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It's not an Iranian employee. That's just someone visiting Iran and login to their GitHub account. GitHub reaction is outrageously disproportionate. They shoul

by brmgb 6y ago

It's not an Iranian employee. That's just someone visiting Iran and login to their GitHub account. GitHub reaction is outrageously disproportionate. They should just prevent login from Iran. They had no basis for blocking a legitimate customer in Europe based on this.

cies 6y ago
Funny how GH gets shit for what the US has as laws. I'd focus my outrage on the law, the lawmaker, and those who uphold it. GH is merely trying to go by the book/ avoid penalties, as expected.
- matsemann 6y ago
  A single person has no way of influencing this. Twisting Github's and others' arms is a great proxy. If they get flak for their handling of this, they can go argue with law makers.
  - imposterr 6y ago
    Does that not just speak to a larger problem with the current political system that twisting the arm of a large company is the only way to affect change?
    - jfrunyon 6y ago
      Does that mean that we shouldn't address any of the smaller problems?
- brmgb 6y ago
  The US embargo prevents doing business with Iran. Providing service in Iran would be a violation of the embargo. Blocking a whole European company not conducting business with Iran because one of its employee tried to login while there is not respecting the embargo, it's just overreach. GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts.
  - quietbritishjim 6y ago
    > GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts. If GitHub freezes your account, this is obviously serious and can impact your business to a greater or lesser extent depending on what your business does. But the data is not lost, and you'll likely have a copy of at least some of it (the actual repos) and maybe all of it if you were being careful. If Paypal freeze your account then any money in it is simply lost (and your loss is Paypal's gain!). There's no way you could keep a "backup" of that money even if you were being careful. It's completely incomparable.
    - brmgb 6y ago
      > If Paypal freeze your account then any money in it is simply lost (and your loss is Paypal's gain!). While this is completely tangential to the current discussion, I feel compelled to inform you that that's not how it works. When Paypal freeze your account, your account is not deleted, you just can't do anything with it. The money on it obviously remains yours. You just have to convince them that your account should be unfrozen or wait the maximum duration you agreed to in Paypal ToS - 180 days - after which they have to hand it back to you.
  - cies 6y ago
    > GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts. Random? I think the problem with Paypal was that they do not warn or provide reasons for freezing. GH's reasons are clear. > Blocking a whole European company not conducting business with Iran because one of its employee tried to login while there is not respecting the embargo, it's just overreach. Says who? There is a law, the law is unclear and IHMO a bad law. The law is overreach. Blaming GH for shitty US laws is akin to killing the messenger.
    - astura 6y ago
      > I think the problem with Paypal was that they do not warn or provide reasons for freezing Which is par for the course for financial companies.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  Well, it's kinda like the whole "if a misbehaving app crashes the whole OS, whose fault is it? The app's? Or the OS?"
- x3c 6y ago
  Not as per the letter of the law. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/118 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...
  - justin66 6y ago
    It's so peculiar that you - and some guy on twitter, apparently - are quoting a footnote to a FAQ on Treasury's OFAC information page as if that captures the entirety of an American company's obligations under the law. This is really obviously crazy, right? In any other, less political, context involving business law and liability the advice would be "talk to a lawyer."
    - x3c 6y ago
      I doubt GitHub or any org is changing their SOP based on my comment. But the mere existence of a scenario equivalent to the one in question in the operating guidelines suggest there is room fur sanity to prevail in the interpretation of the law.
arghwhat 6y ago
> ... one employee opened his laptop while visiting [h]is parents in Iran. I suppose this implies that the employee is Iranian. The U.S. sanctions are pretty aggressive, and I don't think preventing login from Iran is anywhere near enough to comply. The law is the problem here.
- esolyt 6y ago
  It implies he has parents in Iran. He could be a US citizen or an Iranian citizen. Or both. Or neither.
- dustinmoris 6y ago
  > I suppose this implies that the employee is Iranian Sorry what??? I have family in India, but not because I'm Indian, I just have family there. I have family in Poland, not because I am Polish (well I am kind of, but not on paper). I have family in the UK, but I'm not British. This is 2021, not Christopher Columbus times.
  - arghwhat 6y ago
    You seem rather outraged by the sensible assumption that parents living in Iran are probably Iranian, and that a person with two Iranian parents is probably also Iranian. In 2021, people are still directly related to their parents, and the majority of citizens in most countries is indeed the local population. They may of course have obtained American citizenship now, but we're talking in the context of crazy US sanctions on Iran here, which I think work on connection to Iran. I don't think there should be any consequence to being Iranian, but I don't have a say in American politics.
    - CaptArmchair 6y ago
      Such presumptions have, historically, led to such actions as the wholesale internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. This included 2nd and 3rd generations born in America, who never had left America. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... So, no, it's not merely a "sensible" assumption. It's an assumption that carries collective trauma and negative connotations for many who's ancestors have experienced painful discrimination because of their ancestry. > I don't think there should be any consequence to being Iranian, but I don't have a say in American politics. No, you don't. But you do have a voice to ask critical and nuanced questions out loudly.

