russia and Armenia several years ago, and nothing fun or spectacular have happened. Only old computers without internet access had required manual update of clock settings.
- zinekeller 6y ago
  Edit: it is indeed Iran, except that it is now fixed relative to the Islamic lunar calendar (so updates can be pushed as soon as Iran declares what is the date corresponding to the Gregorian calendar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Standard_Time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Standard_Time). Nope, it happens about quarterly because no-one can predict the moon and the cloud cover with such precision (I believe it's Iran, but I might be wrong and it might be another Arab country) among other things.

gpm 6y ago

> and for other purposes. sigh

nyghtly 6y ago
Reminds me of the episode from Veep where Jonah tries to pass a bill that abolishes DST. The bill is written by an outside team of analysts funded by a private prison magnate, Sherman Tans. He packs the bill with extras intended to expand the prison population. Jonah accepts the bill because he's an idiot and doesn't like to read. He only got elected because he went negative against the president, a member of his own party. In the end, the bill fails because Jonah flies to close to the sun.
craftyguy 6y ago
The text of the bill hasn't been submitted yet, so we don't know what 'other purposes' is. So in typical 'hacker' 'news' fashion, this has been upvoted based purely on title alone!
quasse 6y ago
Exactly. I was going to write a note to my House representative in support of this bill, but I absolutely will not do that with the text unreleased and "for other purposes" in the title there.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago

Why not make 11 the maximum volume on the amp?

f154hfds 6y ago

Forgive my ignorance - but what's stopping employers/employees/schools from shifting their working hours instead? Doesn't that seem less drastic and extreme (and easier for a government to implement)?

skywhopper 6y ago
Why is that easier? Suddenly at some point in the year your entire schedule shifts by an hour?
- wnoise 6y ago
  Or possibly it shifts half an hour 4 times a year. There's lots of room for experimentation and variability.
johnzim 6y ago
You end up with a situation where say 20% have shifted and 80% haven't. Then over time, like planets falling into a ring of orbits, everyone ends up shifting back because too many other people are on the other schedule. These sorts of things need critical mass to have effect. That said, with all the lockdowns and isolated living, I do wonder if the social conformity effect will be as strong going forward.
ajmurmann 6y ago
I've had the same issue for many years. I like the time still be coupled to the position of the sun and I also prefer earlier sunrises. The issue here is that the individual choice you and I would prefer doesn't exist for parents since their schedule is dictated by schools. Edit: also not all jobs offer that choice. Think things like construction, public transit or hospital jobs
Eridrus 6y ago
Hours are interlinked across society. If you drive your kid to school, you need that to roughly line up with when you go to work. Maybe you don't have this constraint, but your coworker does, so if they were to keep the existing hours, you have some incentive to keep the same hours too, etc.

spullara 6y ago

I can't wait to have DST year round in CA. Standard time is awful.

kibwen 6y ago

Looks like it actually is easier to ask the government to shift the whole country's time zones rather than successfully ask employers to let their employees shift their schedule an hour earlier, which would have the same effect.

arbitrage 6y ago
This has been the case for well over 18 years, now. Congress can agree on literally nothing except futzing with Daylight Savings, so that's what they do to prove they're working in a bipartisanship-like manner. What utter garbage and a laughable excuse for a government.
zonotope 6y ago
Change one law, or negotiate with hundreds of thousands of employers, school boards, day care centers, among other things, simultaneously, in the hopes that they all come to the same decision. Seems easier to me.
- syshum 6y ago
  Directives backed by the threat of violence (i.e law) often are easier, does not make them ethical or right
ironmagma 6y ago
People aren't codebases, a broken refactor manifests itself not as total societal collapse (a "crash") but slow social disease, with people arguing about the cause. To get everyone aligned, we need a law, not just to tell everyone to be flexible with each other.
ajmurmann 6y ago
As mentioned in another comment, not everyone had this choice. Parents' time is bound to the school's schedule. Many jobs inherently don't cover this flexibility. Think construction, health care, public transit, education. It's really a very large percentage of the population, but one that's underrepresented on HN. I have none of these constraints and in fact shifted my schedule by 2 hours without any problem. So it can be hard to see the very different reality and guard rails others have to deal with.

ohyes 6y ago

I'm against this because it will require software changes.

