8 ms·

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leav

by pwned1 6y ago

Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck.

thesuitonym 6y ago
You would have a part in shaping the contract, though. And if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before.
- toast0 6y ago
  If the new contract is worse, leaving the union isn't sufficient to get back to where you were, because the employer won't offer the old terms to non-union members and the new terms to union members.
- rlewkov 6y ago
  You may or may not be better off. How will people that are/aren't part of a union be treated if some people are members? If majority is union and you are not, will you be shunned, denied same opportunities for promotion, etc? We can only guess.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    The management have to find out you're in a union first, then ... why do they shun you, what's the play you're imagining here? Don't you have employment contracts? People will, at least under rule of law, be treated according to their contracts and your country's employment law?? Does your company currently investigate who you've spoken to about your job and seek to punish you for representing your better interests?
    - RHSeeger 6y ago
      I believe the person you're replying to was talking about how non-union members would be treated by union members. And, at least in the US, the answer is "horrible". The people in the unions are widely known for coming out hard and strong, with considerable bile, against anyone that so much as expresses the opinion that the union might not be the right choice for them. Rats, scabs, etc; pick your insulting name, they're called it.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before. Completely false. With the ways that union laws work, if the majority of workers at a company unionize, then I have no choice but to be subject to their contract and fees. Most tech companies are not in right to work states, so I'd have to go along with the contract. That is how I would be worse off.
  - oarabbus_ 6y ago
    >Most tech companies are not in right to work states, so I'd have to go along with the contract. Most tech companies are located in California, which is a right to work state.
    - pxx 6y ago
      What? No it isn't. Smattering of links: https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-work-laws-and-bills.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-... https://legalbeagle.com/13720413-is-california-a-right-to-work-state.html https://legalbeagle.com/13720413-is-california-a-right-to-wo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#US_states_with_right-to-work_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#US_states_wi...
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    Where are you that has laws constraining that you have to be a part of a particular union, sounds very Soviet (in the fascist, dictatorial sense).
    - RHSeeger 6y ago
      Only 28 states have right-to-work laws. In the rest, unions can force you to join or not work at the company in question.
    - djrobstep 6y ago
      Why is it bad to be forced to be part of a union and contribute dues involuntarily, but OK to be forced to contribute to your employer's profits involuntarily?
- tengbretson 6y ago
  And you have about as much leverage in shaping the union contract as you do in negotiating your individual employment contract, so where's the win?
  - IX-103 6y ago
    The difference is in the incentives. The union tries to make it's members happy. The employer tries to avoid liability and make a profit. One of those is more aligned with your interests than the other.
pbhjpbhj 6y ago
I (from the UK) don't understand: you don't have to join a union. Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. It's 'take greater combined power against the corporation you work for' (and in things like representation of your industry before government) or stand on your own as you do now. I don't understand how it's possible to lose? You can even wimp out at the first call for solidarity of you want to. In my current role there are 3 unions that are well represented in the work place, I chose one that seems best to represent my interests and that has members in industries I might move in to. Benefits for me are currently advice seminars on career progression and work related issues (pensions!), and annual pay negotiations (which are quite weak, pressing for inflationary pay rises).
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  In a lot of cases, once there's a union you're either in it or unemployed. Unions have a lot of benefits and a lot of negatives. But voting to have one without knowing what _this specific one_ will have either way, knowing that you _must_ be part of it if it passes... that's not a clear decision.
- diebeforei485 6y ago
  This is not how most unions in America work. Usually the entire workforce is represented by (and pays dues to) the same union. Today's Google/Alphabet thing may be an exception to this.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  >Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. Union contracts with the company typically bar the company from keeping or entering contracts with non-union workers that have different terms from those of the union. In many (23) US states, when a union forms at a workplace, it can compel all non-union workers to pay fees to the union, weather they want to join or not. I think most US workers would be for unions if they were presented as you described, where you can choose between different options or working without a union.
taurath 6y ago
Its funny to see someone argue for less control over their workplace because they're used to being handed take-it-or-leave it contracts because they've never had any power in the workplace other than to leave. The feeling you're describing is called negotiation power. What if you and your coworkers like your job but are getting slavedriven for 80 hours a week and that just doesn't work out for you? Right now you have the following options: 1. Leave. If you had a union you could: 1. Leave. 2. Decide to stop working along with other coworkers who are also pissed off until they agree to stop slavedriving you. 3. Decide to stop working along with other coworkers who are also pissed off until they agree to pay you more for being slavedriven. I like the latter myself. Having people who care about an enterprise means you don't end up getting run entirely by a bunch of MBAs who listen to complaints while watching a spreadsheet of average tenure.
ardy42 6y ago
> Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck. That's not a reasonable position, since you're basically asking for someone to predict the future for you (accurately, I hope). Not knowing "how it will turn out" is life, for instance have you ever hired someone new with the knowledge of how they'll perform over the next few years? The answer is no, because it's impossible. You never know what a contract will be before you negotiate it, and you can always quit and work someplace else if you don't like it. Which is exactly what you probably have now, except your employer writes your contract unilaterally without your input or that of anyone like you.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > You never know what a contract will be before you negotiate it False. What we can do is look at real life examples of how contracts in other unions have turned out. That is a good baseline for what we could expect from other union contracts. And the actual, real life examples of other unions, shows me that I absolutely would not want to be in a union. We do not get to just throw away and ignore the decades and decades of examples of union contracts. That is real evidence that we can look at. And the evidence shows me that I do not want to be in a union contract, based on what other union contracts commonly look like.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > False. What we can do is look at real life examples of how contracts in other unions have turned out. That is a good baseline for what we could expect from other union contracts. Ok, then. There are a lot of "other unions," which ones are you thinking about? They're pretty diverse. I mean you have all the way from autoworkers, to the film industry, the public sector, to engineers (at Boeing for instance). > And the actual, real life examples of other unions, shows me that I absolutely would not want to be in a union. Then go find a non-union workplace, then? It's not like they're going to get banned or anything, and they currently consist of about 100% of software engineering workplaces in the US. There's this weird vibe I get from some people that tech unions shouldn't exist at all because they personally don't like the idea of them. What about choice?
ughitsaaron 6y ago
That's not how collective bargaining works. A contract has to be negotiated between the union members and management. As a member, you would have a say in the contract that the union negotiates. For example, I was a member of the organizing committee for the union at my last job where I worked as a software engineer. After the union was recognized, members held an election for all the union's leadership positions as well as for the members of the bargaining committee that negotiates the contract with management. Bargaining sessions between the union and management is completely open for any member of the union to attend. The committee publishes reports to the membership after each bargaining session on the items discussed. Presuming the union and management come agree to the terms that would go into a contract, that tentative agreement is sent to the members of the union to vote on and either accept the terms, or to reject them, in which case the union and management will continue to bargain a new tentative agreement. What you're describing "tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out" is actually what happens when you accept any new job you take. When you accept a job offer, you know a few things, e.g., your salary and benefits, your manager, etc. But there's a lot you wouldn't typically know, e.g., how performance is evaluated and how promotions and raises are determined, what your workload would be and what protections you might have from overwork or excessive discipline or unfair termination. What a union provides is not only a voice for everyone in the workplace, but for collectively bargaining and making clear the the conditions and treatment you can expect in your workplace.

