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I mean, good for the app, but at this point this really makes my blood boil. Each month, I use several hundred different "apps" (broader meaning)- how many of

I mean, good for the app, but at this point this really makes my blood boil. Each month, I use several hundred different "apps" (broader meaning)- how many of those are written by a two-person teams in Iraq or Kazakhstan who do not have thousands of monthly Medium readers? How many of your cache cleaners, debuggers, flashlights and mac utility managers are written by some kid in Northern England who never even heard of HN? Every time somebody writes a "my app got finally restored :)" post hundreds or thousands of equally good and legit pieces of software get thrown into the abyss - and why? Because the author speaks no English, has no network, does not tweet enough. What a shitty reason. In the long run, this makes the internet and tech culture as a whole more and more "Silicon Valley" and less and less diverse - and plain worse. Just because FAANG - the guys supposedly at the spearhead of AI innovation and diversity - cannot be bothered to moderate, except when there is a PR thread. I consider that quite the disgrace.

gonzo41 6y ago
Do you own an Iphone and do you fawn over other Mac hardware? Because I think you can only talk to them via the money you spend elsewhere.
- UweSchmidt 6y ago
  "Voting with the dollar" does not generally work to change corporate behaviour because of oligopols, a multitude of issues and lack of transparency. A user might want to "talk to them" over privacy (buy Apple?) or "talk to them" over App censorship (boycott?).
- subaquamille 6y ago
  OP is complaining that social inequality impacts expression equality, and you suggest him to vote with his money ? Seems counter productive.
  - gonzo41 6y ago
    I guess I was replying to him, but meant the general point. As long as people still treat Mac products as something that they want to be apart of they give a free pass to the behavior. Sure, speaking out does something, but not buying Apple tech does more to effect change. Or maybe it's too late. Apple is so rich and so big, this is just people being ground up in the gears of bureaucracy.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >I guess I was replying to him, but meant the general point. As long as people still treat Mac products as something that they want to be apart of they give a free pass to the behavior. That sounds like "if you don't like how this country is run, immigrate elsewhere" - used usually by right wingers. How about people liking other aspects of the country (or, in this case, liking the OS, the hardware, the ecosystem, and so on) and considering them worth staying over the alternatives? Should they move to what they consider a sub-par platform to "make a point" about some App Store policies or some other such thing? And if most people are fine even with those things (e.g. could not give less fucks how the country is run as long as they're doing ok or don't care about some App Store faults) how is small scale immigration/skipping platform wont get lost in the noise? Boycotting companies is only a real tool when there are very heavy issues at stake, and millions of people agree on it, and also they thing there are perfectly fine alternatives for their use cases. Easy to boycott Nike when there's 100 sneaker brands that will do. How about improving the country/platform in other ways? Including publishing opinions, pressure groups, shaming when necessary, and so on.
      - gonzo41 6y ago
        >How about improving the country/platform in other ways? Including publishing opinions, pressure groups, shaming when necessary, and so on. All of those are optional for Apple to consider, not giving them money sends a signal they won't ignore.
        coldtea 6y ago
        This argument is already covered, let me re-iterate clearer: (a) this just sends a fuzzy signal they can easily ignore (b) for the signal to not be fuzzy needs the coordination of millions (good luck) (c) those millions will also hurt themselves in the process, assuming they otherwise like the platform and prefer using it over others, their complaints about it aside (e.g. I needs people to go like: "Yeah, sure, lemme change the OS and hardware I love because the App Store is not managed well or there's this or that other flow, great idea, that will show them!") [1] (d) ...and even then the signal will still be fuzzy enough ("Hmm, many people left the platform. Was it because we don't have enough color options for our laptops or because we mistreated some app developers?"). [1] Obviously people who have major qualms with Apple (as opposed to minor) would easily leave/have already left. But those are not the majority of people using and liking Apple products that gives the company top satisfaction ratings every year for example. Those would be those that dislike Apple or its current product line, not those that merely want to punish it for this or that issue (e.g. App Store policies).
- blackbrokkoli 6y ago
  I don't, and this is not really an Apple problem - you can see the same on YouTube, Steam, gPlay, Windows Store, PayPal, Facebook Marketplace and whatever else. But I agree with you: Stopping to view tech giants as some kind of godking would be a nice first step, as a society.