amluto 6y ago
You mean you would need to update your time zone database, just like you already do on a regular basis?
- ohyes 6y ago
  ah, I guess I'm the only one who makes things that are air-gapped and don't take updates on the regular. It's hard being in my own little bubble.
  - nemetroid 6y ago
    Air-gapped and automatically handles DST correctly seems like a small niche to me, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
    - ohyes 6y ago
      Anything safety critical with strict reporting requirements (clock must be correct so logs are accurate). Honestly, most things that need to be air-gapped also need to have correct clocks. Most other things also need to have correct clocks / time, but it is easier to use available stuff in that situation. industrial control systems, medical devices, transportation systems, important, critical infrastructure stuff.
      - amluto 6y ago
        Okay, I have to ask: shouldn’t a system like this use TAI or at least UTC? If you are air gapped and really need accurate time, you at least have to deal with leap seconds. Even if a one-second error doesn’t bother you, there’s an entire two-hour interval when DST ends in which the local time is ambiguous. Or do these systems try to do the right thing by distinguishing 2:30 AM PST from 2:30 AM PDT?

clajiness 6y ago

The government can't even call it what it is; Daylight saving time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time

mcv 6y ago
Maybe it's the time when you can save up some daylight for a rainy day. Those are your daylight savings.
bpicolo 6y ago
> , also daylight savings time I've never once heard the former colloquially

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Didn’t know how much more annoying day light savings could be until I had small children in the house. You spend so much time trying to schedule bedtime for everyone’s sanity. Having an hour screw up the schedule because they aren’t tired or over sleepy is very annoying (for about a week).

randlet 6y ago
Taper bedtimes 10 minutes at a time over a week!
- abcc8 6y ago
  While tapering bedtime is sometimes possible (not when they can read the clocks!), you can't taper when they wake up quite as easily. I would expect that this suggestion cannot be easily implemented by many families.
- hpoe 6y ago
  Parent of small children, you can certainly try that. It turns out though that small children don't care when you put them to bed they aren't going to sleep until they are tired, and they'll spend the extra time coming out of their room, screaming, fighting, or kicking their door.
- jp42 6y ago
  What I learned from my toddler is - they do what they want to do. It takes couple of weeks of consistent efforts to change his behavior. Sadly one week is not enough.
lovecg 6y ago
Before kids, moving clocks back meant an extra hour of sleep. After kids, everyone still wakes up on time.

gojomo 6y ago

A good 1st step, then abolish US time zones. Works for China & India! (While all the normies are groggy, it should then be easy to slip a change to nationwide UTC in as the coup de grace.)

globular-toast 6y ago
Surely you mean TAI? To hell with leap seconds.
chundicus 6y ago
I didn't know they didn't have time zones. Are people there just used to the fact 8am will look very different depending on which region your in?
- jedberg 6y ago
  Most of the population outside of the natural time zone are small rural villages so they just ignore the official time. There is a major city far in the west, and they use two time zones simultaneously. It's a contentious issue, because which time zone you use is basically race-based. Han Chinese use Bejing time, and Uighurs use the local zone.
  - chundicus 6y ago
    Wow, that's pretty interesting.
kibwen 6y ago
That only works in China because 1) authoritarianism, and 2) because China's population is heavily concentrated in the west, where the time zone is natural. The US population is much more evenly split between the east and west, so you'd end up with a much more discontented population on average. You could maybe get away with two US timezones, at best. Four (in the lower 48) is already kind of stretching it; swathes of New England are discussing breaking off into a fifth.
- 6y ago

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

This is the wrong direction, we should be on standard time year round! Daylight saving time gives you more daylight during the hours people are awake, but only because it forces everyone to wake up earlier! We already have major issues with e.g. making teenagers wake up earlier than most of their bodies are tuned for at that age. How much worse is it going to be if they have to get up an hour earlier in the winter? (Remember: what our bodies consider "early" is dependent on when the sun rises, and not the numbers we put on our clocks.) And just to top it off, you'll be forcing a lot of kids to walk to school in the dark. --- Edit: To be clear, it's not just children! On weekends and holidays when people don't have to work, how much of the population do you think wakes up right when the sun rises, in order to maximize their daylight? I certainly don't have any data on this, but I would guess a large majority take the opportunity to sleep in. Having extra daylight seems really nice at first, and it is. Unfortunately, shifting clocks doesn't actually create more sun, it just creates a societal mandate. My view is that we already start our workdays too early, particularly when you take commute times into account.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Even with daylight savings time they're still getting up "earlier than their bodies are tuned for" And considering that they'd be getting hundreds of hours more daylight after their working day for the entirety of their adult lives it seems like a more than fair trade. Teenagers are far more resilient than young kids when it comes to this kind of thing. Extending the portion of the year that parents can let younger kids recreate outdoors in daylight has far more societal benefit than whether a teenager is 10% more irritable. The teenager problem could also be solved by letting them go to school on their own and decoupling their school timing from adults work schedules.
- runarberg 6y ago
  > Extending the portion of the year that parents can let younger kids recreate outdoors in daylight has far more societal benefit. Are you sure? Have you done the research? They had this discussion in Iceland recently and I think they found this point inconclusive. I think health officials still favored moving out of permanent DST into permanent standard because they know the health benefits of good sleeping, and they know that many children are sleep deprived.

