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Singapore says contact tracing data may be used for criminal investigations

146 points by acekingspade 6y ago

ainiriand 6y ago
It should say 'contact' instead of contract.
- acekingspade 6y ago
  Thanks. Fixed.
wyxuan 6y ago
According to this article (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53146360 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53146360) the Singapore contact tracing app works the same way the iOS and Android do, so no location tracking. From my read of the situation, there is some worry that activists might be cracked down upon.
- acekingspade 6y ago
  The difference is that Apple/Google contact tracing gives the user control over their data. Singapore's app works differently. Once someone's app picks up your signal, it's logged on their device and there's no way to delete it. The data is handed over to the authorities who have a list of everyone that they interacted with. Source: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/apple-google-contact-tracing-system-not-effective-for-singapore-vivian-balakrishnan https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/apple-google-contact-...
  - ValentineC 6y ago
    > Once someone's app picks up your signal, it's logged on their device and there's no way to delete it. Unless they've changed the schema, it should be just a SQLite database [1]. Most people with some competence at app development should be able to access the data file on their (Android) phones, and delete any rows which might prove troublesome. They could also just uninstall the app and wipe all data if they want. [1] https://medium.com/@frankvolkel/tracetogether-under-the-hood-7d5e509aeb5d https://medium.com/@frankvolkel/tracetogether-under-the-hood...
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  Activists are already cracked down plenty. Here's one currently under criminal investigation for holding up a sign with a smiley face (and nothing else) on it: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55068007 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55068007
ignoramous 6y ago
Singapore is a surveillance state. Don't be fooled by its corporate friendliness and general societal progress. The government is every bit authoritarian which at this point increasingly looks like a euphemism for totalitarian. https://www.aristeon.net/2019/04/singapore-as-pioneer-of-capitalist.html https://www.aristeon.net/2019/04/singapore-as-pioneer-of-cap...
- mparramon 6y ago
  >Singapore’s parliamentary political system has been dominated by the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) and the family of current prime minister Lee Hsien Loong since 1959. The electoral and legal framework that the PAP has constructed allows for some political pluralism, but it constrains the growth of credible opposition parties and limits freedoms of expression, assembly, and association. https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2020 https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/202...
- jesterson 6y ago
  Corporate friendliness is not a disguise. It's needed to sustain the surveillance state cashflow. As for general societal progress, I am really not sure what are you talking about. There is no progress whatsoever.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > There is no progress whatsoever. Economic progress is a thing. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/singapore/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/singapore/overview > Singapore is a high-income economy with a gross national income of US$54,530 per capita, as of 2017. The country provides one of the world’s most business-friendly regulatory environment for local entrepreneurs and is ranked among the world’s most competitive economies. > In the decades after independence, Singapore rapidly developed from a low-income country to a high-income country. GDP growth in the city-state has been amongst the world’s highest, at an average of 7.7% since independence and topping 9.2% in the first 25 years.
    - 6y ago
jesterson 6y ago
That was expected from the very beginning. Government will collect as much data as possible citing medical reasons and then use the data as it pleases saying since we collect, we are free to use as we want (citing again some blah-blah about public benefits). What's surprising is that they disclose it. Perhaps he just wasnt prepared for the question
- powerapple 6y ago
  You have some data in the hands of any government, and once you have a judge's approval, the data will be obtained by the authority regardless where you are. It makes sense that the data should be stored on your devices only. If a criminal is caught with his phone, the data can still be obtained by the police (the same as phone records for example), and it can still be useful for criminal investigation, and normal citizen don't have to worry about their data. It is actually achievable with Google and Apple's approach. And I think it was a genuine answer. This is a reply to MP, not a random reporter on streets.
  - jesterson 6y ago
    I believe you're missing the point. At first, they explain the information is collected solely for medical reasons. Now they say they can use it as they please. Don't you see fallacy here? I am sure it was a genuine answer - that's why I was surprised. Usually those things are sugar covered.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >At first, they explain the information is collected solely for medical reasons. Now they say they can use it as they please. Don't you see fallacy here? Technically not a fallacy (as there's no logical fault in what they said). Just falling back on a promise to the public.
      - hagibborim 6y ago
        It's not a logical fallacy, but it's still a fallacy.
malka 6y ago
Surprising. It seems usually a bad idea to trust a government.
- kasperni 6y ago
  That really depends on where you are in the world.
  - tehlike 6y ago
    Not really. It might be good now, but no guarantees that it will stay that way. Principle of least privilege and data should be the norm but sadly it never is.
