7 ms·

I still feel it’s a conspiracy theory but Jack Ma is absolutely being targeted. He was beloved by the Chinese media as a motivational speaker as well as a busin

by klik99 6y ago

I still feel it’s a conspiracy theory but Jack Ma is absolutely being targeted. He was beloved by the Chinese media as a motivational speaker as well as a business man, when he started not speaking highly of CCP (which is tantamount to criticizing) I told my wife that in a year he would be vilified by the media, and sure enough here we are at the first stages of that. This might be happening on a case by case basis with those who don’t want to “play ball”, but I don’t believe there is a concerted effort to bring down all billionaires. Reminds me of the rise of the middle class in Europe as they threatened the existing power structure. Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed.

antibuddy 6y ago
It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. That being said: Your explanation makes more sense to me. It is often enough to anger the wrong person to get a bad treatment (well, even assassination). And looking at history this is exponentiated in dictatorships, where power is concentrated on few ppl, who can act with impunity.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  > that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. To be fair though, that never was much of a conspiracy. Maybe in the United States it was but in the rest of the world I don't think people believe the WMD story, rather, we believed the UN weapons inspectors' story.
  - elindbe3 6y ago
    A poorly executed conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      No, it was simply a lie. And one that should have fallen completely flat. My respect for Colin Powell went through the floor that day.
    - MichaelZuo 6y ago
      The word ‘conspiracy’ itself has a legal, original, meaning entirely different from the popular meaning. I find all good discussions involving this clarify what meaning is intended.
      - vmception 6y ago
        I resort to just saying the definition of words, in a sentence, instead of the word itself. I've told and convinced plenty of anti-vaxxers about the magical secret way our body naturally produces antibodies if we expose our body to dead versions of a virus (or, now, things shaped like that virus). They like magic, secrets and nature, they do not like the word vaccine. I do the same with the word conspiracy, "That is a secret plan by a group to do something harmful". It rolls off the tongue.
        Bakary 6y ago
        The only really effective way to change someone's mind is to make them believe they came up with the conclusions themselves
    - jeremyclrk 6y ago
      2018: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/chinas-hna-group-chairman-wang-dies-after-fall-in-france.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/chinas-hna-group-chairman-wa... 2017: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hongkong-billionaire-idUSKBN15Q09Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hongkong-billionair... 2017: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/scores-of-chinese-billionaires-and-ceos-have-disappeared-in-statesanctioned-abductions/news-story/7d2d1cfeadd6b47ab66087d7f44d877f https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/scores... 2016: https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/08/investing/china-metersbonwe-missing-billionaire/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/08/investing/china-metersbonwe... 2017: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jianhua-canadian-citizen-china-disappearance-1.3961114 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jianhua-canadian-citizen-china... 2016: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35261090 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35261090 2013: https://qz.com/116011/the-mystery-of-chinas-missing-millionaires/ https://qz.com/116011/the-mystery-of-chinas-missing-milliona...
- ardy42 6y ago
  > It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. I think that's interpreting the term "conspiracy theory" more broadly than it's typically used. IMHO, colloquially it pretty much only refers to outlandish theories, based little to no actual evidence, and usually requiring a conspiracy so impossibly large and impossibly well executed that it beggars belief. I don't think the idea that Jack Ma is being targeted by the CCP is just a plausible theory, not a conspiracy theory (in the colloquial sense). You have a group with the motive, means, and MO to do so, you just need to find the proof.
  - rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
    Watergate would've been a better example of a time when the conspiracy theorists turned out to be right.
  - antibuddy 6y ago
    > I don't think the idea that Jack Ma is being targeted by the CCP is just a plausible theory, not a conspiracy theory (in the colloquial sense). You have a group with the motive, means, and MO to do so, you just need to find the proof. Which is the definition of a conspiracy theory. Words have meaning and this is a technical term; and altho it is common knowledge that it is being used as a smear word, this doesn't mean we have to play the same game here as well. There is also no reason to pretend that the colloquial usage of conspiracy theory is more than opinion.
mgreenleaf 6y ago
Your post reminded me of my recent encounter with the phrase "damning with faint praise". It is interesting how applicable it is in authoritarian governments; you can't simply praise, you must give enthusiastic encomiums. That is particularly interesting in business, where it may be obvious to business leaders that something is wrong, but anything lackluster brings about government condemnation, which is part of the problem the business people can see. Startup founders are usually sharp, rebellious individuals trying to upend current business practices, so the condemnations damper the business spirit to some degree. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damning_with_faint_praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damning_with_faint_praise)
- trumpeta 6y ago
  I mean, I get the same feeling from Apple events, everything is constantly the best ever.
  - mordymoop 6y ago
    The worst possible condemnation of a powerful national government: to compare its normal everyday functioning to a corporate product launch. Orwell was too optimistic.
    - toxik 6y ago
      Eh, it was just a more relatable example. If anything, it shows you that our idea of oppression is Apple overstating their product's capabilities.
      - zepto 6y ago
        The Orwellian part is people talking as though it’s a fact that Apple is overstating something. As far as I can see that’s bullshit. They say what they are measuring, and people do check it. They’d be open to straight up legal action from both customers and shareholders if they were lying.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
samstave 6y ago
Putin does the same thing. and literally just takes companies from billionaires.
- coldtea 6y ago
  Ah, if only our governments would take companies from billionaires too! Or perhaps they could start with properly taxing them!
  - jp555 6y ago
    how about first journalists that don't tell lies about how taxes work. 99% they report on gross revenue and complain about how little tax is paid. And almost everyone buys it.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      I know how taxes work. That's why I don't buy the "gross revenue" argument, or the "actually the rich pay more of their income in taxes" arguments. The rich and big corporations have billions (pun intended) of ways of padding their expenses, hiding their net, moving their wealth around so it can't be taxes, making shell companies etc.
      - jp555 6y ago
        IF those are all legal actions, you do not know how taxes work (knowing how an internal combustion engine works generally does not mean you understand valve timing formulae) Your anger is misplaced, and should fall at the feet of lawmakers.
      - samstave 6y ago
        >>>*Shell Companies* Panama Papers is the most unreported, under-investigated scandal of the century
baybal2 6y ago
> Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed. And you feel it right. This is what is the explanation for the schizophrenic public position of the Chinese establishment: on one hand they shout out loud that "economic liberalisation is irreversible, opening up will go on," and on other keep tightening all legal, and extralegal nuts on private enterprise, and in overall sliding back into the madness of seventies. They have accepted the fact of millionaire chicken run to the West being unstoppable, but they at least want to prevent the multimillionaire, and billionaire chicken run. They simply want their money that much, and that started to outweight the rational interest of "not slaughtering a hen laying golden eggs" in recent 2-3 years.
DataWorker 6y ago
“Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed.” A dangerously ethnocentric perspective.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by klik99 6y ago

