3 ms·

This kind of garbage is why open source software can't compete with the likes of Google. I started out reading this comment chain thinking "great, I'm going to

by creato 6y ago

This kind of garbage is why open source software can't compete with the likes of Google. I started out reading this comment chain thinking "great, I'm going to try maps.me". 10 seconds later, I've learned I can't just try it, I have to find the right fork, of which I see several, each with people mentioning serious caveats. And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster?

ptero 6y ago
There are benefits to dictatorships in software, which can help avoid fragmentation and give customers "the one right choice". However, such dictatorships tend to falter and fail as the desire to serve the masses with a simple, yet effective option morphs into disregard of user preferences and rent seeking as those users are locked in. Google is a powerhouse today, but that power is built on a lot of the open source software (e.g., Android) that you claim cannot compete. I am willing to bet a significant sum of money that within the next 10 years Google (which by now forgot its "do not be evil" origins) will be successfully challenged on both the search and the mapping fronts by an upstart leveraging some open source software. My 2c.
Brian_K_White 6y ago
Proprietary software doesn't have the same or worse garbage? At least this way when the "vendor" went bad, the users were only annoyed instead of fucked. I'll take "this kind of garbage" Every Single Day to the end of time.
MayeulC 6y ago
Come on, this has nothing to do with it being open source, rather the contrary. The same thing could happen (and has) with proprietary software, and you are then out of luck. With open source? Use the last known good version, fix wat you need to, even if you are the only one person on earth interested in that piece of software. Maintain it. Or just find someone else who is doing it (that's a "fork"). I've stopped using a lot of proprietary software and apps due to this, though examples are fading from my memory. On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer and Touchpal that went down the Adware hole. Nowadays I only use FLOSS. Not even GAPPS. OSMAnd (which I donate to) is pretty nice and featurefull, it suits me as a maps power user, but it can be a bit daunting. There used to be a maps.me fork on F-Droid, but it was recently removed: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/diffs https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/d... Looks like the maps.me community is reorganizing, and hopefully it will re-emerge stronger and more resilient that it was before. Also, lessons learned with this might be useful to other projects. > And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster? This is the reason why you should pick a project with strong guarantees: https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian leads to https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution Only running open source software is my way of making sure I can escape lock-in and always have a way out.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  > On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer […] that went down the Adware hole. The paid version of ES File Explorer is better than ever. (Though sadly neither version seems to be available on F-Droid…) Free software is free as in freedom, not (necessarily) as in free beer. Developers have to eat too : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    I agree, and I bought plenty of both paid and open source apps in the past. But I find that having the source code offers stronger guarantees than a receipt (some paid-for proprietary software also let me down, if only for becoming abandonware), that's why I only use proprietary software if it's in a comoditized niche with plenty of interoperable alternatives. For instance, I bought every "simple mobile tool" app (from Tibor Kaputa) on the play store (even though I don't use Google Play, at least they are in my family library), as well as OSMAnd plus its plugins. I also bought some open source games on Steam, such as mindustry. Krita is there as well, but I prefer donating directly to KDE. I am totally in favor of paying devs, though I generally prefer to make anonymous donations, trough liberapay (unfortunately not tax-deductible) for instance, as a way to cut the middle-man, (I tend to spend more than 600€ a year on free software donations, which is not negligible to me: almost half a monthly salary). I don't really understand your point, to be honest: ES is "abolutely proprietary" as far as I know, so it won't be available on F-droid. I was trying to come up with examples of proprietary software that changed under me. Source access is a must for me, this is about freedom, not price. I also have trust issues with proprietary software.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      > I don't really understand your point It was first about the paid version of ES File Explorer being top-notch (unlike the ad-funded version), which could have mislead some people. Perhaps I shouldn't have put it in the same message as the other point.
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
Maps.me isn't really "open source software". It's a commercial entity and one of the most popular mapping applications in the world. (Definitely #1 for navigating on foot.) The point is that yeah, competing with Google in some field that isn't integral to Google's advertising business is quite possible and realistic. There are real-world examples.
- pfalcon 6y ago
  Never heard about it. Using OsmAnd for "on foot", bike, motorbike, car, train, flight, sail for 10 years or so.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  1) it is open source with at least Android app published under Apache-2.0 License ( https://github.com/mapsme/omim https://github.com/mapsme/omim is still up) 2) commercial entity often develop open source software, this dychotomy is false 3) mapy.cz is strictly superior for hiking, and for most of foot navigation (at least in my opinion)