    - kasperni 6y ago
      > Not really. It might be good now, but no guarantees that it will stay that way. By that definition there really aren't any entities that you can trust. Including family, friends, etc.
      - malka 6y ago
        You cannot compare individual, and abstract entities such as states. Humans feel empathy. States (and corporations) only follow interests.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        slg 6y ago
        >Humans feel empathy. States (and corporations) only follow interests. This is such a bizarre statement to me. States and corporations are made of people. For the states and corporations to lack empathy it means the people controlling them are lacking empathy.
        6y ago
poxwole 6y ago
Singapore is anyway a totalitarian state, Lee Kuan Yew was basically a "benevolent" dictator, if there is such a thing.
- kmlx 6y ago
  true, but he did "create" an extraordinary city state.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    If it wasn't convenient for many players (from western to asian neighbors) to have a neutral tax-haven state in the area, it would have ended up like any small Asian/African/Latin American state.
    - cageface 6y ago
      I think of it as the Switzerland of Asia.
      - ignoramous 6y ago
        Switzerland of Asia would probably be the GCC countries: the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, and Bahrain. Singapore is more like Luxembourg/Monaco of Asia.
- mrkwse 6y ago
  I always recall William Gibson's description of the city-state as 'Disneyland with the Death Penalty'. The accompanying 1993 article for those who haven't seen it previously: https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/
  - k3nt0456 6y ago
    It wouldn't be a post about Singapore without someone bringing up the 27 year old article
- 6y ago
jbergler 6y ago
The New Zealand app is local storage only (at least that’s how it’s marketed, I’m not sure if this has been validated by a third party) https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-resources-and-tools/nz-covid-tracer-app/privacy-and-security-nz-covid-tracer https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/...
- throwaw999 6y ago
  And how would you know if there was a backdoor that allows the government to pull anyone's data? Even if the app is validated by reliable third party in current version, there's no mechanism stopping a malicious update in few months. Once it's mandatory to have such app it's game over. Doesn't matter what algorithm is being used, doesn't matter who developed it. It's insanely easy to abuse this. The government will simply deny there's any sort of backdoor and gaslight people who say otherwise.
blackrock 6y ago
Well, according to Google’s former CEO, Eric Schmidt: If you have nothing to hide, then you don’t need to worry about your privacy. Edit: I’m getting downvoted. But I wrote this as a warning: that if you don’t value your privacy, then others, will make sure that you have no privacy.
fossuser 6y ago
One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN). As a result you now see dumber, less effective, less privacy conscious contact tracing in effect or governments relying on data brokers (all the other apps that collect and resell your data to third parties and are not opt-out). It’s a shame. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and-google-partner-on-covid-19-contact-tracing-technology/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and-google-part... https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing
- verroq 6y ago
  Google and Apple will happily deliver all your information to the government when it becomes their legal obligation. Are we so naive to believe that if only we adopted their “privacy conscious” solution, there won’t be less privacy focused solutions preferred by the government? Or that their solution won’t be forced to change to meet their legal requirements?
  - fossuser 6y ago
    > “ misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN).” Your comment is case-in-point the kind of knee-jerk response that I was talking about. Edit: You added the second part after I’d already responded. They developed a good model to do large scale contact tracing in a privacy conscious way. People rejected this with vague suggestions like your comment about how it could be changed to be the opposite of what they’ve developed. Most people didn’t understand how it worked at all or why the design was good. As a result, worse less-privacy preserving methods are used.
    - verroq 6y ago
      If they can be forced to change whatever implementation they have by the government then it helps no one. It’s just giving them more information on top of all their existing data they already have on you.
djbebs 6y ago
Same in germany
throwaw999 6y ago
Can't wait until few years down we learn this data has been abused to harass political opponents in some way. Or when someone runs experiment to pull everyone's data and use ML to predict crimes (Minority Report style). It's done, we are never escaping the "sanitary" regime (just as we never got back to world pre-2001 despite extensive war on terror).
867-5309 6y ago
sort of related, but there is an open database over at WiGLE.net which has WiFi and Bluetooth MAC addresses stored with timestamps and GPS coordinates so, if you were within range of a device scanning wireless bands at a certain time in a certain place, light forensic analysis of your phone, wearables, car, etc. could place you in the vicinity of a crime with up to dozens of times the resolution of mobile network tracking you bought the burner phone, the burner SIM card, disposed of them by ..burning, but drat! that blasted Fitbit got you fingered and that's just one example of open involuntary surveillance. scanners can be small, cheap and housed anywhere with minimal electrical power. in urban areas it would be trivial to track permanently and store indefinitely someone's minute-by-minute position, especially in conjunction with known CCTV blindspots

