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For more context check out [0], which had a major discussion when it was posted. In short, the source code of Maps.me is open source and people are working on b

For more context check out [0], which had a major discussion when it was posted. In short, the source code of Maps.me is open source and people are working on building from that, yet the Maps.me you find in the play store isn't the same as the one so many people recommend. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25515004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25515004

creato 6y ago
This kind of garbage is why open source software can't compete with the likes of Google. I started out reading this comment chain thinking "great, I'm going to try maps.me". 10 seconds later, I've learned I can't just try it, I have to find the right fork, of which I see several, each with people mentioning serious caveats. And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster?
- ptero 6y ago
  There are benefits to dictatorships in software, which can help avoid fragmentation and give customers "the one right choice". However, such dictatorships tend to falter and fail as the desire to serve the masses with a simple, yet effective option morphs into disregard of user preferences and rent seeking as those users are locked in. Google is a powerhouse today, but that power is built on a lot of the open source software (e.g., Android) that you claim cannot compete. I am willing to bet a significant sum of money that within the next 10 years Google (which by now forgot its "do not be evil" origins) will be successfully challenged on both the search and the mapping fronts by an upstart leveraging some open source software. My 2c.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  Proprietary software doesn't have the same or worse garbage? At least this way when the "vendor" went bad, the users were only annoyed instead of fucked. I'll take "this kind of garbage" Every Single Day to the end of time.
- MayeulC 6y ago
  Come on, this has nothing to do with it being open source, rather the contrary. The same thing could happen (and has) with proprietary software, and you are then out of luck. With open source? Use the last known good version, fix wat you need to, even if you are the only one person on earth interested in that piece of software. Maintain it. Or just find someone else who is doing it (that's a "fork"). I've stopped using a lot of proprietary software and apps due to this, though examples are fading from my memory. On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer and Touchpal that went down the Adware hole. Nowadays I only use FLOSS. Not even GAPPS. OSMAnd (which I donate to) is pretty nice and featurefull, it suits me as a maps power user, but it can be a bit daunting. There used to be a maps.me fork on F-Droid, but it was recently removed: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/diffs https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/d... Looks like the maps.me community is reorganizing, and hopefully it will re-emerge stronger and more resilient that it was before. Also, lessons learned with this might be useful to other projects. > And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster? This is the reason why you should pick a project with strong guarantees: https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian leads to https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution Only running open source software is my way of making sure I can escape lock-in and always have a way out.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    > On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer […] that went down the Adware hole. The paid version of ES File Explorer is better than ever. (Though sadly neither version seems to be available on F-Droid…) Free software is free as in freedom, not (necessarily) as in free beer. Developers have to eat too : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
    - MayeulC 6y ago