  - amelius 6y ago
    Sadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
bzb6 6y ago
If you have no network it’s because nobody cares about your application. Developing a widely used application will make a network of its own. In any case all of this is known of the Apple ecosystem. If you don’t like it then go develop for Windows.
- sdflhasjd 6y ago
  There's no prerequisite on having a popular Medium blog, Twitter, etc for having lots of users. Applications have a large network, but little media presence. Also, you're never going to get any network if Apple never approved your app in the place...
- blackbrokkoli 6y ago
  I mean you could also say "If you get thrown into jail unjustly and have nobody to advocate for you that just means that nobody cares for you at a person" and be right in the same way - that does not mean that this system is particular good and everyone should be proud of it. Polemic metaphors aside, I don't think the relationship you propose (quality app > network > you get help) is very consistent or reliable. Say I make an app for soccer moms with millions of users - do you think I would get significant Twitter support from my customer base if my app went away? Conversely, don't you think I can get the radicalized 50 customers of my pro-genocide to scream very loud on Twitter for weeks? This does not even touch on founders/devs who want to stay anonymous for whatever reasons and a lot of other edge cases. It is a shitty system.
gameswithgo 6y ago
we all need to quit supporting monopoly store models. apple won’t ever stop as long as it makes them money to continue
- lemonspat 6y ago
  I want to agree with you, but I'm not going to use Cydia on my phone for my banking apps. At least the Apple app store makes some effort (liability is the wrong word) to make sure that my banking apps aren't fraudulent or scammer apps. I have no such trust when downloading apps from alternate places
  - v0x 6y ago
    And that's great - the App Store serves a hugely useful purpose - but you shouldn't need to rely on an iPhone vulnerability and a jailbreak to opt out.
    - zepto 6y ago
      You don’t have to. You can get your banking app on Android.
  - NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
    But why would you have concerns downloading a banking app directly from your bank? You have trusted them with your money, after all... With apple, you can't install and run software even from sources you trust, outside of apple. Apple policy could be described as an insult to the scientific principles that led to computing, let alone user rights to run software on devices they own (somewhat established in courts). "In the famous Apple v. Samsung lawsuit, Apple even claimed ownership of geometric shapes such as rectangles with rounded corners", cited from The crisis of intellectual monopoly capitalism, Ugo Pagano
    - zepto 6y ago
      How would you know you were getting it directly from your bank?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
zepto 6y ago
“hundreds or thousands of equally good and legit pieces of software get thrown into the abyss” What actual evidence do we have for this? We know about edge cases that do make the media. We know about cases that make the media but which don’t get much sympathy. Is there any actual evidence that hundreds of useful app are being discarded?
- mayankkaizen 6y ago
  What would be your point if you know about evidence? I mean I've read countless stories of app/software being thrown into abyss here on HN itself. Does Apple release any such data? Where does a guy with no network report to about such incidents? Please don't argue for the sake of argument.
  - zepto 6y ago
    “ I mean I've read countless stories of app/software being thrown into abyss here on HN itself” Really? - I don’t remember the last time I read one. There are a few a year where there is a serious debate. Certainly plenty of people dislike the rules, but that isn’t the same as Apple just throwing away good apps. I think the statement that hundreds of good apps are being thrown into the abyss is bullshit. You are using the absence of evidence to support a strong claim. We really don’t know whether there is any truth to it or not. Given how many people seem to think this is such a problem, I’m surprised nobody has aggregated the stories.
    - mayankkaizen 6y ago
      I haven't made any claim. I just said I've read countless such stories. But I'm too lazy to list them all here. >I think the statement that hundreds of good apps are being thrown into the abyss is bullshit Nobody cares about what you think. You, too, could have refuted the claim with data. Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
      - zepto 6y ago
        > Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. This is absolutely true. I can’t prove there aren’t hundreds of apps being discarded. However you have now admitted that there is no evidence that there are. I challenged a poster who was making this claim as if it was a fact. It isn’t a fact, as you now agree. I think it’s important to call bullshit for what it is.