146 points by acekingspade 6y ago

ainiriand 6y ago

It should say 'contact' instead of contract.

acekingspade 6y ago
Thanks. Fixed.

wyxuan 6y ago

According to this article (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53146360 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53146360) the Singapore contact tracing app works the same way the iOS and Android do, so no location tracking. From my read of the situation, there is some worry that activists might be cracked down upon.

acekingspade 6y ago
The difference is that Apple/Google contact tracing gives the user control over their data. Singapore's app works differently. Once someone's app picks up your signal, it's logged on their device and there's no way to delete it. The data is handed over to the authorities who have a list of everyone that they interacted with. Source: https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/apple-google-contact-tracing-system-not-effective-for-singapore-vivian-balakrishnan https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/apple-google-contact-...
- ValentineC 6y ago
  > Once someone's app picks up your signal, it's logged on their device and there's no way to delete it. Unless they've changed the schema, it should be just a SQLite database [1]. Most people with some competence at app development should be able to access the data file on their (Android) phones, and delete any rows which might prove troublesome. They could also just uninstall the app and wipe all data if they want. [1] https://medium.com/@frankvolkel/tracetogether-under-the-hood-7d5e509aeb5d https://medium.com/@frankvolkel/tracetogether-under-the-hood...
howlgarnish 6y ago
Activists are already cracked down plenty. Here's one currently under criminal investigation for holding up a sign with a smiley face (and nothing else) on it: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55068007 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-55068007

ignoramous 6y ago

Singapore is a surveillance state. Don't be fooled by its corporate friendliness and general societal progress. The government is every bit authoritarian which at this point increasingly looks like a euphemism for totalitarian. https://www.aristeon.net/2019/04/singapore-as-pioneer-of-capitalist.html https://www.aristeon.net/2019/04/singapore-as-pioneer-of-cap...

mparramon 6y ago
>Singapore’s parliamentary political system has been dominated by the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) and the family of current prime minister Lee Hsien Loong since 1959. The electoral and legal framework that the PAP has constructed allows for some political pluralism, but it constrains the growth of credible opposition parties and limits freedoms of expression, assembly, and association. https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2020 https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/202...
jesterson 6y ago
Corporate friendliness is not a disguise. It's needed to sustain the surveillance state cashflow. As for general societal progress, I am really not sure what are you talking about. There is no progress whatsoever.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > There is no progress whatsoever. Economic progress is a thing. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/singapore/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/singapore/overview > Singapore is a high-income economy with a gross national income of US$54,530 per capita, as of 2017. The country provides one of the world’s most business-friendly regulatory environment for local entrepreneurs and is ranked among the world’s most competitive economies. > In the decades after independence, Singapore rapidly developed from a low-income country to a high-income country. GDP growth in the city-state has been amongst the world’s highest, at an average of 7.7% since independence and topping 9.2% in the first 25 years.
  - 6y ago

jesterson 6y ago

That was expected from the very beginning. Government will collect as much data as possible citing medical reasons and then use the data as it pleases saying since we collect, we are free to use as we want (citing again some blah-blah about public benefits). What's surprising is that they disclose it. Perhaps he just wasnt prepared for the question

powerapple 6y ago
You have some data in the hands of any government, and once you have a judge's approval, the data will be obtained by the authority regardless where you are. It makes sense that the data should be stored on your devices only. If a criminal is caught with his phone, the data can still be obtained by the police (the same as phone records for example), and it can still be useful for criminal investigation, and normal citizen don't have to worry about their data. It is actually achievable with Google and Apple's approach. And I think it was a genuine answer. This is a reply to MP, not a random reporter on streets.
- jesterson 6y ago
  I believe you're missing the point. At first, they explain the information is collected solely for medical reasons. Now they say they can use it as they please. Don't you see fallacy here? I am sure it was a genuine answer - that's why I was surprised. Usually those things are sugar covered.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >At first, they explain the information is collected solely for medical reasons. Now they say they can use it as they please. Don't you see fallacy here? Technically not a fallacy (as there's no logical fault in what they said). Just falling back on a promise to the public.
    - hagibborim 6y ago
      It's not a logical fallacy, but it's still a fallacy.

malka 6y ago

Surprising. It seems usually a bad idea to trust a government.

kasperni 6y ago
That really depends on where you are in the world.
- tehlike 6y ago
  Not really. It might be good now, but no guarantees that it will stay that way. Principle of least privilege and data should be the norm but sadly it never is.
  - kasperni 6y ago
    > Not really. It might be good now, but no guarantees that it will stay that way. By that definition there really aren't any entities that you can trust. Including family, friends, etc.
    - malka 6y ago
      You cannot compare individual, and abstract entities such as states. Humans feel empathy. States (and corporations) only follow interests.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - slg 6y ago
        >Humans feel empathy. States (and corporations) only follow interests. This is such a bizarre statement to me. States and corporations are made of people. For the states and corporations to lack empathy it means the people controlling them are lacking empathy.
        6y ago

poxwole 6y ago

Singapore is anyway a totalitarian state, Lee Kuan Yew was basically a "benevolent" dictator, if there is such a thing.