antibuddy 6y ago

It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. That being said: Your explanation makes more sense to me. It is often enough to anger the wrong person to get a bad treatment (well, even assassination). And looking at history this is exponentiated in dictatorships, where power is concentrated on few ppl, who can act with impunity.

jacquesm 6y ago
> that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. To be fair though, that never was much of a conspiracy. Maybe in the United States it was but in the rest of the world I don't think people believe the WMD story, rather, we believed the UN weapons inspectors' story.
- elindbe3 6y ago
  A poorly executed conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    No, it was simply a lie. And one that should have fallen completely flat. My respect for Colin Powell went through the floor that day.
  - MichaelZuo 6y ago
    The word ‘conspiracy’ itself has a legal, original, meaning entirely different from the popular meaning. I find all good discussions involving this clarify what meaning is intended.
    - vmception 6y ago
      I resort to just saying the definition of words, in a sentence, instead of the word itself. I've told and convinced plenty of anti-vaxxers about the magical secret way our body naturally produces antibodies if we expose our body to dead versions of a virus (or, now, things shaped like that virus). They like magic, secrets and nature, they do not like the word vaccine. I do the same with the word conspiracy, "That is a secret plan by a group to do something harmful". It rolls off the tongue.
      - Bakary 6y ago
        The only really effective way to change someone's mind is to make them believe they came up with the conclusions themselves
  - jeremyclrk 6y ago
    2018: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/chinas-hna-group-chairman-wang-dies-after-fall-in-france.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/chinas-hna-group-chairman-wa... 2017: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hongkong-billionaire-idUSKBN15Q09Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-hongkong-billionair... 2017: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/scores-of-chinese-billionaires-and-ceos-have-disappeared-in-statesanctioned-abductions/news-story/7d2d1cfeadd6b47ab66087d7f44d877f https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/scores... 2016: https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/08/investing/china-metersbonwe-missing-billionaire/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2016/01/08/investing/china-metersbonwe... 2017: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jianhua-canadian-citizen-china-disappearance-1.3961114 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jianhua-canadian-citizen-china... 2016: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35261090 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-35261090 2013: https://qz.com/116011/the-mystery-of-chinas-missing-millionaires/ https://qz.com/116011/the-mystery-of-chinas-missing-milliona...
ardy42 6y ago
> It is in fact a conspiracy theory. But a small reminder that conspiracy theory doesn't tell you anything about the truthfulness, e.g. that the Iraq War was based on made-up evidence was a conspiracy theory. I think that's interpreting the term "conspiracy theory" more broadly than it's typically used. IMHO, colloquially it pretty much only refers to outlandish theories, based little to no actual evidence, and usually requiring a conspiracy so impossibly large and impossibly well executed that it beggars belief. I don't think the idea that Jack Ma is being targeted by the CCP is just a plausible theory, not a conspiracy theory (in the colloquial sense). You have a group with the motive, means, and MO to do so, you just need to find the proof.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 6y ago
  Watergate would've been a better example of a time when the conspiracy theorists turned out to be right.
- antibuddy 6y ago
  > I don't think the idea that Jack Ma is being targeted by the CCP is just a plausible theory, not a conspiracy theory (in the colloquial sense). You have a group with the motive, means, and MO to do so, you just need to find the proof. Which is the definition of a conspiracy theory. Words have meaning and this is a technical term; and altho it is common knowledge that it is being used as a smear word, this doesn't mean we have to play the same game here as well. There is also no reason to pretend that the colloquial usage of conspiracy theory is more than opinion.