gonzo41 6y ago

Do you own an Iphone and do you fawn over other Mac hardware? Because I think you can only talk to them via the money you spend elsewhere.

UweSchmidt 6y ago
"Voting with the dollar" does not generally work to change corporate behaviour because of oligopols, a multitude of issues and lack of transparency. A user might want to "talk to them" over privacy (buy Apple?) or "talk to them" over App censorship (boycott?).
subaquamille 6y ago
OP is complaining that social inequality impacts expression equality, and you suggest him to vote with his money ? Seems counter productive.
- gonzo41 6y ago
  I guess I was replying to him, but meant the general point. As long as people still treat Mac products as something that they want to be apart of they give a free pass to the behavior. Sure, speaking out does something, but not buying Apple tech does more to effect change. Or maybe it's too late. Apple is so rich and so big, this is just people being ground up in the gears of bureaucracy.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >I guess I was replying to him, but meant the general point. As long as people still treat Mac products as something that they want to be apart of they give a free pass to the behavior. That sounds like "if you don't like how this country is run, immigrate elsewhere" - used usually by right wingers. How about people liking other aspects of the country (or, in this case, liking the OS, the hardware, the ecosystem, and so on) and considering them worth staying over the alternatives? Should they move to what they consider a sub-par platform to "make a point" about some App Store policies or some other such thing? And if most people are fine even with those things (e.g. could not give less fucks how the country is run as long as they're doing ok or don't care about some App Store faults) how is small scale immigration/skipping platform wont get lost in the noise? Boycotting companies is only a real tool when there are very heavy issues at stake, and millions of people agree on it, and also they thing there are perfectly fine alternatives for their use cases. Easy to boycott Nike when there's 100 sneaker brands that will do. How about improving the country/platform in other ways? Including publishing opinions, pressure groups, shaming when necessary, and so on.
    - gonzo41 6y ago
      >How about improving the country/platform in other ways? Including publishing opinions, pressure groups, shaming when necessary, and so on. All of those are optional for Apple to consider, not giving them money sends a signal they won't ignore.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        This argument is already covered, let me re-iterate clearer: (a) this just sends a fuzzy signal they can easily ignore (b) for the signal to not be fuzzy needs the coordination of millions (good luck) (c) those millions will also hurt themselves in the process, assuming they otherwise like the platform and prefer using it over others, their complaints about it aside (e.g. I needs people to go like: "Yeah, sure, lemme change the OS and hardware I love because the App Store is not managed well or there's this or that other flow, great idea, that will show them!") [1] (d) ...and even then the signal will still be fuzzy enough ("Hmm, many people left the platform. Was it because we don't have enough color options for our laptops or because we mistreated some app developers?"). [1] Obviously people who have major qualms with Apple (as opposed to minor) would easily leave/have already left. But those are not the majority of people using and liking Apple products that gives the company top satisfaction ratings every year for example. Those would be those that dislike Apple or its current product line, not those that merely want to punish it for this or that issue (e.g. App Store policies).
blackbrokkoli 6y ago
I don't, and this is not really an Apple problem - you can see the same on YouTube, Steam, gPlay, Windows Store, PayPal, Facebook Marketplace and whatever else. But I agree with you: Stopping to view tech giants as some kind of godking would be a nice first step, as a society.
- amelius 6y ago
  Sadly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

bzb6 6y ago

If you have no network it’s because nobody cares about your application. Developing a widely used application will make a network of its own. In any case all of this is known of the Apple ecosystem. If you don’t like it then go develop for Windows.