by pwned1 6y ago

thesuitonym 6y ago

You would have a part in shaping the contract, though. And if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before.

toast0 6y ago
If the new contract is worse, leaving the union isn't sufficient to get back to where you were, because the employer won't offer the old terms to non-union members and the new terms to union members.
rlewkov 6y ago
You may or may not be better off. How will people that are/aren't part of a union be treated if some people are members? If majority is union and you are not, will you be shunned, denied same opportunities for promotion, etc? We can only guess.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  The management have to find out you're in a union first, then ... why do they shun you, what's the play you're imagining here? Don't you have employment contracts? People will, at least under rule of law, be treated according to their contracts and your country's employment law?? Does your company currently investigate who you've spoken to about your job and seek to punish you for representing your better interests?
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    I believe the person you're replying to was talking about how non-union members would be treated by union members. And, at least in the US, the answer is "horrible". The people in the unions are widely known for coming out hard and strong, with considerable bile, against anyone that so much as expresses the opinion that the union might not be the right choice for them. Rats, scabs, etc; pick your insulting name, they're called it.
stale2002 6y ago
> if you don't like it, yeah, leave the union, you're no worse off than you were before. Completely false. With the ways that union laws work, if the majority of workers at a company unionize, then I have no choice but to be subject to their contract and fees. Most tech companies are not in right to work states, so I'd have to go along with the contract. That is how I would be worse off.
- oarabbus_ 6y ago
  >Most tech companies are not in right to work states, so I'd have to go along with the contract. Most tech companies are located in California, which is a right to work state.
  - pxx 6y ago
    What? No it isn't. Smattering of links: https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-work-laws-and-bills.aspx https://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/right-to-... https://legalbeagle.com/13720413-is-california-a-right-to-work-state.html https://legalbeagle.com/13720413-is-california-a-right-to-wo... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#US_states_with_right-to-work_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law#US_states_wi...
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  Where are you that has laws constraining that you have to be a part of a particular union, sounds very Soviet (in the fascist, dictatorial sense).
  - RHSeeger 6y ago
    Only 28 states have right-to-work laws. In the rest, unions can force you to join or not work at the company in question.
  - djrobstep 6y ago
    Why is it bad to be forced to be part of a union and contribute dues involuntarily, but OK to be forced to contribute to your employer's profits involuntarily?
tengbretson 6y ago
And you have about as much leverage in shaping the union contract as you do in negotiating your individual employment contract, so where's the win?
- IX-103 6y ago
  The difference is in the incentives. The union tries to make it's members happy. The employer tries to avoid liability and make a profit. One of those is more aligned with your interests than the other.

pbhjpbhj 6y ago

I (from the UK) don't understand: you don't have to join a union. Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. It's 'take greater combined power against the corporation you work for' (and in things like representation of your industry before government) or stand on your own as you do now. I don't understand how it's possible to lose? You can even wimp out at the first call for solidarity of you want to. In my current role there are 3 unions that are well represented in the work place, I chose one that seems best to represent my interests and that has members in industries I might move in to. Benefits for me are currently advice seminars on career progression and work related issues (pensions!), and annual pay negotiations (which are quite weak, pressing for inflationary pay rises).