mgreenleaf 6y ago

Your post reminded me of my recent encounter with the phrase "damning with faint praise". It is interesting how applicable it is in authoritarian governments; you can't simply praise, you must give enthusiastic encomiums. That is particularly interesting in business, where it may be obvious to business leaders that something is wrong, but anything lackluster brings about government condemnation, which is part of the problem the business people can see. Startup founders are usually sharp, rebellious individuals trying to upend current business practices, so the condemnations damper the business spirit to some degree. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damning_with_faint_praise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damning_with_faint_praise)

trumpeta 6y ago
I mean, I get the same feeling from Apple events, everything is constantly the best ever.
- mordymoop 6y ago
  The worst possible condemnation of a powerful national government: to compare its normal everyday functioning to a corporate product launch. Orwell was too optimistic.
  - toxik 6y ago
    Eh, it was just a more relatable example. If anything, it shows you that our idea of oppression is Apple overstating their product's capabilities.
    - zepto 6y ago
      The Orwellian part is people talking as though it’s a fact that Apple is overstating something. As far as I can see that’s bullshit. They say what they are measuring, and people do check it. They’d be open to straight up legal action from both customers and shareholders if they were lying.
  - mhh__ 6y ago

samstave 6y ago

Putin does the same thing. and literally just takes companies from billionaires.

coldtea 6y ago
Ah, if only our governments would take companies from billionaires too! Or perhaps they could start with properly taxing them!
- jp555 6y ago
  how about first journalists that don't tell lies about how taxes work. 99% they report on gross revenue and complain about how little tax is paid. And almost everyone buys it.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    I know how taxes work. That's why I don't buy the "gross revenue" argument, or the "actually the rich pay more of their income in taxes" arguments. The rich and big corporations have billions (pun intended) of ways of padding their expenses, hiding their net, moving their wealth around so it can't be taxes, making shell companies etc.
    - jp555 6y ago
      IF those are all legal actions, you do not know how taxes work (knowing how an internal combustion engine works generally does not mean you understand valve timing formulae) Your anger is misplaced, and should fall at the feet of lawmakers.
    - samstave 6y ago
      >>>*Shell Companies* Panama Papers is the most unreported, under-investigated scandal of the century

baybal2 6y ago

> Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed. And you feel it right. This is what is the explanation for the schizophrenic public position of the Chinese establishment: on one hand they shout out loud that "economic liberalisation is irreversible, opening up will go on," and on other keep tightening all legal, and extralegal nuts on private enterprise, and in overall sliding back into the madness of seventies. They have accepted the fact of millionaire chicken run to the West being unstoppable, but they at least want to prevent the multimillionaire, and billionaire chicken run. They simply want their money that much, and that started to outweight the rational interest of "not slaughtering a hen laying golden eggs" in recent 2-3 years.

DataWorker 6y ago

“Sometimes it feels China is going through the same stages of history Europe went through over centuries but at breakneck speed.” A dangerously ethnocentric perspective.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]