baxter001 6y ago

Almost a yearly tradition: https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22source%22:%22legislation%22,%22search%22:%22daylight%20savings%20time%22}&searchResultViewType=expanded https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22source%22:%22legislati...

LaserPineapple 6y ago
So regular, you could set your clocks to it...
- mmcconnell1618 6y ago
  Looking at the number of bills introduced right at the start of the new congress I'm under the impression that many of these are introduced only so the congressperson can go back and say "I introduced a bill to do ____" and brag about it. https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7B%22source%22%3A%22legislation%22%2C%22congress%22%3A%22117%22%7D&pageSize=100&page=1 https://www.congress.gov/search?q=%7B%22source%22%3A%22legis... It would be interesting to data mine these and see how effective certain legislators are at just introducing bills compared to actually getting them passed.
  - licyeus 6y ago
    Govtrack tracks this and compiles report cards that (mostly) reveal what you're looking for, e.g., its reports on Bills Introduced, Bills Out of Committee, and Laws Enacted [1]. The 2020 report cards should come out sometime this month. 1 - https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2019/house https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/report-cards/2019/h...
koheripbal 6y ago
This is why we should remove any "legislation introduced" posts - as a blanket rule. It might as well say "so and so said...". It's worthless news.
- dang 6y ago

_qulr 6y ago

Fiddling with the clocks while Rome burns.

vhodges 6y ago

My .02... My body seems to be on Summer time anyways (ie in the winter I am up at 4am instead of 5am) and crashing at 7:30-8:00pm (instead of 9pm) so I prefer permanent DST (which BC, WA, OR and CA have all agreed to in principle).

oblio 6y ago

Meanwhile, in the EU: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parliament-votes-to-scrap-daylight-saving-time-from-2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/26/european-parli...

disown 6y ago

Just pick one and stick to it. Enough with the flipping back and forth already.

hiimtroymclure 6y ago

unpopular opinion - I like daylight savings. its the closest thing I have to 'seasons' in my state.

craftyguy 6y ago
> unpopular opinion - I like daylight savings. lol. the title is literally about making DST permanent. What's 'unpopular' about that?
- hiimtroymclure 6y ago
  because just about every single person in the comments is bashing this?
eplanit 6y ago
IMHO: Positive-minded, generally happy people like DST, where negative, possibly depressed people like the idea of year-round ST.
spacemanmatt 6y ago
Sounds like you could be a Texan. ;)

cafard 6y ago

In the winter of 1973-1974, after the oil shock, the government declared winter-time DST. I did not care for it. I was carpooling to school with up to five other persons, arriving at campus when it was just light at 8 am. Some portion of Congress suffers from the superstition that DST saves energy. It does not appear that there is a cure for this.

Mountain_Skies 6y ago
It's a way for politicians to look like they're doing something while shifting the burden of dealing with the consequences of the time shift off onto everyone else.

amir734jj 6y ago

Daylight saving should be eliminated for good! it causes more hassle instead of doing good. I work at a large financial company and we have tons of jobs and data-sources that need to run in sync. Everyone at my department is on stand-by when there is a day light saving. I get PTSD thinking about it.

fareesh 6y ago

If this were to happen, how many systems are out there in the wild that have some quirky implementation of handling DST which will result in weird behavior? I remember seeing the built-in tick on CircleMUD go crazy if you were online at midnight during the switch.

asciimov 6y ago

I really don't care which time they pick as long as we pick one and stick to it.

bjt2n3904 6y ago

Come senators, congressmen Please heed the call! For the times, they are a changin'!