kmlx 6y ago
true, but he did "create" an extraordinary city state.
- coldtea 6y ago
  If it wasn't convenient for many players (from western to asian neighbors) to have a neutral tax-haven state in the area, it would have ended up like any small Asian/African/Latin American state.
  - cageface 6y ago
    I think of it as the Switzerland of Asia.
    - ignoramous 6y ago
      Switzerland of Asia would probably be the GCC countries: the UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, and Bahrain. Singapore is more like Luxembourg/Monaco of Asia.
mrkwse 6y ago
I always recall William Gibson's description of the city-state as 'Disneyland with the Death Penalty'. The accompanying 1993 article for those who haven't seen it previously: https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/
- k3nt0456 6y ago
  It wouldn't be a post about Singapore without someone bringing up the 27 year old article
6y ago

jbergler 6y ago

The New Zealand app is local storage only (at least that’s how it’s marketed, I’m not sure if this has been validated by a third party) https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-resources-and-tools/nz-covid-tracer-app/privacy-and-security-nz-covid-tracer https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/...

throwaw999 6y ago
And how would you know if there was a backdoor that allows the government to pull anyone's data? Even if the app is validated by reliable third party in current version, there's no mechanism stopping a malicious update in few months. Once it's mandatory to have such app it's game over. Doesn't matter what algorithm is being used, doesn't matter who developed it. It's insanely easy to abuse this. The government will simply deny there's any sort of backdoor and gaslight people who say otherwise.

blackrock 6y ago

Well, according to Google’s former CEO, Eric Schmidt: If you have nothing to hide, then you don’t need to worry about your privacy. Edit: I’m getting downvoted. But I wrote this as a warning: that if you don’t value your privacy, then others, will make sure that you have no privacy.

fossuser 6y ago

One thing that drives me crazy about this is that Apple and Google partnered to come up with a brilliant Bluetooth solution to contact tracing right at the beginning of the pandemic. It was privacy first, well designed, and it works. It was hamstrung by being opt-in instead of opt-out, relying on state level cooperation and misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN). As a result you now see dumber, less effective, less privacy conscious contact tracing in effect or governments relying on data brokers (all the other apps that collect and resell your data to third parties and are not opt-out). It’s a shame. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and-google-partner-on-covid-19-contact-tracing-technology/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/04/apple-and-google-part... https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing https://covid19.apple.com/contacttracing

verroq 6y ago
Google and Apple will happily deliver all your information to the government when it becomes their legal obligation. Are we so naive to believe that if only we adopted their “privacy conscious” solution, there won’t be less privacy focused solutions preferred by the government? Or that their solution won’t be forced to change to meet their legal requirements?
- fossuser 6y ago
  > “ misunderstood by people who didn’t even attempt to try to understand it (including here on HN).” Your comment is case-in-point the kind of knee-jerk response that I was talking about. Edit: You added the second part after I’d already responded. They developed a good model to do large scale contact tracing in a privacy conscious way. People rejected this with vague suggestions like your comment about how it could be changed to be the opposite of what they’ve developed. Most people didn’t understand how it worked at all or why the design was good. As a result, worse less-privacy preserving methods are used.
  - verroq 6y ago
    If they can be forced to change whatever implementation they have by the government then it helps no one. It’s just giving them more information on top of all their existing data they already have on you.

djbebs 6y ago

Same in germany

throwaw999 6y ago

Can't wait until few years down we learn this data has been abused to harass political opponents in some way. Or when someone runs experiment to pull everyone's data and use ML to predict crimes (Minority Report style). It's done, we are never escaping the "sanitary" regime (just as we never got back to world pre-2001 despite extensive war on terror).

867-5309 6y ago

sort of related, but there is an open database over at WiGLE.net which has WiFi and Bluetooth MAC addresses stored with timestamps and GPS coordinates so, if you were within range of a device scanning wireless bands at a certain time in a certain place, light forensic analysis of your phone, wearables, car, etc. could place you in the vicinity of a crime with up to dozens of times the resolution of mobile network tracking you bought the burner phone, the burner SIM card, disposed of them by ..burning, but drat! that blasted Fitbit got you fingered and that's just one example of open involuntary surveillance. scanners can be small, cheap and housed anywhere with minimal electrical power. in urban areas it would be trivial to track permanently and store indefinitely someone's minute-by-minute position, especially in conjunction with known CCTV blindspots