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This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system becau

This of course has led to a lot of 'I told you so!' and finger-wagging that voters were too stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to have the initiative system because they're too easily manipulated. Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Had Prod 22 not passed, jobs would've been lost in other areas. The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. The much larger majority of part-time gig workers would've lost their side job. Overall, in the end Prop 22 was a wash. We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education. There is no free lunch.

ndespres 6y ago
>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?
- julienb_sea 6y ago
  No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford the rates of for example taxis. Living wage is a mutable concept and is determined in large part by where you live and how many children you have. Wages for a job are based on a fair market rate within reasonable bounds, like minimum wage. Raising minimum wage too high has adverse effects on job availability.
  - ndespres 6y ago
    This is a story about a grocery store chain replacing their own employees who perform a job at the company, with "independent contractors" from a 3rd-party service. I'm not sure what case you're trying to make, whose dignity are you saying is violated? Who said anything about taxis? Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage?
    - isoskeles 6y ago
      > Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage? Well, you said: > why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability? How do you propose that a person doing a "job" earn a "living wage" without making changes to the minimum wage? I sense much more of an argumentative tone to your comments than the person you're replying to, by the way.
      - ndespres 6y ago
        As others have said in this thread and in many other places, the minimum wage does not really correspond to the wage required to live a comfortable and dignified life. It is merely the least amount of money an employer can pay an employee without it being illegal, and has very little to do with the cost of living. If I seem argumentative, it is because I am exasperated with the gymnastics that people will do in order to justify the conscription of more and more people into precarious existences under a gig economy, which largely benefits people at the top of the economic ladder at the expense of those at the bottom.
        s1artibartfast 6y ago
        If you are for a comfortable living wage, how do you propose it is ensured without a minimum wage at some, to be specified, level?
    - julienb_sea 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- blackrock 6y ago
  Because. Capitalism.
- amluto 6y ago
  Perhaps we could decouple benefits from employment so that 8 hours of gig work per day would actually add up to roughly the same thing as 8 hours per day of employment.
  - foogazi 6y ago
    if we are serious about benefits for everyone then make it available to everyone: healthcare, retirement options, sick days, unemployment remove the tax benefits around employer health plans, or exclusivity of 401k plans Then it doesn’t matter if you have a hotdog cart, shine shoes or are a white collar worker.
    - amluto 6y ago
      Decoupling health care from employment doesn’t actually require making it universal. Private individual insurance would also work. (I’m not advocating for this — I’m just pointing out that private insurance does not require employment, and the US could easily get rid of the incentives for employers to provide insurance.)
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  We paper over the fact that stocks and real estate are predominantly appreciating due to the low interest rate environment. It's the only way to keep the party (and economic growth) going. I concur. It's rich to me that, for some problems, papering over is a completely legitimate approach to 'solving' the problem, but when the same approach is suggested in a different context, it is immediately dismissed.
- zajio1am 6y ago
  > why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage Living wage based on locally inflated housing prices is just fundamentally broken concept. It is just ideological cover for wealth transfer from productive economy to landlords (by focusing on 'living wage' based on market housing costs and not on 'affordable rents' based on market wages). If there is an excess of workers and a shortage of housing, one cannot determine apriori where is a proper balance between 'living wages' and 'affordable rents', it is necessary to let market find the balance.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Ok, why can't we just say housing isn't a market, it's priced primarily for livibility and less for some concept of quality. Then living wage doesn't need to be opened to inflated housing markets.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      Because there is an existing large class of people (2 in 3 Americans) who have acted based on the idea that housing is a market and have bought a home on that basis. They have no interest in altering the status quo. To add to that, you can't choose what housing is priced by unless you have government price controls and that is a cure that's worse than the disease.
      - mullingitover 6y ago
        Singapore has some pretty nice public housing. If there was a government policy that any time median rents climb above X, the state will procure land and build housing until it drops below that number again, it might be more workable than the blunt instrument of price caps.
        renewiltord 6y ago
        I am a huge fan of public housing, not least because of the fact that I think that in the absence of a Land Value Tax, the state owning a large amount of land in high-growth regions is important for the public to diminish the impact of rent-seeking. However, the practice of this is that these governments are highly corrupt, and usually conspire to use the mechanism of public housing as primarily a means to enrich themselves through the proxy of their construction contractors. Look no farther than Dianne Feinstein and Tutor Perini.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  Because the real economic value of those jobs is less than a "living wage." A delivery driver is not a skilled job. I know, I delivered pizza when I was in college. And that was before mobile phones or navigation apps so drivers actually had to learn their way around their delivery area. If you have a drivers license and a car you can be a delivery driver. That's not a very high bar. So those jobs don't pay very much.
gnicholas 6y ago
> Had Prod 22 passed, jobs would've been lost in other areas. The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. You mean “Had Prop 22 failed”?
- mullingitover 6y ago
  Indeed I did, fixed.
Spooky23 6y ago
Yes, it was clearly unethical to rob these employees of the freedom of being piecework contractors. Only through pulling bootstraps and making lemonade from lemons will these uneducated wretches be able to bask in the sunshine of freedom. Back in the glory days of Victorian England you could flip a boy a farthing for grocery delivery... I for one and pleased the make these opportunities available.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  As entertaining as it must be to you to write in this style, it is quite annoying to read. Clearly GP was saying "we had to choose between a few well-paid jobs with many unable to access them or many low-paid jobs; it's a trade-off". It's obvious that that statement is intended to consider everyone's well being, not just some idle nobility as you imply.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    Maybe that what it feels like for a well compensated tech worker. The baseline assumption of the argument is that you are entitled to some minion fetching your stuff at a price low enough that not even the meager protections afforded a Walmart employee apply. Instead you have contractors working for a platform that steals tips. Gross. Sorry my comment was awkward to read.
takeda 6y ago
The law that prop 22 is overriding was patching loopholes with employment law. Where companies exploited employees by making them independent contractors so they don't have to provide benefits. The law in question (AB5) essentially banned hiring employees as independent contractors if they were performing a primary function of the business. While I didn't support prop 22, and still think it is bad that it passed (and no, voters are dumb and did not know what they were voting for), I think this is totally unrelated to Prop 22 or AB5. Most likely after many drivers got sick and became unavailable for weeks due to covid, Vons decided to outsource delivery.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Prop. 22 didn't restore the pre-AB5 legal status quo, which was set by the 2018 Dynamex decision which AB5 largely codified and created some exemptions from. > The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. The much larger majority of part-time gig workers would've lost their side job. No, they wouldn't. The Dynamex/AB5 would require some workers that under Prop 22 are contractors to be regular employees, but it would not require them to be full-time employees. This was among the very many bits of misinformation spread to sell Prop 22.
- Jommi 6y ago
  AB5 should definitely not be regarded as the "status quo" at any point. It was a terrible terrible, which was evidenced by the 50+ amendments it has since received. Full-time or not has no distinction in this argument. You are nitpicking.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
bsder 6y ago
> Overall, in the end Prop 22 was a wash. Really? We've got employees with benefits and healthcare who just got their healthcare yanked out from under them in the middle of a pandemic. That looks like a pretty big net loss to me.