bjt2n3904 6y ago
I was very proud of this pun :(

Balgair 6y ago

Edit: I was wrong! My apologies!

moonka 6y ago
>Just because the Federal Gov of the US does this does not mean that the states have to as well. States can choose to stay on Standard, or go back and forth, but currently they can't choose to stay on DST. I think WA, OR, and CA have all passed legislation that would move them over once the feds allow it.
kevinpet 6y ago
Arizona doesn't swing between anything. They are on MST. It happens that MST and PDT are the same offset from UTC, but the middle letter means something.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Just because the Federal Gov of the US does this does not mean that the states have to as well. Yes it does: the Federal government currently allows states to choose between permanent Standard Time and Standard/Daylight switch at the point specified in federal law, it also dictates the timezones in the US and their boundaries. So, e.g., California has a choice between permanent PST and PST/PDT switches (it has chosen the latter), and Arizona between permanent MST and MST/MDT switches (they’ve chosen the former). If the feds get rid of the option for DST switching and the option to chose permanent standard time in favor of mandating permanent daylight time with no other options, then, yes, the states have to do it. Now, if they replace the daylight switch option with a permanent daylight option, that would be a different story. And if they just added a permanent daylight option, that would be an even more different story. And the text isn’t up for HR 69. But I suspect its straight “permanent DST is the only option” rule.

echelon 6y ago

Congress is finally doing something amazing! Summertime daylight hours are so much more enjoyable than the winter doldrums. Nobody cares where the sun is in the sky at noon. That was always location dependent anyway. This pushes us out of the farming era and into one where we care about workers' and businesses' qualify of life. Amazing job, Congress! Pass it!

toast0 6y ago
I assume this is sarcasm, but I can't really tell. Unless you're equatorial, there's simply more daylight in the summer, regardless of where it shows up on the clock face. Moving the meager sunlight of the winter around won't make it more abundant, and won't make it shine through the clouds that may appear more often in the winter, depending on your climate.
- echelon 6y ago
  > Moving the meager sunlight of the winter around won't make it more abundant It'll mean I don't sleep through an hour of valuable sunlight, and I suspect more people wake up after sunrise than before it.

sampo 6y ago

Small link dump to some research. They compare people living near the western and eastern borders of their timezones. All results point to same direction: Living near the western border of your timezone correlates with more health problems. Permanent daylight saving time would increase these health problems. It is the wrong way to go. Permanent daylight saving time maybe appeals to intuition, but this is empirical research, and it points to the opposite direction. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21231877 http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/cebp/26/8/1306.full.pdf https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0167629618309718 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01676... Same: https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.upload.pdf https://www.econ.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/WP%2017-009.up... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29636342 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incidence_of_winter_depression_varies_within_time_zone https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276058441_The_incid...

jschulenklopper 6y ago
Here’s another one, with a similar conclusion: https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780

zentiggr 6y ago

Let's just skip the standard/DST debate entirely... <sarcasm>Sunrise is 0800, for each time zone. The daily clock runs from there until next sunrise, when it resets to 0800 from whatever time it reached. Now no one has a consistent local time, and we'll run on UTC +-x if the precise time is needed, and on local sunrise clocks for everyday scheduling and time telling. There's a consistent amount of snlight in the morning so people can choose when to get up relative to sunrise, and SAD people / evening sun people get what they want when there actually IS sun to be had. </sarcasm>

xyst 6y ago

Slight off topic - How do you all get your representatives to support or not support specific bills in the house and senate? Is e-mailing and calling them enough?

runarberg 6y ago

I really think that the ruling class should think about this carefully before moving on with this. It is a very popular issue, and I’m sure they would gain a lot of political capital by moving this through, as many people support this. However they need to do this carefully. There are some health questions unanswered. And some research is needed before they do this. Sleep is important and sleep deprivation is a thing that affects some portion of the working class, and some portion of school children. Before they take this step, they should know the effect this would have on the sleep behavior of this population. If moving to a permanent DST would further disrupt the sleep cycle of this population, the result could be dangerous. I really hope that the ruling class consults public health experts, and asks for research and goes with their recommendation which is based on that research rather then simply going by what people think they want. Sleep is to important to be messed with and disrupted because of a rushed—but popular—decision.