      I agree, and I bought plenty of both paid and open source apps in the past. But I find that having the source code offers stronger guarantees than a receipt (some paid-for proprietary software also let me down, if only for becoming abandonware), that's why I only use proprietary software if it's in a comoditized niche with plenty of interoperable alternatives. For instance, I bought every "simple mobile tool" app (from Tibor Kaputa) on the play store (even though I don't use Google Play, at least they are in my family library), as well as OSMAnd plus its plugins. I also bought some open source games on Steam, such as mindustry. Krita is there as well, but I prefer donating directly to KDE. I am totally in favor of paying devs, though I generally prefer to make anonymous donations, trough liberapay (unfortunately not tax-deductible) for instance, as a way to cut the middle-man, (I tend to spend more than 600€ a year on free software donations, which is not negligible to me: almost half a monthly salary). I don't really understand your point, to be honest: ES is "abolutely proprietary" as far as I know, so it won't be available on F-droid. I was trying to come up with examples of proprietary software that changed under me. Source access is a must for me, this is about freedom, not price. I also have trust issues with proprietary software.
- otabdeveloper4 6y ago
  Maps.me isn't really "open source software". It's a commercial entity and one of the most popular mapping applications in the world. (Definitely #1 for navigating on foot.) The point is that yeah, competing with Google in some field that isn't integral to Google's advertising business is quite possible and realistic. There are real-world examples.
  - pfalcon 6y ago
    Never heard about it. Using OsmAnd for "on foot", bike, motorbike, car, train, flight, sail for 10 years or so.
  - matkoniecz 6y ago
    1) it is open source with at least Android app published under Apache-2.0 License ( https://github.com/mapsme/omim https://github.com/mapsme/omim is still up) 2) commercial entity often develop open source software, this dychotomy is false 3) mapy.cz is strictly superior for hiking, and for most of foot navigation (at least in my opinion)
TulliusCicero 6y ago
Ah okay, I just downloaded the one on the play store and it did seem pretty bad? I mean initially it felt alright glancing around, but as soon as I searched for "chinese restaurant" it just immediately fell over and did nothing useful.
- pastage 6y ago
  That might be down to data i.e. OSM being crappy in your area or the app being bad... Hard to tell, it worked for me back when the app was with its original developer. So maybe browse around on osm.org in the same area to see if you have data in your area.
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    I live in a major European city (Munich), so the data being that bad would strike me as a sort of indictment. Based on how people talk, I thought big European cities would be one of the strongest types of areas. I tried out your idea -- I went to the official site, openstreetmap.org, zoomed in onto my neighborhood, and then searched for "Chinese restaurant" in the search. It returned a result for a place apparently literally named "Chinese Restaurant" in Portland, OR. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
    - pastage 6y ago
      I love OSM but what you say is correct, search is hard, or rather no one cares about the search part of OSM. That is why you need to browse around on the map to judge data quality, and even then you might nor see all that is there. The data is usually there if you live in europe, it's just hard to search. There are two related things that make it hard, bad tagging of the data and the extreme diversity of data. E.g. this winter I've used osmand to find fire pits, it was a great way to use the data but there seems to lots of ways to tag firepits so a search might not find all of them.
  - matkoniecz 6y ago
    Not sure why TulliusCicero is downvoted. POI quality is the worst part of OSM, Nominatim has quite weak search and POI Nominatim search is hilariously bad.