ndespres 6y ago

>>"We can't paper over our lack of viable careers by creating low-skilled jobs that pay the same as jobs requiring a college education." Well, why can't we? If we are saying that these types of jobs need to exist, why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability?

julienb_sea 6y ago
No one is denying that independent contractors deserve dignity and stability. Imposing a forced employment framework violates the dignity of non-full time contractors who want a side income to supplement their normal job. This discussion also should account for the benefit to society of having safe and low cost transportation and delivery options, which raises the dignity of many people who otherwise could not afford the rates of for example taxis. Living wage is a mutable concept and is determined in large part by where you live and how many children you have. Wages for a job are based on a fair market rate within reasonable bounds, like minimum wage. Raising minimum wage too high has adverse effects on job availability.
- ndespres 6y ago
  This is a story about a grocery store chain replacing their own employees who perform a job at the company, with "independent contractors" from a 3rd-party service. I'm not sure what case you're trying to make, whose dignity are you saying is violated? Who said anything about taxis? Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage?
  - isoskeles 6y ago
    > Why are you arguing to me against raising minimum wage, when all I said was that people deserve a living wage? Well, you said: > why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage and deserve dignity and stability? How do you propose that a person doing a "job" earn a "living wage" without making changes to the minimum wage? I sense much more of an argumentative tone to your comments than the person you're replying to, by the way.
    - ndespres 6y ago
      As others have said in this thread and in many other places, the minimum wage does not really correspond to the wage required to live a comfortable and dignified life. It is merely the least amount of money an employer can pay an employee without it being illegal, and has very little to do with the cost of living. If I seem argumentative, it is because I am exasperated with the gymnastics that people will do in order to justify the conscription of more and more people into precarious existences under a gig economy, which largely benefits people at the top of the economic ladder at the expense of those at the bottom.
      - s1artibartfast 6y ago
        If you are for a comfortable living wage, how do you propose it is ensured without a minimum wage at some, to be specified, level?
  - julienb_sea 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
blackrock 6y ago
Because. Capitalism.
amluto 6y ago
Perhaps we could decouple benefits from employment so that 8 hours of gig work per day would actually add up to roughly the same thing as 8 hours per day of employment.
- foogazi 6y ago
  if we are serious about benefits for everyone then make it available to everyone: healthcare, retirement options, sick days, unemployment remove the tax benefits around employer health plans, or exclusivity of 401k plans Then it doesn’t matter if you have a hotdog cart, shine shoes or are a white collar worker.
  - amluto 6y ago
    Decoupling health care from employment doesn’t actually require making it universal. Private individual insurance would also work. (I’m not advocating for this — I’m just pointing out that private insurance does not require employment, and the US could easily get rid of the incentives for employers to provide insurance.)
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
We paper over the fact that stocks and real estate are predominantly appreciating due to the low interest rate environment. It's the only way to keep the party (and economic growth) going. I concur. It's rich to me that, for some problems, papering over is a completely legitimate approach to 'solving' the problem, but when the same approach is suggested in a different context, it is immediately dismissed.
zajio1am 6y ago
> why can we not agree that the people who do the job deserve to be compensated with a living wage Living wage based on locally inflated housing prices is just fundamentally broken concept. It is just ideological cover for wealth transfer from productive economy to landlords (by focusing on 'living wage' based on market housing costs and not on 'affordable rents' based on market wages). If there is an excess of workers and a shortage of housing, one cannot determine apriori where is a proper balance between 'living wages' and 'affordable rents', it is necessary to let market find the balance.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Ok, why can't we just say housing isn't a market, it's priced primarily for livibility and less for some concept of quality. Then living wage doesn't need to be opened to inflated housing markets.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    Because there is an existing large class of people (2 in 3 Americans) who have acted based on the idea that housing is a market and have bought a home on that basis. They have no interest in altering the status quo. To add to that, you can't choose what housing is priced by unless you have government price controls and that is a cure that's worse than the disease.
    - mullingitover 6y ago
      Singapore has some pretty nice public housing. If there was a government policy that any time median rents climb above X, the state will procure land and build housing until it drops below that number again, it might be more workable than the blunt instrument of price caps.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        I am a huge fan of public housing, not least because of the fact that I think that in the absence of a Land Value Tax, the state owning a large amount of land in high-growth regions is important for the public to diminish the impact of rent-seeking. However, the practice of this is that these governments are highly corrupt, and usually conspire to use the mechanism of public housing as primarily a means to enrich themselves through the proxy of their construction contractors. Look no farther than Dianne Feinstein and Tutor Perini.
throwaway201103 6y ago
Because the real economic value of those jobs is less than a "living wage." A delivery driver is not a skilled job. I know, I delivered pizza when I was in college. And that was before mobile phones or navigation apps so drivers actually had to learn their way around their delivery area. If you have a drivers license and a car you can be a delivery driver. That's not a very high bar. So those jobs don't pay very much.