by creato 6y ago

ptero 6y ago

There are benefits to dictatorships in software, which can help avoid fragmentation and give customers "the one right choice". However, such dictatorships tend to falter and fail as the desire to serve the masses with a simple, yet effective option morphs into disregard of user preferences and rent seeking as those users are locked in. Google is a powerhouse today, but that power is built on a lot of the open source software (e.g., Android) that you claim cannot compete. I am willing to bet a significant sum of money that within the next 10 years Google (which by now forgot its "do not be evil" origins) will be successfully challenged on both the search and the mapping fronts by an upstart leveraging some open source software. My 2c.

Brian_K_White 6y ago

Proprietary software doesn't have the same or worse garbage? At least this way when the "vendor" went bad, the users were only annoyed instead of fucked. I'll take "this kind of garbage" Every Single Day to the end of time.

MayeulC 6y ago

Come on, this has nothing to do with it being open source, rather the contrary. The same thing could happen (and has) with proprietary software, and you are then out of luck. With open source? Use the last known good version, fix wat you need to, even if you are the only one person on earth interested in that piece of software. Maintain it. Or just find someone else who is doing it (that's a "fork"). I've stopped using a lot of proprietary software and apps due to this, though examples are fading from my memory. On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer and Touchpal that went down the Adware hole. Nowadays I only use FLOSS. Not even GAPPS. OSMAnd (which I donate to) is pretty nice and featurefull, it suits me as a maps power user, but it can be a bit daunting. There used to be a maps.me fork on F-Droid, but it was recently removed: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/diffs https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/d... Looks like the maps.me community is reorganizing, and hopefully it will re-emerge stronger and more resilient that it was before. Also, lessons learned with this might be useful to other projects. > And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster? This is the reason why you should pick a project with strong guarantees: https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian leads to https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution Only running open source software is my way of making sure I can escape lock-in and always have a way out.

BlueTemplar 6y ago
> On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer […] that went down the Adware hole. The paid version of ES File Explorer is better than ever. (Though sadly neither version seems to be available on F-Droid…) Free software is free as in freedom, not (necessarily) as in free beer. Developers have to eat too : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
- MayeulC 6y ago
  I agree, and I bought plenty of both paid and open source apps in the past. But I find that having the source code offers stronger guarantees than a receipt (some paid-for proprietary software also let me down, if only for becoming abandonware), that's why I only use proprietary software if it's in a comoditized niche with plenty of interoperable alternatives. For instance, I bought every "simple mobile tool" app (from Tibor Kaputa) on the play store (even though I don't use Google Play, at least they are in my family library), as well as OSMAnd plus its plugins. I also bought some open source games on Steam, such as mindustry. Krita is there as well, but I prefer donating directly to KDE. I am totally in favor of paying devs, though I generally prefer to make anonymous donations, trough liberapay (unfortunately not tax-deductible) for instance, as a way to cut the middle-man, (I tend to spend more than 600€ a year on free software donations, which is not negligible to me: almost half a monthly salary). I don't really understand your point, to be honest: ES is "abolutely proprietary" as far as I know, so it won't be available on F-droid. I was trying to come up with examples of proprietary software that changed under me. Source access is a must for me, this is about freedom, not price. I also have trust issues with proprietary software.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    > I don't really understand your point It was first about the paid version of ES File Explorer being top-notch (unlike the ad-funded version), which could have mislead some people. Perhaps I shouldn't have put it in the same message as the other point.

otabdeveloper4 6y ago

Maps.me isn't really "open source software". It's a commercial entity and one of the most popular mapping applications in the world. (Definitely #1 for navigating on foot.) The point is that yeah, competing with Google in some field that isn't integral to Google's advertising business is quite possible and realistic. There are real-world examples.

pfalcon 6y ago
Never heard about it. Using OsmAnd for "on foot", bike, motorbike, car, train, flight, sail for 10 years or so.
matkoniecz 6y ago
1) it is open source with at least Android app published under Apache-2.0 License ( https://github.com/mapsme/omim https://github.com/mapsme/omim is still up) 2) commercial entity often develop open source software, this dychotomy is false 3) mapy.cz is strictly superior for hiking, and for most of foot navigation (at least in my opinion)