creato 6y ago

This kind of garbage is why open source software can't compete with the likes of Google. I started out reading this comment chain thinking "great, I'm going to try maps.me". 10 seconds later, I've learned I can't just try it, I have to find the right fork, of which I see several, each with people mentioning serious caveats. And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster?

ptero 6y ago
There are benefits to dictatorships in software, which can help avoid fragmentation and give customers "the one right choice". However, such dictatorships tend to falter and fail as the desire to serve the masses with a simple, yet effective option morphs into disregard of user preferences and rent seeking as those users are locked in. Google is a powerhouse today, but that power is built on a lot of the open source software (e.g., Android) that you claim cannot compete. I am willing to bet a significant sum of money that within the next 10 years Google (which by now forgot its "do not be evil" origins) will be successfully challenged on both the search and the mapping fronts by an upstart leveraging some open source software. My 2c.
Brian_K_White 6y ago
Proprietary software doesn't have the same or worse garbage? At least this way when the "vendor" went bad, the users were only annoyed instead of fucked. I'll take "this kind of garbage" Every Single Day to the end of time.
MayeulC 6y ago
Come on, this has nothing to do with it being open source, rather the contrary. The same thing could happen (and has) with proprietary software, and you are then out of luck. With open source? Use the last known good version, fix wat you need to, even if you are the only one person on earth interested in that piece of software. Maintain it. Or just find someone else who is doing it (that's a "fork"). I've stopped using a lot of proprietary software and apps due to this, though examples are fading from my memory. On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer and Touchpal that went down the Adware hole. Nowadays I only use FLOSS. Not even GAPPS. OSMAnd (which I donate to) is pretty nice and featurefull, it suits me as a maps power user, but it can be a bit daunting. There used to be a maps.me fork on F-Droid, but it was recently removed: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/diffs https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/7951/d... Looks like the maps.me community is reorganizing, and hopefully it will re-emerge stronger and more resilient that it was before. Also, lessons learned with this might be useful to other projects. > And who knows when the currently best fork will get taken over by the next wallet software huckster? This is the reason why you should pick a project with strong guarantees: https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian leads to https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution Only running open source software is my way of making sure I can escape lock-in and always have a way out.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  > On Android, I think I can name at least ES file explorer […] that went down the Adware hole. The paid version of ES File Explorer is better than ever. (Though sadly neither version seems to be available on F-Droid…) Free software is free as in freedom, not (necessarily) as in free beer. Developers have to eat too : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.en.html
  - MayeulC 6y ago
    I agree, and I bought plenty of both paid and open source apps in the past. But I find that having the source code offers stronger guarantees than a receipt (some paid-for proprietary software also let me down, if only for becoming abandonware), that's why I only use proprietary software if it's in a comoditized niche with plenty of interoperable alternatives. For instance, I bought every "simple mobile tool" app (from Tibor Kaputa) on the play store (even though I don't use Google Play, at least they are in my family library), as well as OSMAnd plus its plugins. I also bought some open source games on Steam, such as mindustry. Krita is there as well, but I prefer donating directly to KDE. I am totally in favor of paying devs, though I generally prefer to make anonymous donations, trough liberapay (unfortunately not tax-deductible) for instance, as a way to cut the middle-man, (I tend to spend more than 600€ a year on free software donations, which is not negligible to me: almost half a monthly salary). I don't really understand your point, to be honest: ES is "abolutely proprietary" as far as I know, so it won't be available on F-droid. I was trying to come up with examples of proprietary software that changed under me. Source access is a must for me, this is about freedom, not price. I also have trust issues with proprietary software.
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
Maps.me isn't really "open source software". It's a commercial entity and one of the most popular mapping applications in the world. (Definitely #1 for navigating on foot.) The point is that yeah, competing with Google in some field that isn't integral to Google's advertising business is quite possible and realistic. There are real-world examples.
- pfalcon 6y ago
  Never heard about it. Using OsmAnd for "on foot", bike, motorbike, car, train, flight, sail for 10 years or so.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  1) it is open source with at least Android app published under Apache-2.0 License ( https://github.com/mapsme/omim https://github.com/mapsme/omim is still up) 2) commercial entity often develop open source software, this dychotomy is false 3) mapy.cz is strictly superior for hiking, and for most of foot navigation (at least in my opinion)

TulliusCicero 6y ago

Ah okay, I just downloaded the one on the play store and it did seem pretty bad? I mean initially it felt alright glancing around, but as soon as I searched for "chinese restaurant" it just immediately fell over and did nothing useful.

pastage 6y ago
That might be down to data i.e. OSM being crappy in your area or the app being bad... Hard to tell, it worked for me back when the app was with its original developer. So maybe browse around on osm.org in the same area to see if you have data in your area.
- TulliusCicero 6y ago
  I live in a major European city (Munich), so the data being that bad would strike me as a sort of indictment. Based on how people talk, I thought big European cities would be one of the strongest types of areas. I tried out your idea -- I went to the official site, openstreetmap.org, zoomed in onto my neighborhood, and then searched for "Chinese restaurant" in the search. It returned a result for a place apparently literally named "Chinese Restaurant" in Portland, OR. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
  - pastage 6y ago
    I love OSM but what you say is correct, search is hard, or rather no one cares about the search part of OSM. That is why you need to browse around on the map to judge data quality, and even then you might nor see all that is there. The data is usually there if you live in europe, it's just hard to search. There are two related things that make it hard, bad tagging of the data and the extreme diversity of data. E.g. this winter I've used osmand to find fire pits, it was a great way to use the data but there seems to lots of ways to tag firepits so a search might not find all of them.
- matkoniecz 6y ago
  Not sure why TulliusCicero is downvoted. POI quality is the worst part of OSM, Nominatim has quite weak search and POI Nominatim search is hilariously bad.