gnicholas 6y ago

> Had Prod 22 passed, jobs would've been lost in other areas. The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. You mean “Had Prop 22 failed”?

mullingitover 6y ago
Indeed I did, fixed.

Spooky23 6y ago

Yes, it was clearly unethical to rob these employees of the freedom of being piecework contractors. Only through pulling bootstraps and making lemonade from lemons will these uneducated wretches be able to bask in the sunshine of freedom. Back in the glory days of Victorian England you could flip a boy a farthing for grocery delivery... I for one and pleased the make these opportunities available.

renewiltord 6y ago
As entertaining as it must be to you to write in this style, it is quite annoying to read. Clearly GP was saying "we had to choose between a few well-paid jobs with many unable to access them or many low-paid jobs; it's a trade-off". It's obvious that that statement is intended to consider everyone's well being, not just some idle nobility as you imply.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  Maybe that what it feels like for a well compensated tech worker. The baseline assumption of the argument is that you are entitled to some minion fetching your stuff at a price low enough that not even the meager protections afforded a Walmart employee apply. Instead you have contractors working for a platform that steals tips. Gross. Sorry my comment was awkward to read.

takeda 6y ago

The law that prop 22 is overriding was patching loopholes with employment law. Where companies exploited employees by making them independent contractors so they don't have to provide benefits. The law in question (AB5) essentially banned hiring employees as independent contractors if they were performing a primary function of the business. While I didn't support prop 22, and still think it is bad that it passed (and no, voters are dumb and did not know what they were voting for), I think this is totally unrelated to Prop 22 or AB5. Most likely after many drivers got sick and became unavailable for weeks due to covid, Vons decided to outsource delivery.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Prop 22 wasn't unclear. The voters knew what they were voting for, which was to keep the status quo with regard to gig economy jobs, and roll back the broad, messy legislation that the state legislature had enacted. Prop. 22 didn't restore the pre-AB5 legal status quo, which was set by the 2018 Dynamex decision which AB5 largely codified and created some exemptions from. > The small fraction of 'full-time' gig workers would've come out ahead. The much larger majority of part-time gig workers would've lost their side job. No, they wouldn't. The Dynamex/AB5 would require some workers that under Prop 22 are contractors to be regular employees, but it would not require them to be full-time employees. This was among the very many bits of misinformation spread to sell Prop 22.

Jommi 6y ago
AB5 should definitely not be regarded as the "status quo" at any point. It was a terrible terrible, which was evidenced by the 50+ amendments it has since received. Full-time or not has no distinction in this argument. You are nitpicking.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bsder 6y ago

> Overall, in the end Prop 22 was a wash. Really? We've got employees with benefits and healthcare who just got their healthcare yanked out from under them in the middle of a pandemic. That looks like a pretty big net loss to me.