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correlation does not equal causation. Phone addiction or internet addiction is a symptom not a cause. People are escaping to the internet becuase of the world w

correlation does not equal causation. Phone addiction or internet addiction is a symptom not a cause. People are escaping to the internet becuase of the world we live in is cold. There is a new US marine commerical out that shows a kid wandering the street kind of lost in hyper interactive world. The commercial plays off of this internet addiction and data mining product selling. Then clips to them becoming a Marine and finding purpose. Its a good commercial because its actually something that is a problem and that the Marines do have an answer, although with a great cost. Brave New World predicted this. We are removed from community and it is scary so we find one on the internet and we go all in. The physical problems come with the fact that its not interactive but if there was a VR internet those could go away. That still wouldnt fix the problem that you might feel closer to someone across the world than someone right next to you. And that a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill eachother. My phone is that internet/phone addiction is not a problem its a solution. An escape from forever war all around us. Or you could join the Marines. I guess war is inescapable. Que the cranberries song.

temporama1 6y ago
> My phone is that internet/phone addiction is not a problem its a solution Funny that you've mistyped "phone" instead of "theory". Must be a Freudian phone.
seibelj 6y ago
Escapism is intensely popular, it’s behind the boom in video games, watching people stream themselves playing video games, super hero movies, scripted tv. OnlyFans let’s you have a quasi-partner who takes your money and gives you intimacy. Instant gratification, and if you don’t have what you want, just blame society for not giving it to you. What’s great is that if you are a hard worker and have a long time horizon, it’s never been easier to extract huge compensation. Wealthy people want to invest to make money without any effort, and learning hard stuff like computer science, mechanical engineering, biochemistry and pharma development, etc. takes a tough decade of study and practice to get skilled enough to really kill it. But once you are an expert you can produce actual stuff that matters and investors can’t find enough smart and talented people willing to actually do stuff, so the premium paid to those that can make entertainment, life saving drugs, productivity-increasing tech, and so on gets ever higher. Bet on making stuff for the Netflix box and drugs that keep fat people alive longer, and fun games that distract people from reality.
- lrobinovitch 6y ago
  I don't disagree with your take that escapism is popular, but this can partially be attributed to the capable people you reference building technology that exploits our psychology to encourage further escapism. I don't understand the desire to bet on things that would personally enrich you and your investments/companies but decrease overall wellbeing. The capable should build that which guides society towards connection and elevates collective goals, not exploit the exploitable.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    The market demands this stuff. If human nature is to be lazy, fat, desiring instant gratification, and blaming everyone else for their problems, then someone will fulfill it. I wrote a “hot take” above and am exaggerating, but I truly feel like the world we live in now makes it so easy to avoid discipline and hard choices. So those that accept that getting nice stuff takes effort and discipline will earn great dividends.
amelius 6y ago
> Its a good commercial because its actually something that is a problem and that the Marines do have an answer Perhaps we should bring back a year of mandatory military service. Or some other kind of mandatory community service.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Peace Corp or something like that. I can't remember the name of the gorup that was started during the depression that put people to work doing things like building the national parks and other type of things. These groups provided jobs, life experience outside what ever town you grew up in, and could be a good solve for today's situation.
  - gshubert17 6y ago
    CCC Civilian Conservation Corps
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- pueblito 6y ago
  We never HAD a year of mandatory military service to bring back
  - kingTug 6y ago
    I would quit my job and drop everything in my life to join a program like that. The Intercept did an episode on it over the summer and I got chills listening to it.
    - fwip 6y ago
      You can join the Peace Corps right now.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    Perhaps GP lives somewhere that did. It's definitely not an uncommon thing around the world.
aqme28 6y ago
> Phone addiction or internet addiction is a symptom not a cause Correlation does not imply causation, but that doesn't mean that it can't be causation.
- fsckboy 6y ago
