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>>Recidivism in the US is 55% after 5 years, as compared to Norway's 20%. I'm no defender of the US prison system, but why compare the US to Norway, a country

>>Recidivism in the US is 55% after 5 years, as compared to Norway's 20%. I'm no defender of the US prison system, but why compare the US to Norway, a country with: * a population of 5 million Norwegians, the descendants of whom actually rank very high in socioeconomic indicators in the US * one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, thanks in large part to being one of the highest per capita oil exporters in the world for decades

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> but why compare the US to Norway Because it is currently fashionable in the US to esteem, exalt, or even hallow many things Scandavian. If you live in the US, you’ve no doubt seen this. To many in the US, the Scandavians have just nailed it everything social-economic. Personally, I wish we’d take more influence from their diet (fish! fish! more fish!)
- Ntrails 6y ago
  > Personally, I wish we’d take more influence from their diet (fish! fish! more fish!) I mean, the furthest you can get from fresh fish in Norway is pretty different to what is seen in most the US. I'm not sure that Fish is the answer there
  - TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
    > I'm not sure that Fish is the answer there Well, there was no question so I’m not sure what fish is or is not the answer to. Anyway, you cannot deny America’s obsession with Scandinavia culture, economy, and society.
Dylan16807 6y ago
> a population of 5 million Norwegians, the descendants of whom actually rank very high in socioeconomic indicators in the US Why does this matter? > one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, thanks in large part to being one of the highest per capita oil exporters in the world for decades Their GDP per capita is almost identical to the US. (And the US has tons of oil too for what it's worth.)
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  Because who the people are, who administer the prison system, and who are the objects of the prison system's rehabilitation program, matters. Humanity isn't a mass of identical copies. Certain traits, that might be highly conducive to effective rehabilitation, concentrate in certain regions of the world. A smaller polity also tends to mean a much more accountable government which might be expected to be much more effective at implementing any policy. >>Their GDP per capita is almost identical to the US. Nominal per capita GDP is $5,000 higher. The country also has a population that is 80X smaller. Smaller population size tends mean much smaller regional variations in socioeconomic conditions and fewer regions with the extreme conditions associated with high crime rates and pervasive criminal sub-cultures.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    Don't we think the way we handle prisons greatly affects the culture around them? > Smaller population size tends mean much smaller regional variations in socioeconomic conditions and fewer regions with the extreme conditions associated with high crime rates and pervasive criminal sub-cultures. Do US regional prisons in non-hotspot areas do much better? How many criminal sub-cultures extend past a single city?
mdoms 6y ago
Are you really suggesting that a country full of white people is a priori superior to a diverse country? Do you realise how insanely racist that is? Can you back up your assertion that Norway's good record on recidivism is because of all the whites?
- gitrog 6y ago
  Hold up. That's a bit of a strawman argument. He didn't say "country full of white people", he specifically mentioned socioeconomic status. Socioeconomic status generally correlates negatively with criminality. There's nothing inherently racist about that statement, it's just stating that: - desperate people will do desperate things to survive - oppressed people are bound to lash out - the poor are powerless against authority - people in poorer neighbourhoods are prone to overpolicing - destitute people are more likely to succumb to substance abuse If he said recidivism or crime rates were higher because the population was black/hispanic/etc, that would obviously be racist.
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    But when it comes to US vs. Norway, surely what matters is their status in their home country. Why is the status of the descendants of the ones that move to the US important, if you're not trying to say it's something innate about them? I don't want to assume such a motivation for bringing it up, which is why in my own comment I just asked why it was relevant in a completely neutral way. But that got me no response.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      Culture matters, and survives migration.
      - gitrog 6y ago
        Now you're losing me. In what way does "culture" matter? Socioeconomic status has nothing to do with "culture".

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

> but why compare the US to Norway Because it is currently fashionable in the US to esteem, exalt, or even hallow many things Scandavian. If you live in the US, you’ve no doubt seen this. To many in the US, the Scandavians have just nailed it everything social-economic. Personally, I wish we’d take more influence from their diet (fish! fish! more fish!)

Ntrails 6y ago
> Personally, I wish we’d take more influence from their diet (fish! fish! more fish!) I mean, the furthest you can get from fresh fish in Norway is pretty different to what is seen in most the US. I'm not sure that Fish is the answer there
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  > I'm not sure that Fish is the answer there Well, there was no question so I’m not sure what fish is or is not the answer to. Anyway, you cannot deny America’s obsession with Scandinavia culture, economy, and society.

Dylan16807 6y ago

> a population of 5 million Norwegians, the descendants of whom actually rank very high in socioeconomic indicators in the US Why does this matter? > one of the highest per capita GDPs in the world, thanks in large part to being one of the highest per capita oil exporters in the world for decades Their GDP per capita is almost identical to the US. (And the US has tons of oil too for what it's worth.)

CryptoPunk 6y ago
Because who the people are, who administer the prison system, and who are the objects of the prison system's rehabilitation program, matters. Humanity isn't a mass of identical copies. Certain traits, that might be highly conducive to effective rehabilitation, concentrate in certain regions of the world. A smaller polity also tends to mean a much more accountable government which might be expected to be much more effective at implementing any policy. >>Their GDP per capita is almost identical to the US. Nominal per capita GDP is $5,000 higher. The country also has a population that is 80X smaller. Smaller population size tends mean much smaller regional variations in socioeconomic conditions and fewer regions with the extreme conditions associated with high crime rates and pervasive criminal sub-cultures.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  Don't we think the way we handle prisons greatly affects the culture around them? > Smaller population size tends mean much smaller regional variations in socioeconomic conditions and fewer regions with the extreme conditions associated with high crime rates and pervasive criminal sub-cultures. Do US regional prisons in non-hotspot areas do much better? How many criminal sub-cultures extend past a single city?

mdoms 6y ago

Are you really suggesting that a country full of white people is a priori superior to a diverse country? Do you realise how insanely racist that is? Can you back up your assertion that Norway's good record on recidivism is because of all the whites?

gitrog 6y ago
Hold up. That's a bit of a strawman argument. He didn't say "country full of white people", he specifically mentioned socioeconomic status. Socioeconomic status generally correlates negatively with criminality. There's nothing inherently racist about that statement, it's just stating that: - desperate people will do desperate things to survive - oppressed people are bound to lash out - the poor are powerless against authority - people in poorer neighbourhoods are prone to overpolicing - destitute people are more likely to succumb to substance abuse If he said recidivism or crime rates were higher because the population was black/hispanic/etc, that would obviously be racist.
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  But when it comes to US vs. Norway, surely what matters is their status in their home country. Why is the status of the descendants of the ones that move to the US important, if you're not trying to say it's something innate about them? I don't want to assume such a motivation for bringing it up, which is why in my own comment I just asked why it was relevant in a completely neutral way. But that got me no response.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    Culture matters, and survives migration.
    - gitrog 6y ago
      Now you're losing me. In what way does "culture" matter? Socioeconomic status has nothing to do with "culture".