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>When do you declare your values? Is it always a moving target? To be a conscientious objector in the United States, there needs to be a demonstrable history of

by ahepp 6y ago

>When do you declare your values? Is it always a moving target? To be a conscientious objector in the United States, there needs to be a demonstrable history of your objection. You can't get drafted and then suddenly find religion. How do you stop the inevitable abuse of this exclusion? Well, we're talking about working on software projects here. I work in defense and would have no qualms about the whole Project Maven thing. But if all they want is the freedom to decline to work on it, that seems pretty reasonable to me. They didn't sign up for that stuff, and Google isn't primarily a defense company. The draft is (in theory) an emergency measure for the good of the nation. Just like the government can force you to pay taxes, they can force you to fight in the military. That's certainly not a power a private corporation should have.

erklik 6y ago
> They didn't sign up for that stuff I find this sentiment quite weird honestly. The "contract" between the employee and the employer is that the employee does what the employer asks of them, and in return gets paid for his work. If these employees do not desire to work on projects that Google is getting, then they should terminate the contract and find work elsewhere. So, Actually. That's exactly what they signed up for. It is bonkers to me that a employee does not work on what the employee wants to work on, within a company, and yet also expects the employer to keep paying them. This honestly sounds like so much privilege. These workers are top 1% of the world, it sounds like "whining" when you are not in their position.
- ahepp 6y ago
  Is that "privilege"? Sure, it's power. It's a straightforward extension of the "take-it-or-leave-it" principle you describe. I have the power to tell my boss "I'm not going to work on that", and they're free to keep paying me to do something else instead. It's the same power I use to negotiate my pay and benefits, and the entire reason I developed this skillset and work in this industry. Using that power to form a union and wield it collectively is one aspect of the right to freely associate. If Alphabet workers want to use that collective power to negotiate a legal contract protecting their job if they refuse to work on a project, that's their right.
  - erklik 6y ago
    > and they're free to keep paying me to do something else instead But I am guessing they're not free to fire you, right? So, it's not really "take-it-or-leave-it" but more "take-it-or-choose-something-else". There's not leaving involved. > If Alphabet workers want to use that collective power to negotiate a legal contract protecting their job if they refuse to work on a project, that's their right. This is what confuses me, and maybe you can help me understand. 1. Employee and Employer have a contract where Employee will work on what Employer wants and get paid in return. 2. Employee does not want to work on what Employer wants, yet wants to be paid i.e. wants the employer to honor their part of the contract while wanting to renege on their part. Let's use another example. Would one be supportive of employees wanting to only work FOSS while at Alphabet refusing to work on anything else, and still "protect their job" i.e. not be fired?
    - ahepp 6y ago
      They're free to fire you whenever, for no reason, unless a (union?) contract says differently.
- throwaway314158 6y ago
  > The "contract" between the employee and the employer is that the employee does what the employer asks of them, and in return gets paid for his work. If these employees do not desire to work on projects that Google is getting, then they should terminate the contract and find work elsewhere. Ah, okay. So if your current employer asked you and your coworkers to do something that was legal but highly unethical, you and every one of your coworkers would be financially secure enough to quit at the drop of a hat? Must be nice.
  - erklik 6y ago
    > you and every one of your coworkers would be financially secure enough to quit at the drop of a hat If i worked at Google, where SWE's are earning above 120K at a graduate level. I would hope so. I don't earn that sort of money, nor have that level of a safety net, so therefore, I must compromise and continue to work.
- AshWolfy 6y ago
  What do you think negotiations are for? Google will decide if accepting these projects is worth keeping their workforce and the workers will decide what they can accept working on for money

by ahepp 6y ago

erklik 6y ago

> They didn't sign up for that stuff I find this sentiment quite weird honestly. The "contract" between the employee and the employer is that the employee does what the employer asks of them, and in return gets paid for his work. If these employees do not desire to work on projects that Google is getting, then they should terminate the contract and find work elsewhere. So, Actually. That's exactly what they signed up for. It is bonkers to me that a employee does not work on what the employee wants to work on, within a company, and yet also expects the employer to keep paying them. This honestly sounds like so much privilege. These workers are top 1% of the world, it sounds like "whining" when you are not in their position.

ahepp 6y ago
Is that "privilege"? Sure, it's power. It's a straightforward extension of the "take-it-or-leave-it" principle you describe. I have the power to tell my boss "I'm not going to work on that", and they're free to keep paying me to do something else instead. It's the same power I use to negotiate my pay and benefits, and the entire reason I developed this skillset and work in this industry. Using that power to form a union and wield it collectively is one aspect of the right to freely associate. If Alphabet workers want to use that collective power to negotiate a legal contract protecting their job if they refuse to work on a project, that's their right.
- erklik 6y ago
  > and they're free to keep paying me to do something else instead But I am guessing they're not free to fire you, right? So, it's not really "take-it-or-leave-it" but more "take-it-or-choose-something-else". There's not leaving involved. > If Alphabet workers want to use that collective power to negotiate a legal contract protecting their job if they refuse to work on a project, that's their right. This is what confuses me, and maybe you can help me understand. 1. Employee and Employer have a contract where Employee will work on what Employer wants and get paid in return. 2. Employee does not want to work on what Employer wants, yet wants to be paid i.e. wants the employer to honor their part of the contract while wanting to renege on their part. Let's use another example. Would one be supportive of employees wanting to only work FOSS while at Alphabet refusing to work on anything else, and still "protect their job" i.e. not be fired?
  - ahepp 6y ago
    They're free to fire you whenever, for no reason, unless a (union?) contract says differently.
throwaway314158 6y ago
> The "contract" between the employee and the employer is that the employee does what the employer asks of them, and in return gets paid for his work. If these employees do not desire to work on projects that Google is getting, then they should terminate the contract and find work elsewhere. Ah, okay. So if your current employer asked you and your coworkers to do something that was legal but highly unethical, you and every one of your coworkers would be financially secure enough to quit at the drop of a hat? Must be nice.
- erklik 6y ago
  > you and every one of your coworkers would be financially secure enough to quit at the drop of a hat If i worked at Google, where SWE's are earning above 120K at a graduate level. I would hope so. I don't earn that sort of money, nor have that level of a safety net, so therefore, I must compromise and continue to work.
AshWolfy 6y ago
What do you think negotiations are for? Google will decide if accepting these projects is worth keeping their workforce and the workers will decide what they can accept working on for money