  well ok, but while we are on the subject, we have no proof of any causation anywhere in the universe, all we have is the correlation that we've never seen (for example) gravity repel, only attract.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Not really true. If two things are strictly correlative, that means there is an additional factor causing both. If you eliminate all reasonable additional factors (by controlling variables), you can demonstrate causation. Arguing that there can be unknowable external factors behind everything is not very scientific. Identifying causal relationships involving humans is difficult due to the excessively multivariate nature of all our interactions, and by extension how difficult it is to "control" humans (as opposed to water, or a wheel). That does not mean it is impossible to ever demonstrate causation.
    - User23 6y ago
      Leibniz denies the existence of causation in his Monadology[1]. In short, everything acts solely according to its own nature without any interaction with anything else, but in a harmonious way that creates the illusion of causation. That strikes me as a bit far fetched, but it does show that accepting the existence of causation is a metaphysical choice and not necessary. [1] https://plato-philosophy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-Monadology-1714-by-Gottfried-Wilhelm-LEIBNIZ-1646-1716.pdf https://plato-philosophy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-...
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - 6y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
I agree except some things are actually addicting. Phones are dopamine slot machines that fit in your pocket so that you can't escape. I think it's both. People seek an escape and phone apps are extremely addicting.
- shawnz 6y ago
  Is it bad to feel rewarded for legitimately engaging your brain? Is it bad for something to be a "dopamine slot machine" if it's only because it actually allows you to consume knowledge more rapidly/efficiently?
  - paulryanrogers 6y ago
    I don't think so--if the activity fits your life and not the other way around. But that's just my opinion. Books and pen pals can be similarly problematic for some.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
    I don't think I've ever acquired deep knowledge or insight via my phone. It's all shallow junk food.
    - shawnz 6y ago
      Is that because of the nature of the technology or because of what users choose to seek out with it? Also consider that a big insight might come from many small insights
  - fy20 6y ago
    Addiction is sometimes described as something that is done repeatedly and is harmful. I can't get by without breathing, so I need to do that pretty often, but as it's not harmful, it's not an addiction. The answer to your question is it depends... I don't think there is anything wrong with playing a dopamine hitting game on a 10 minute bus ride home from work (it's no different than the buzz from a shot of espresso), but if you are spending so much time that you are harming yourself (physically or emotionally) then that's an addiction. There was a talk posted a few days ago here by Dr Gabor Mate about addiction: https://youtu.be/vMstO3U4sVw https://youtu.be/vMstO3U4sVw (Skip the 10 min intro, then watch at least the first hour) His views are very different from the mainstream US view of addiction being substance abuse that can be fixed by restricting access to the drugs.
Technically 6y ago
> correlation does not equal causation. Ok, but where is your argument that this is positive for mental health? Why show up half-assed? Brave new world is obviously a dystopia. > but if there was a VR internet those could go away. What the fuck? Are you serious or just have no clue how other humans work?
jodrellblank 6y ago
> "Brave New World predicted this. We are removed from community and it is scary so we find one on the internet and we go all in." That isn't how I remember Brave New World; it was about amusing ourselves to death with trivia instead of dealing with "important" things, but the sense of community in it was pretty strong - people grew up with and lived with the same local group of people, worked together, played Centrifugal Bumble-Puppy together, orgied together, and took soma to keep them all content. The main complaint they all had was why Bernard couldn't just be happy and join in the community. Brave New World celebrated the twist-reveal where Bernard learns that exile to Iceland isn't a gulag but is really joining a distant group of people who don't like the society and want to live their own way like he does. I'm never sure if that should be taken at face value, or if it was a lie and the place was really a prison camp, but let's assume it was an honest and accurate reveal - that would be the opposite of your complaint, Bernard was lost and scared at having no community, was pushed toward a remote one he might fit in, and the book is all about how great that is that he doesn't have to waste his life doing just what the people around him are doing and that he can feel closer aligned with a group across the world than someone right next to him, and should take advantage of that. > "An escape from forever war all around us" The forever war was 1984, and that's not about Winston joining the Marines to find meaning in his life, it's about using the two minutes' hate to reinforce tribe membership by uniting everyone against a hate figure/group, and the strong (IngSoc) beating down the weak (objectors) until everyone is stamped into the same shape (boot on human face / industrial machine moulding stamp), the reveal at the end of 1984 isn't that Winston joined the Marines