sdflhasjd 6y ago
There's no prerequisite on having a popular Medium blog, Twitter, etc for having lots of users. Applications have a large network, but little media presence. Also, you're never going to get any network if Apple never approved your app in the place...
blackbrokkoli 6y ago
I mean you could also say "If you get thrown into jail unjustly and have nobody to advocate for you that just means that nobody cares for you at a person" and be right in the same way - that does not mean that this system is particular good and everyone should be proud of it. Polemic metaphors aside, I don't think the relationship you propose (quality app > network > you get help) is very consistent or reliable. Say I make an app for soccer moms with millions of users - do you think I would get significant Twitter support from my customer base if my app went away? Conversely, don't you think I can get the radicalized 50 customers of my pro-genocide to scream very loud on Twitter for weeks? This does not even touch on founders/devs who want to stay anonymous for whatever reasons and a lot of other edge cases. It is a shitty system.

gameswithgo 6y ago

we all need to quit supporting monopoly store models. apple won’t ever stop as long as it makes them money to continue

lemonspat 6y ago
I want to agree with you, but I'm not going to use Cydia on my phone for my banking apps. At least the Apple app store makes some effort (liability is the wrong word) to make sure that my banking apps aren't fraudulent or scammer apps. I have no such trust when downloading apps from alternate places
- v0x 6y ago
  And that's great - the App Store serves a hugely useful purpose - but you shouldn't need to rely on an iPhone vulnerability and a jailbreak to opt out.
  - zepto 6y ago
    You don’t have to. You can get your banking app on Android.
- NotPavlovsDog 6y ago
  But why would you have concerns downloading a banking app directly from your bank? You have trusted them with your money, after all... With apple, you can't install and run software even from sources you trust, outside of apple. Apple policy could be described as an insult to the scientific principles that led to computing, let alone user rights to run software on devices they own (somewhat established in courts). "In the famous Apple v. Samsung lawsuit, Apple even claimed ownership of geometric shapes such as rectangles with rounded corners", cited from The crisis of intellectual monopoly capitalism, Ugo Pagano
  - zepto 6y ago
    How would you know you were getting it directly from your bank?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

zepto 6y ago

“hundreds or thousands of equally good and legit pieces of software get thrown into the abyss” What actual evidence do we have for this? We know about edge cases that do make the media. We know about cases that make the media but which don’t get much sympathy. Is there any actual evidence that hundreds of useful app are being discarded?

mayankkaizen 6y ago
What would be your point if you know about evidence? I mean I've read countless stories of app/software being thrown into abyss here on HN itself. Does Apple release any such data? Where does a guy with no network report to about such incidents? Please don't argue for the sake of argument.
- zepto 6y ago
  “ I mean I've read countless stories of app/software being thrown into abyss here on HN itself” Really? - I don’t remember the last time I read one. There are a few a year where there is a serious debate. Certainly plenty of people dislike the rules, but that isn’t the same as Apple just throwing away good apps. I think the statement that hundreds of good apps are being thrown into the abyss is bullshit. You are using the absence of evidence to support a strong claim. We really don’t know whether there is any truth to it or not. Given how many people seem to think this is such a problem, I’m surprised nobody has aggregated the stories.
  - mayankkaizen 6y ago
    I haven't made any claim. I just said I've read countless such stories. But I'm too lazy to list them all here. >I think the statement that hundreds of good apps are being thrown into the abyss is bullshit Nobody cares about what you think. You, too, could have refuted the claim with data. Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
    - zepto 6y ago
      > Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. This is absolutely true. I can’t prove there aren’t hundreds of apps being discarded. However you have now admitted that there is no evidence that there are. I challenged a poster who was making this claim as if it was a fact. It isn’t a fact, as you now agree. I think it’s important to call bullshit for what it is.