by brmgb 6y ago

cies 6y ago

Funny how GH gets shit for what the US has as laws. I'd focus my outrage on the law, the lawmaker, and those who uphold it. GH is merely trying to go by the book/ avoid penalties, as expected.

matsemann 6y ago
A single person has no way of influencing this. Twisting Github's and others' arms is a great proxy. If they get flak for their handling of this, they can go argue with law makers.
- imposterr 6y ago
  Does that not just speak to a larger problem with the current political system that twisting the arm of a large company is the only way to affect change?
  - jfrunyon 6y ago
    Does that mean that we shouldn't address any of the smaller problems?
brmgb 6y ago
The US embargo prevents doing business with Iran. Providing service in Iran would be a violation of the embargo. Blocking a whole European company not conducting business with Iran because one of its employee tried to login while there is not respecting the embargo, it's just overreach. GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts.
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  > GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts. If GitHub freezes your account, this is obviously serious and can impact your business to a greater or lesser extent depending on what your business does. But the data is not lost, and you'll likely have a copy of at least some of it (the actual repos) and maybe all of it if you were being careful. If Paypal freeze your account then any money in it is simply lost (and your loss is Paypal's gain!). There's no way you could keep a "backup" of that money even if you were being careful. It's completely incomparable.
  - brmgb 6y ago
    > If Paypal freeze your account then any money in it is simply lost (and your loss is Paypal's gain!). While this is completely tangential to the current discussion, I feel compelled to inform you that that's not how it works. When Paypal freeze your account, your account is not deleted, you just can't do anything with it. The money on it obviously remains yours. You just have to convince them that your account should be unfrozen or wait the maximum duration you agreed to in Paypal ToS - 180 days - after which they have to hand it back to you.
- cies 6y ago
  > GitHub should get flak for that in the same way Paypal regularly get flak for randomly freezing accounts. Random? I think the problem with Paypal was that they do not warn or provide reasons for freezing. GH's reasons are clear. > Blocking a whole European company not conducting business with Iran because one of its employee tried to login while there is not respecting the embargo, it's just overreach. Says who? There is a law, the law is unclear and IHMO a bad law. The law is overreach. Blaming GH for shitty US laws is akin to killing the messenger.
  - astura 6y ago
    > I think the problem with Paypal was that they do not warn or provide reasons for freezing Which is par for the course for financial companies.
tpoacher 6y ago
Well, it's kinda like the whole "if a misbehaving app crashes the whole OS, whose fault is it? The app's? Or the OS?"
x3c 6y ago
Not as per the letter of the law. https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/faqs/118 https://home.treasury.gov/policy-issues/financial-sanctions/...
- justin66 6y ago
  It's so peculiar that you - and some guy on twitter, apparently - are quoting a footnote to a FAQ on Treasury's OFAC information page as if that captures the entirety of an American company's obligations under the law. This is really obviously crazy, right? In any other, less political, context involving business law and liability the advice would be "talk to a lawyer."
  - x3c 6y ago
    I doubt GitHub or any org is changing their SOP based on my comment. But the mere existence of a scenario equivalent to the one in question in the operating guidelines suggest there is room fur sanity to prevail in the interpretation of the law.

arghwhat 6y ago

> ... one employee opened his laptop while visiting [h]is parents in Iran. I suppose this implies that the employee is Iranian. The U.S. sanctions are pretty aggressive, and I don't think preventing login from Iran is anywhere near enough to comply. The law is the problem here.

esolyt 6y ago
It implies he has parents in Iran. He could be a US citizen or an Iranian citizen. Or both. Or neither.
dustinmoris 6y ago
> I suppose this implies that the employee is Iranian Sorry what??? I have family in India, but not because I'm Indian, I just have family there. I have family in Poland, not because I am Polish (well I am kind of, but not on paper). I have family in the UK, but I'm not British. This is 2021, not Christopher Columbus times.
- arghwhat 6y ago
  You seem rather outraged by the sensible assumption that parents living in Iran are probably Iranian, and that a person with two Iranian parents is probably also Iranian. In 2021, people are still directly related to their parents, and the majority of citizens in most countries is indeed the local population. They may of course have obtained American citizenship now, but we're talking in the context of crazy US sanctions on Iran here, which I think work on connection to Iran. I don't think there should be any consequence to being Iranian, but I don't have a say in American politics.
  - CaptArmchair 6y ago
    Such presumptions have, historically, led to such actions as the wholesale internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. This included 2nd and 3rd generations born in America, who never had left America. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_America... So, no, it's not merely a "sensible" assumption. It's an assumption that carries collective trauma and negative connotations for many who's ancestors have experienced painful discrimination because of their ancestry. > I don't think there should be any consequence to being Iranian, but I don't have a say in American politics. No, you don't. But you do have a voice to ask critical and nuanced questions out loudly.