and escaped the forever war like Bernard escaped the trivia, it's that Winston came to love Big Brother and agree with everything good that Big Brother is and was and always would be, it's the equivalent of Bernard taking the soma and blending into the society and agreeing it was right all along, it's one or other of your Maga hat and Antifa supporter becoming overwhelmingly dominant, the state enforcing it, and the other being subsumed by it and liking it until there isn't anything else. > "internet/phone addiction is not a problem its a solution. I guess war is inescapable." Hence the Yin-Yang forever circling each other. There's no solution to whether white or black is better, or whether matter or energy is better, or whether hot is better than cold, both books posit an end - one that is either agreeable or disagreeable to the reader, but an end nonetheless - real life doesn't have ends it has circles, loops, repeats, back and forths, changing fortunes, ups and downs, births and deaths. Maga hat and Antifa supporter both love their America, and their America doesn't include murdering thy neighbor. They might "want to kill each other" but each would like the other one realising how dumb they are and changing sides.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
scythe 6y ago
>And that a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill eachother. You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these people come to these ideologies because of the Internet, which leads to the hollowing-out of community coherence that you mention.
throwaway92389 6y ago
> a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill each other There's even a dedicated reddit for this fallacy. https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
m00x 6y ago
You say that correlation doesn't equal causation, then throw out theories with no research to back it up. Could you be a bit more scientific with your argument?
bumby 6y ago
>Marines do have an answer, although with a great cost. Do you mean an individual cost or societal cost? I think one of the ironies about the human condition is that we value things that we’ve sacrificed toward much more than the things we have not. E.g., Marines have esprit de corps in part because of their sacrifices not despite them. The strongest connections are often made through hardship. To think we can have that connection without a cost doesn’t seem congruent with how we’re wired
- friendlybus 6y ago
  The marines come with an individual cost that is frequently less valued than service in the army or airforce.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    What do you mean less valued? My impression is that the Marines are the most respected of the services. (I am not serving nor a veteran of any armed service).
    - friendlybus 6y ago
      I don't want to tell tales out of school or anything. I've met an ex-marine who suffered damage in training and stories from internet videos all corroborate the general story. The marines are the offensive branch, and the individuals get treated poorly. You get a lot of respect for your title, but other branches have a better quality of life and better jobs available. https://youtu.be/UMoLKLM8SMg https://youtu.be/UMoLKLM8SMg Fun story time by an ex-air force guy who was going to join up to the marines (4:30).
      - bumby 6y ago
        Counter to this anecdote, I’ve met a reasonable number of Air Force, Navy, and Army who retrospectively wished they joined the Marines. I’ve never met a Marine who wished they joined another branch (with the exception of when other branches offered even more difficult opportunities Marines didn’t, like before MARSOC was established)
meowster 6y ago
The US Marines recruiting commercial mentioned: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bCjEV75F2tM https://youtube.com/watch?v=bCjEV75F2tM
paulryanrogers 6y ago
> That still wouldnt fix the problem that you might feel closer to someone across the world than someone right next to you. Wait, is it a problem that some have remote friendships that are closer than those physically near them? If so why? Which isn't too say proximity is bad. It can be a relationship enhancer, and so can distance.
- ehnto 6y ago
  I think it was just an example of how little we can be connected to our local community. It's not bad in itself, and you can likely have both strong remote relationships and strong community ties at the same time.
kace91 6y ago
> And that a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill eachother. That Maga hat and antifa might not be as opposed in views if they talked to each other. The problem is that we've reduced friction for finding like minded people so far that it's not worth it to go through the unpleasantness of talking with strangers.
- ehnto 6y ago
  The platform also magnifies shallow thought from a minority of contributors. One of the signals we use to mediate our thoughts is how we think our cohorts feel about something, this is even more true for people without much critical thinking skill. An individual can have extreme views and end up inside an echochamber that makes them think they're in the company of millions when in reality it's just a handful of others (and probably some bot accounts).
xapata 6y ago
> Que [Helpfully] I believe you meant "cue." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cue https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cue