jgwil2 6y ago
We already know that changing the clocks twice a year leads to sleep deprivation for everyone - more car accidents, more heart attacks, etc. The whole point is to stop the twice yearly disruption of our sleep.
- runarberg 6y ago
  What public health experts need to find out then is whether moving to permanent DST is the right call then, as opposed to moving to permanent standard time. I have a hunch that standard is a better choice for most people’s health.
  - WorldMaker 6y ago
    The US spends 2/3rds of a year in DST rather than Standard Time, so that would possibly imply there is no health difference or the health difference is actually weighted towards DST at this point. Also, a problem with hour-wide timezones is that DST is closer to what "standard time" is supposed to be (when solar noon and observed noon most closely match) naturally on the western edges of the timezones. So any arguments over whether DST or Standard is "healthier" also likely have to take into account how much the population is weighted to one edge or the other.

benlivengood 6y ago

About the only thing that people truly synchronize on is that lunch is around noon, but practically there's an hour of flexibility on when people actually eat. When is the official time for work to start or end? Maybe 7, 8, or 9? Office work seems to end around 5 or 6. School starts sometime between 6 and 10 AM depending on grade and locale. My point is that there already is no standard wake/sleep schedule. Noon may be the tightest bound on when people all want to be doing the same thing, but importantly that happens after everyone is already awake so picking DST or ST is arbitrary. People who want sunset or sunrise to occur earlier or later in the day have a conflict coordinating with other people in their life, not a problem with official timezones. Maybe pick your job and school district based on start times instead. I'm happy to jump on the first bandwagon that gets rid of seasonal changes to timezones.

kdtop 6y ago

Well, there goes my garden. Messing with the hours of sunlight screws the plant's growth all up... :-\

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

frankus 6y ago

The whole reason we have time zones is so that midday (12:00) happens somewhat close to the middle of the day, and that midnight happens somewhat close to the middle of the night. I'm not sure what shifting everyone's timezone east accomplishes. My hunch is we'll all adapt by shifting activities/business hours/school hours and then instead of griping that "It's only X o'clock and the sun is already setting" we'll be griping that "It's only X+1 o'clock and the sun is already setting" and people will start proposing "permanent daylight + 1" time.

rkuykendall-com 6y ago
Think of this less as shifting one direction or another, and more as discontinuing the endless bi-annual shifting. It just so happens that by discontinuing it, we have to pick a side, and people seem to prefer this one.
- frankus 6y ago
  Of course. I should have made it clear that I'm slightly in favor of a switch to permanent standard time (with liberal application of things like winter and summer hours for businesses and schools), but would prefer the current system to permanent daylight time. I think the preference for permanent standard time, while perhaps real, is shortsighted. The fact that in winter the days seem too short will continue to exist forever, and the yearly switch to standard time simply rubs our noses in this fact. There's also an element of Chesterson's Fence, where few people alive today are familiar with the problems that DST was invented to solve (most areas that avoid switching seem to be at moderate latitudes). The flaws of the current system—and the problems that it leaves unsolved—are well-known and tangible, whereas the flaws and shortcomings of the proposed system are unknown and abstract. So of course changing it looks superficially appealing. Applying this principle to political systems is left as an exercise to the reader.

annoyingnoob 6y ago

I don't really care which way we go permanently, be we should stop flipping the clocks twice a year.

jschulenklopper 6y ago

https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780 “Although chronic effects of remaining in daylight saving time year-round have not been well studied, daylight saving time is less aligned with human circadian biology—which, due to the impacts of the delayed natural light/dark cycle on human activity, could result in circadian misalignment, which has been associated in some studies with increased cardiovascular disease risk, metabolic syndrome and other health risks. It is, therefore, the position of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine that these seasonal time changes should be abolished in favor of a fixed, national, year-round standard time.”

jschulenklopper 6y ago

They tried that in Russia (!)... and quickly reverted it. “On Tuesday, July 1, 2014, the Russian State Duma voted to end the widely unpopular permanent "summer time" in Russia. President Vladimir Putin signed the law on July 22, 2014.” https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/russia-abandons-permanent-summer-time.html https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/russia-abandons-perman...

spacemanmatt 6y ago

Daylight changes. Shall we change the time that everything happens by altering the schedule or the time scale?

a3n 6y ago

"But what about the cows!" https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cows+milk+daylight+saving+time&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cows+milk+daylight+saving+time&t=f...

briznian 6y ago

I say split the difference and permanently set the time forward 30 minutes. Then never change it again.