RHSeeger 6y ago
In a lot of cases, once there's a union you're either in it or unemployed. Unions have a lot of benefits and a lot of negatives. But voting to have one without knowing what _this specific one_ will have either way, knowing that you _must_ be part of it if it passes... that's not a clear decision.
diebeforei485 6y ago
This is not how most unions in America work. Usually the entire workforce is represented by (and pays dues to) the same union. Today's Google/Alphabet thing may be an exception to this.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
>Keep your current contract and don't have a say in Union representation and negotiation, if that's what you want. Union contracts with the company typically bar the company from keeping or entering contracts with non-union workers that have different terms from those of the union. In many (23) US states, when a union forms at a workplace, it can compel all non-union workers to pay fees to the union, weather they want to join or not. I think most US workers would be for unions if they were presented as you described, where you can choose between different options or working without a union.

taurath 6y ago

Its funny to see someone argue for less control over their workplace because they're used to being handed take-it-or-leave it contracts because they've never had any power in the workplace other than to leave. The feeling you're describing is called negotiation power. What if you and your coworkers like your job but are getting slavedriven for 80 hours a week and that just doesn't work out for you? Right now you have the following options: 1. Leave. If you had a union you could: 1. Leave. 2. Decide to stop working along with other coworkers who are also pissed off until they agree to stop slavedriving you. 3. Decide to stop working along with other coworkers who are also pissed off until they agree to pay you more for being slavedriven. I like the latter myself. Having people who care about an enterprise means you don't end up getting run entirely by a bunch of MBAs who listen to complaints while watching a spreadsheet of average tenure.

ardy42 6y ago

> Sounds like the cart before the horse. Tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out, and then present me with a take it or leave it contract months later. And I'm stuck. That's not a reasonable position, since you're basically asking for someone to predict the future for you (accurately, I hope). Not knowing "how it will turn out" is life, for instance have you ever hired someone new with the knowledge of how they'll perform over the next few years? The answer is no, because it's impossible. You never know what a contract will be before you negotiate it, and you can always quit and work someplace else if you don't like it. Which is exactly what you probably have now, except your employer writes your contract unilaterally without your input or that of anyone like you.

stale2002 6y ago
> You never know what a contract will be before you negotiate it False. What we can do is look at real life examples of how contracts in other unions have turned out. That is a good baseline for what we could expect from other union contracts. And the actual, real life examples of other unions, shows me that I absolutely would not want to be in a union. We do not get to just throw away and ignore the decades and decades of examples of union contracts. That is real evidence that we can look at. And the evidence shows me that I do not want to be in a union contract, based on what other union contracts commonly look like.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > False. What we can do is look at real life examples of how contracts in other unions have turned out. That is a good baseline for what we could expect from other union contracts. Ok, then. There are a lot of "other unions," which ones are you thinking about? They're pretty diverse. I mean you have all the way from autoworkers, to the film industry, the public sector, to engineers (at Boeing for instance). > And the actual, real life examples of other unions, shows me that I absolutely would not want to be in a union. Then go find a non-union workplace, then? It's not like they're going to get banned or anything, and they currently consist of about 100% of software engineering workplaces in the US. There's this weird vibe I get from some people that tech unions shouldn't exist at all because they personally don't like the idea of them. What about choice?

ughitsaaron 6y ago

That's not how collective bargaining works. A contract has to be negotiated between the union members and management. As a member, you would have a say in the contract that the union negotiates. For example, I was a member of the organizing committee for the union at my last job where I worked as a software engineer. After the union was recognized, members held an election for all the union's leadership positions as well as for the members of the bargaining committee that negotiates the contract with management. Bargaining sessions between the union and management is completely open for any member of the union to attend. The committee publishes reports to the membership after each bargaining session on the items discussed. Presuming the union and management come agree to the terms that would go into a contract, that tentative agreement is sent to the members of the union to vote on and either accept the terms, or to reject them, in which case the union and management will continue to bargain a new tentative agreement. What you're describing "tell me I'm signing up for something that I have no idea how it will turn out" is actually what happens when you accept any new job you take. When you accept a job offer, you know a few things, e.g., your salary and benefits, your manager, etc. But there's a lot you wouldn't typically know, e.g., how performance is evaluated and how promotions and raises are determined, what your workload would be and what protections you might have from overwork or excessive discipline or unfair termination. What a union provides is not only a voice for everyone in the workplace, but for collectively bargaining and making clear the the conditions and treatment you can expect in your workplace.