temporama1 6y ago

> My phone is that internet/phone addiction is not a problem its a solution Funny that you've mistyped "phone" instead of "theory". Must be a Freudian phone.

seibelj 6y ago

Escapism is intensely popular, it’s behind the boom in video games, watching people stream themselves playing video games, super hero movies, scripted tv. OnlyFans let’s you have a quasi-partner who takes your money and gives you intimacy. Instant gratification, and if you don’t have what you want, just blame society for not giving it to you. What’s great is that if you are a hard worker and have a long time horizon, it’s never been easier to extract huge compensation. Wealthy people want to invest to make money without any effort, and learning hard stuff like computer science, mechanical engineering, biochemistry and pharma development, etc. takes a tough decade of study and practice to get skilled enough to really kill it. But once you are an expert you can produce actual stuff that matters and investors can’t find enough smart and talented people willing to actually do stuff, so the premium paid to those that can make entertainment, life saving drugs, productivity-increasing tech, and so on gets ever higher. Bet on making stuff for the Netflix box and drugs that keep fat people alive longer, and fun games that distract people from reality.

lrobinovitch 6y ago
I don't disagree with your take that escapism is popular, but this can partially be attributed to the capable people you reference building technology that exploits our psychology to encourage further escapism. I don't understand the desire to bet on things that would personally enrich you and your investments/companies but decrease overall wellbeing. The capable should build that which guides society towards connection and elevates collective goals, not exploit the exploitable.
- seibelj 6y ago
  The market demands this stuff. If human nature is to be lazy, fat, desiring instant gratification, and blaming everyone else for their problems, then someone will fulfill it. I wrote a “hot take” above and am exaggerating, but I truly feel like the world we live in now makes it so easy to avoid discipline and hard choices. So those that accept that getting nice stuff takes effort and discipline will earn great dividends.

amelius 6y ago

> Its a good commercial because its actually something that is a problem and that the Marines do have an answer Perhaps we should bring back a year of mandatory military service. Or some other kind of mandatory community service.

dylan604 6y ago
Peace Corp or something like that. I can't remember the name of the gorup that was started during the depression that put people to work doing things like building the national parks and other type of things. These groups provided jobs, life experience outside what ever town you grew up in, and could be a good solve for today's situation.
- gshubert17 6y ago
  CCC Civilian Conservation Corps
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
pueblito 6y ago
We never HAD a year of mandatory military service to bring back
- kingTug 6y ago
  I would quit my job and drop everything in my life to join a program like that. The Intercept did an episode on it over the summer and I got chills listening to it.
  - fwip 6y ago
    You can join the Peace Corps right now.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  Perhaps GP lives somewhere that did. It's definitely not an uncommon thing around the world.

aqme28 6y ago

> Phone addiction or internet addiction is a symptom not a cause Correlation does not imply causation, but that doesn't mean that it can't be causation.

fsckboy 6y ago
well ok, but while we are on the subject, we have no proof of any causation anywhere in the universe, all we have is the correlation that we've never seen (for example) gravity repel, only attract.
- fastball 6y ago
  Not really true. If two things are strictly correlative, that means there is an additional factor causing both. If you eliminate all reasonable additional factors (by controlling variables), you can demonstrate causation. Arguing that there can be unknowable external factors behind everything is not very scientific. Identifying causal relationships involving humans is difficult due to the excessively multivariate nature of all our interactions, and by extension how difficult it is to "control" humans (as opposed to water, or a wheel). That does not mean it is impossible to ever demonstrate causation.
  - User23 6y ago
    Leibniz denies the existence of causation in his Monadology[1]. In short, everything acts solely according to its own nature without any interaction with anything else, but in a harmonious way that creates the illusion of causation. That strikes me as a bit far fetched, but it does show that accepting the existence of causation is a metaphysical choice and not necessary. [1] https://plato-philosophy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-Monadology-1714-by-Gottfried-Wilhelm-LEIBNIZ-1646-1716.pdf https://plato-philosophy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - 6y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago

I agree except some things are actually addicting. Phones are dopamine slot machines that fit in your pocket so that you can't escape. I think it's both. People seek an escape and phone apps are extremely addicting.

shawnz 6y ago
Is it bad to feel rewarded for legitimately engaging your brain? Is it bad for something to be a "dopamine slot machine" if it's only because it actually allows you to consume knowledge more rapidly/efficiently?
- paulryanrogers 6y ago
  I don't think so--if the activity fits your life and not the other way around. But that's just my opinion. Books and pen pals can be similarly problematic for some.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  I don't think I've ever acquired deep knowledge or insight via my phone. It's all shallow junk food.
  - shawnz 6y ago
    Is that because of the nature of the technology or because of what users choose to seek out with it? Also consider that a big insight might come from many small insights
- fy20 6y ago
  Addiction is sometimes described as something that is done repeatedly and is harmful. I can't get by without breathing, so I need to do that pretty often, but as it's not harmful, it's not an addiction. The answer to your question is it depends... I don't think there is anything wrong with playing a dopamine hitting game on a 10 minute bus ride home from work (it's no different than the buzz from a shot of espresso), but if you are spending so much time that you are harming yourself (physically or emotionally) then that's an addiction. There was a talk posted a few days ago here by Dr Gabor Mate about addiction: https://youtu.be/vMstO3U4sVw https://youtu.be/vMstO3U4sVw (Skip the 10 min intro, then watch at least the first hour) His views are very different from the mainstream US view of addiction being substance abuse that can be fixed by restricting access to the drugs.

Technically 6y ago

> correlation does not equal causation. Ok, but where is your argument that this is positive for mental health? Why show up half-assed? Brave new world is obviously a dystopia. > but if there was a VR internet those could go away. What the fuck? Are you serious or just have no clue how other humans work?

jodrellblank 6y ago

> "Brave New World predicted this. We are removed from community and it is scary so we find one on the internet and we go all in." That isn't how I remember Brave New World; it was about amusing ourselves to death with trivia instead of dealing with "important" things, but the sense of community in it was pretty strong - people grew up with and lived with the same local group of people, worked together, played Centrifugal Bumble-Puppy together, orgied together, and took soma to keep them all content. The main complaint they all had was why Bernard couldn't just be happy and join in the community. Brave New World celebrated the twist-reveal where Bernard learns that exile to Iceland isn't a gulag but is really joining a distant group of people who don't like the society and want to live their own way like he does. I'm never sure if that should be taken at face value, or if it was a lie and the place was really a prison camp, but let's assume it was an honest and accurate reveal - that would be the opposite of your complaint, Bernard was lost and scared at having no community, was pushed toward a remote one he might fit in, and the book is all about how great that is that he doesn't have to waste his life doing just what the people around him are doing and that he can feel closer aligned with a group across the world than someone right next to him, and should take advantage of that. > "An escape from forever war all around us" The forever war was 1984, and that's not about Winston joining the Marines to find meaning in his life, it's about using the two minutes' hate to reinforce tribe membership by uniting everyone against a hate figure/group, and the strong (IngSoc) beating down the weak (objectors) until everyone is stamped into the same shape (boot on human face / industrial machine moulding stamp), the reveal at the end of 1984 isn't that Winston joined the Marines and escaped the forever war like Bernard escaped the trivia, it's that Winston came to love Big Brother and agree with everything good that Big Brother is and was and always would be, it's the equivalent of Bernard taking the soma and blending into the society and agreeing it was right all along, it's one or other of your Maga hat and Antifa supporter becoming overwhelmingly dominant, the state enforcing it, and the other being subsumed by it and liking it until there isn't anything else. > "internet/phone addiction is not a problem its a solution. I guess war is inescapable." Hence the Yin-Yang forever circling each other. There's no solution to whether white or black is better, or whether matter or energy is better, or whether hot is better than cold, both books posit an end - one that is either agreeable or disagreeable to the reader, but an end nonetheless - real life doesn't have ends it has circles, loops, repeats, back and forths, changing fortunes, ups and downs, births and deaths. Maga hat and Antifa supporter both love their America, and their America doesn't include murdering thy neighbor. They might "want to kill each other" but each would like the other one realising how dumb they are and changing sides.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

scythe 6y ago

>And that a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill eachother. You seem to be ignoring the possibility that these people come to these ideologies because of the Internet, which leads to the hollowing-out of community coherence that you mention.

throwaway92389 6y ago

> a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill each other There's even a dedicated reddit for this fallacy. https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM

m00x 6y ago

You say that correlation doesn't equal causation, then throw out theories with no research to back it up. Could you be a bit more scientific with your argument?

bumby 6y ago

>Marines do have an answer, although with a great cost. Do you mean an individual cost or societal cost? I think one of the ironies about the human condition is that we value things that we’ve sacrificed toward much more than the things we have not. E.g., Marines have esprit de corps in part because of their sacrifices not despite them. The strongest connections are often made through hardship. To think we can have that connection without a cost doesn’t seem congruent with how we’re wired

friendlybus 6y ago
The marines come with an individual cost that is frequently less valued than service in the army or airforce.
- throwaway201103 6y ago
  What do you mean less valued? My impression is that the Marines are the most respected of the services. (I am not serving nor a veteran of any armed service).
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    I don't want to tell tales out of school or anything. I've met an ex-marine who suffered damage in training and stories from internet videos all corroborate the general story. The marines are the offensive branch, and the individuals get treated poorly. You get a lot of respect for your title, but other branches have a better quality of life and better jobs available. https://youtu.be/UMoLKLM8SMg https://youtu.be/UMoLKLM8SMg Fun story time by an ex-air force guy who was going to join up to the marines (4:30).
    - bumby 6y ago
      Counter to this anecdote, I’ve met a reasonable number of Air Force, Navy, and Army who retrospectively wished they joined the Marines. I’ve never met a Marine who wished they joined another branch (with the exception of when other branches offered even more difficult opportunities Marines didn’t, like before MARSOC was established)

meowster 6y ago

The US Marines recruiting commercial mentioned: https://youtube.com/watch?v=bCjEV75F2tM https://youtube.com/watch?v=bCjEV75F2tM

paulryanrogers 6y ago

> That still wouldnt fix the problem that you might feel closer to someone across the world than someone right next to you. Wait, is it a problem that some have remote friendships that are closer than those physically near them? If so why? Which isn't too say proximity is bad. It can be a relationship enhancer, and so can distance.

ehnto 6y ago
I think it was just an example of how little we can be connected to our local community. It's not bad in itself, and you can likely have both strong remote relationships and strong community ties at the same time.

kace91 6y ago

> And that a Maga hat and Antifa supporter might be neighbors but want to kill eachother. That Maga hat and antifa might not be as opposed in views if they talked to each other. The problem is that we've reduced friction for finding like minded people so far that it's not worth it to go through the unpleasantness of talking with strangers.

ehnto 6y ago
The platform also magnifies shallow thought from a minority of contributors. One of the signals we use to mediate our thoughts is how we think our cohorts feel about something, this is even more true for people without much critical thinking skill. An individual can have extreme views and end up inside an echochamber that makes them think they're in the company of millions when in reality it's just a handful of others (and probably some bot accounts).

xapata 6y ago

> Que [Helpfully] I believe you meant "cue." https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cue https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cue